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Lemondish wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Some of the changes I had seen are not being put into this game update. There are still lots, and lots, of changes. But, not the gravity that I had originally seen.

That's unfortunate. Why do you think they weren't included here? Able to share anything else?

I really can't, other than just be patient.

I will say that I feel GW has an understanding of the core problems in 8th.

I would imagine that we'll start seeing more leaks pretty soon anyways. It's clear that more eyes have been hitting this year's Chapter Approved, and that means more opportunity for details to slip out. If we wait, we'll probably see more pretty soon. Still, we can speculate based on these leaks (assuming they are legitimate) as to what's to come.

 Marmatag wrote:
I really can't, other than just be patient.

I will say that I feel GW has an understanding of the core problems in 8th.

Hemlock nerf confirmed.

 Marmatag wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Some of the changes I had seen are not being put into this game update. There are still lots, and lots, of changes. But, not the gravity that I had originally seen.

That's unfortunate. Why do you think they weren't included here? Able to share anything else?

I really can't, other than just be patient.

I will say that I feel GW has an understanding of the core problems in 8th.

that's right! We need to nerf necrons!

Tyel wrote:
Hemlock nerf confirmed.

Already happened once with a points increase, will happen again when Alaitoc gets changed to +1 Cover. Anything more is overkill, which GW seems to (thankfully) not be doing a whole lot of these days as they realize that small changes to many units is far, far better than big changes to a few

Ctanforlife wrote:
that's right! We need to nerf necrons!

The only leak so far only mentions the super heavy, which is almost universal considered undercosted and powerful. There is NOTHING to indicate the rest of the Necron units are receiving anything similar

-

 Marmatag wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Some of the changes I had seen are not being put into this game update. There are still lots, and lots, of changes. But, not the gravity that I had originally seen.

That's unfortunate. Why do you think they weren't included here? Able to share anything else?

I really can't, other than just be patient.

I will say that I feel GW has an understanding of the core problems in 8th.

So, if I understand correctly, you saw an earlier version of CA that got tweaked before this one?

Karol wrote:

The Newman wrote:


I'd be on board with that, especially if it came with a price drop for Marine Captains and Lieutenants. I'd also seriously be on board with nerfing Bobby G into the dirt* if it meant the other SM chapters (and Ultramarines for that matter) could be properly pointed.

* I actually think just banning named characters from competitive play altogether and rebalancing all the books around the generic characters is the better plan though. Bobby G might be the worst offender but every named character specific to a chapter/house/klan/forge world/craftworld/whatever causes shades of the problem. Better to just eliminate the root cause and restrict those big names to narrative play.

But special characters make up 100% of GK non GM NDK HQs that get taken. The generic master, and specially the librarian just plain suck, the champion and the chaplain make no sense for the points they cost, they could drop them 20pts each and they would still be bad. And the techmarine is a real gem, twice the cost of a normal techmarine, no bike option, no conversion beamer and a bad psychic power .

Plus unline other marines we don't get a functional chapter tactic rule.

I explicitly call out the need to rebalance all of the books around the generic characters (I highlighted that text in the original post) so I don't believe the status of GK's non-character HQ choices is a valid reason to disagree with my position. If the named characters are no longer part of the balance discussion then GK would obviously need improvements to it's generic HQ