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Dionysodorus wrote:

fresus wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
Considering the Ulthwe trait: A 6+ is always a 16.66% chance, as it is 1/6 equally propable results. If you wanna take into account diminishing returns though, say the save a unit already has, that gets lower but not more. It also depends on the save a unit has, the ap of the attack and special rules like 2d6 pick the highest.
The -1 to hit for the enemy on the other hand can reduce the volume of enemy shooting by 20% for 2+ to hit, 25% for 3+, 33% for 4+ and 50% for 5+. Still it modifies the individual result of a single die rolled by 16.66%.

Both Ulthwe and Alaitoc increase durability. Ulthwe is a flat 16.67% for all units against all damage, always. True it does not stack with Fortune or Spirit Stones but that just means you don't take either of those in your army.

About the Ulthwe thing, it's indeed a flat 1/6 for everyone, against weapons with 1 damage. It actually gets a bit more complicated with multi-damage weapons.
For instance, when shooting a 2D weapon at 1W models, the models only survive if they pass both 6+ rolls, so it only increase durability by 1/36. But against 2W models, a model survives if it passes at least one roll, so 30.5% of the time. A lot of 2D shots against such a unit doesn't actually reduce casualties by 30.5%, because the weapon can end up reducing wounds by 0, 1, or 2, to models that can have either 1 or 2 wounds left, so it gets a bit tricky to calculate the exact improvements.

This trait is actually best when your multi-wound models are getting one shot by weapons that don't normally overkill (so mostly 2W models against 2D weapons). So if you often find yourself in that position (lots of bike vs lots of plasma for instance), it's something to consider.

For 2-wound models getting hit by 2 damage weapons, it's a ~31.8% increase in durability (i.e. you need 1.318 shots for every 1 you needed before to kill the model). This is very similar to the impact of the Alatoic trait on BS3+.

I did the calculation just for fun, but found a 32.25% increase in durability. Well, it doesn't really matter since the ballpark is correct.

fresus wrote:
About the Ulthwe thing, it's indeed a flat 1/6 for everyone, against weapons with 1 damage. It actually gets a bit more complicated with multi-damage weapons.
For instance, when shooting a 2D weapon at 1W models, the models only survive if they pass both 6+ rolls, so it only increase durability by 1/36.

If my opponent is shooting multi-wound weapons against my 1W infantry instead of against my Vehicles or Wraith units, either I am winning because he is using the wrong tool for the job or I am dying because all my tough stuff is dead. Either way I don't really see it as a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, Alatoic or Ulthwe for a Wraith army? Iyanden doesnt really support them anymore rules wise, other than the one strategem. Saim Hann doesnt really work, nor does Biel Tan.

It depends to some extent what else is in your army but overall I would go for Ulthwe. Wraithguard have a maximum threat range of 12" which means in order to be doing their job, they need to be operating at a range where Alaitoc gives no bonuses so Ulthwe is the way to go. If you have the points for a separate detachment, an Alaitoc firebase of Reapers led by an Autarch should be quite cheap and punchy.

I have the reverse view point. If my army wants to operate within 12" range then I actually really like Alaitoc as it benefits me whilst I am closing to within that range.

Also, opponent isn't going to have everything within 12" of me even if I am within 12" of my target unit(s). Therefore even at 12" it will still benefit me against those enemy units further away.

It also encourage the enemy to close within my optimal weapon ranges to get inside the 12" range, which again benefits me.

It is especially useful if the Eldar player takes Footdar, as it's gives the benefit for typically longer as you close that gap.

Finally, against heavy weapons that suffer the -1 to hit if they move, they have the awkward dychotomy whereby if they move to be within 12" they get -1. If they stay still outside of the 12", they get -1. So they suffer either way.

That to me is good all round for me regardless of whether it's a Guardian or a Reaper.

Final spoiler is up.
-1 to hit at more than 12" for any unit. Any unit.
No restriction for previously having -1 to hit already.

Good times.

I hope Conceal is changed to not affecting Hemlocks. Remove the "affects the psyker" part and it's all good, all the other psykers will still affect themselves since they're infantry or bikers.

The bigger news (imo) are the dramatic points drop for rangers and the fire prism buff. 60 point rangers make great objective holders and battalion fillers. The wording was interesting but it looks like they may have lost their native -1 to hit?

Two prisms with linked fire will tear some things up. The double shots and re-rolls are strong. 4 lance shots that re-roll everything, not shabby.

Alaitoc is the clear winner by leaps and bounds, I feel like there should be an exception for Flyers because -2 to hit is too strong. -3 on concealed Hemlock is busted.

Rangers dropping 8 points, hallelujah!! That kind of reduction really gives me hope for the internal balance of the new dex. Fire Prisms look far improved too!

Alaitoc Shadow Spectres. That is all.

Okay, so how good are Rangers and Fire Prisms now, really? Let's investigate.

12 point Rangers obviously still shoot much worse than Ratlings or Elysian Snipers. The Ratlings are 70% more shooty.

Of course they're far more durable than Ratlings. Assuming their cloaks still work the same way, outside of 12" Alatoic Rangers (and why would your Rangers be anything else?) take half as many hits from even BS3+, and a third as many from BS4+. Then they have 3+ saves instead of 5+ saves and T3 instead of T2. So they're about 190% more durable per point against distant bolter fire, or 90% more durable at close range.

Elysian Snipers are still more durable than the Rangers, though, since they have two wounds each, on top of being more shooty.

So Alatoic Rangers strike me as being pretty good. They're really nowhere near Elysians but are probably pretty comparable to Ratlings.

Meanwhile Fire Prisms can shoot twice. Let's compare to a Russ. A standard Leman Russ is cheaper and T8. The battle cannon is clearly better than the dispersed prism cannon. It's BS4+ with d6 shots S8 AP-2 vs BS3+ d3 shots S9 AP-4 for the focused mode. The Prism is significantly better against a Land Raider or a Russ but only a little better against a Razorback. You'll still never use the Lance mode. The Russ strikes me as generally more appealing but it's close -- a big problem for the Prism is that it still won't want to move.

That said, with 2 or more Prisms the stratagem becomes pretty appealing. Re-rolling hits and wounds means a 77% increase in output. 2 Prisms expect to kill a Russ or a Predator in one turn.

 Khaine wrote:
Alaitoc is the clear winner by leaps and bounds, I feel like there should be an exception for Flyers because -2 to hit is too strong. -3 on concealed Hemlock is busted.

Rangers dropping 8 points, hallelujah!! That kind of reduction really gives me hope for the internal balance of the new dex. Fire Prisms look far improved too!

Admech Dragoons are -2 to hit outside 12" as well, but admittedly aren't anywhere near as potent as on a flyer.

So take 2 Prisms, deploy them all out of LoS. Move one of them out 6-7" to target a unit. Use the Linked Fire stratagem to fire 4x at the target re-rolling hits and wounds. Then use the Fire and Fade stratagem to move the first Prism back out of LoS.

Viable tactic?

One thing to consider that we talked about in the admech thread is that not only is -2 to hit a great defence, it also means overcharged plasma will kill it's bearer on a roll of a 3 instead of a 1!

 Galef wrote:
So take 2 Prisms, deploy them all out of LoS. Move one of them out 6-7" to target a unit. Use the Linked Fire stratagem to fire 4x at the target re-rolling hits and wounds. Then use the Fire and Fade stratagem to move the first Prism back out of LoS.

Viable tactic?

I'm not sure that you particularly want to be in a position where you have to move one of them, and then I doubt you want to spend a CP to move it back. I mean, I'm sure this can make sense with dense terrain against an immobile gunline, but what are we talking about here? They've got 60" range and if either one can see something then both can shoot it, so just deploy them on top of ruins deep in your deployment zone and go to town, right?

I'm pretty sure the second prism is still the one doing the firing; it just gets the rerolls as well.

How I read it, at least.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I'm pretty sure the second prism is still the one doing the firing; it just gets the rerolls as well.

How I read it, at least.

They each roll to hit using their own BS and movement modifier, but the second one can ignore range and LoS.

As I posted a bit ago, I think this level of reduction in ranger points makes them a desirable take for the generation of command points. 60 point durable troop squad that can set up on any objective is a great value, even if their firepower is wanting. But they will serve a very useful function anyway, killing critical small units like maelific lords or commissars (which are lynchpin units for two of the top tier armies) and chipping away over a few turns at scarier units.

I could easily see taking 3 units or maybe even 6 units if I desperately wanted an even higher level of command points. Unless dire avengers drop sub 13, I think rangers will be the go-to for troops. One of the biggest things eldar needed was a cheap-ish spammable troop unit and rangers at 12 points will fit that pretty well. This is probably the most meaningful change they've made in the previews.

12 ppm Rangers in this edition definitely have a role.

Guardians, even as is, have their place (but aren't fantastic).

If DAs go back to 13ppm (everything else seems to be reverting the Index...), but keep the free 4++ Exarch, they'll be better than average, too.

All our troops being good? Unpossible.

I'm not sure why anyone would take 13 ppm DAs over the other choices, but otherwise sure.

Yeah, Rangers dropping so much in points really helps the detachment options.

Prism changes look good, but I wouldn't be sure about discounting Lance yet - we haven't seen if profiles change. I'm hopeful that bad profiles that never have a use (Wraithknight Fists hello) will be looked at too.

Assuming nothing else changes?

-Guardians are best for either Serpent drops to rip hard targets, or backfield deterrent with a potshotting brightlance. Neither is brilliant, but both definitely have their uses.

-Rangers are cheaper backfield for "safe" objectives. If you think the enemy might get up close to them, Guardians do it better. But For taking some incidental fire and not costing points, Rangers are the better option in that case. Further, if you need to snipe Commies or the last wound on an HQ or something.

-DAs suck at backfielding. But if you want them to advance on the enemy and skirmish, they can do good work. 18" range makes them less dependent on Serpents. 4+ armor and a free 2W 4++ Exarch makes them a little more durable than Guardians. Still die fast, but if you're running a diverse Aspect Host, they take heat off of your other aspects. And add more bodies in the final phases of the game if you tend to assualt then. Also, you can get 2 5 or 6 man DA units into a Serpent, if you want a more durable Serpent drop. Or one DA unit and a FD unit.

So:
-Safe backfield: Rangers
-Threatened backfield: Guardians w/ Weapons Platform
-"cheap" Serpent drop: Guardians
-Footdar Aspect support: DAs

See, all 3 troops have a role!

(Note - anyone who reminds me that Storm Guardians are technically an option will be ignored.)

Dionysodorus wrote:
I'm not sure why anyone would take 13 ppm DAs over the other choices, but otherwise sure.

The one thing DAs always get that stormies and defenders don't get is minimum unit size 5. So even at a higher ppm, it's a lower overall troop tax than guardians, and now in 8th you can throw two units into a serpent to reduce deployment drops and still have room for characters.

If DAs are more than rangers, though, then might as well take rangers. I get the feeling GW online will probably be sold out of ranger kits by morning.

Also, a couple 5-man DAs do a better mopup job for squads down to a couple guys than other troops. So FDs or Spiders drop a Tac or Guardsman squad down to 2 or 3, those 5-mans are nice.

We know they're going down to at most 15ppm, but currently at 17ppm, 10 Guardian Defenders are cheaper. Storm Guardians even cheaper.

With Dire Avengers it just really matters how much you value their extra range. Obviously Avenger Catapults aren't worth as much as a twin catapult. Are they worth a 3-shot catapult? If you value them at 50% more than a regular catapult, then a 5-man Avenger squad which costs 65 points including the dual-wielding Exarch is probably worth it over Guardians. But if you think they're only about 20% better than a regular catapult (i.e. you'd trade them for a shuriken catapult that re-rolls wounds of 1 or something like that) then you probably want to pay at most 60 for the squad. Of course this is assuming that you're choosing between them and Guardians and not them and something else entirely -- if you think Guardians aren't very good as-is then you'll want cheaper DAs.

Which is why my Footdar prefers DAs (although not at 17ppm, still take them because fluff), but my heavy-support-heavy lists prefer Guardians.

Assuming they get a price reduction to 13 ppm, 2 x 5 DA in a Wave Serpent can compete with the 10 Guardians imo. For 50 points you get:
- 4+ save, 6"s of range, 5+ overwatch
- better ld and morale resistance from two squads
- two free 2W 4++ exarchs
- more potential for command point generation

The last point is particularly important to me. Our Troops are not amazing and getting the compulsory choices out of of the way as efficiently as possible seems ideal.

Guardians are just bad. They aren't durable, they aren't cheap and they aren't offensive. A 5 man ranger squad in cover is tougher and cheaper than a 10 man guardian squad now. While they have more firepower than the ranger squad, the rangers are likely to get out more wounds in the right spots due to their range and the ability to shoot at individual models. What will guardians do that couldn't be better accomplished by another unit? Rangers are better at holding backfield objectives and cheaper for command points. Plus they actually serve a role nothing else in the army does (this is an edition where shooting cheap command characters has value). Wraith units are much better to fit in a serpent as forward short range attack units. Guardians needed a point drop, they didn't get it.

Dire Avengers will depend on their point drop, but they will need a drastic one to be good. Even at 14 ppm they are too thin for how much offence they provide. Comparing them to something like a Marauder Plasma squad (45 points for comparable toughness, a plasma pistol and two plasma guns) should make you cry (as they would be 70 points at 14 ppm). Yes, Marauder plasma squads are one of the best units right now of their kind, but the different is so dramatic it's hard to think. I would probably not consider dire avengers to be good, solid, worth taking as a standard until they were 10 ppm. Their role as aggressive units popping out of a serpent is better done by wraithguard, objectives better done by rangers.


Also another point for rangers is their benefit from Doom. Did you doom a unit only to have just barely not enough shooting to finish it off? Well, throw two squads of ranger shooting at almost any target on the board and you're very likely to see a couple of mortal and regular wounds, enough to finish off even things like primarchs or vehicles. For the ynarri folks, they'll also be great for finishing off a unit on the verge of triggering SfD.

Noticed they managed to wock-comble the wording on Pulsed discharge


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Alaitoc Shadow Spectres. That is all.

you forgot their bff Jeff the Jetbike Warlock, understandable as he casts Conceal a lot

Alaitoc flier detachment.

Fanctionwide deepstrike/infiltration stratagems are confirmed on stream just now! Nice! Webway Strike is 1-3 units (presumably infantry/bikers) in the webway for 1-3 command points, infiltration stratagem. The second one allows a vehicle to deep strike, called Cloud Strike.

 Khaine wrote:
Fanctionwide deepstrike stratagems are confirmed on stream just now! Nice!

To be clear, they said that the one that applies to infantry is an infiltration stratagem, which is a lot worse for shooting units than deep strike. The deep strike stratagem is for vehicles (presumably with Fly).

18" range Warp Time for Runes of Battle.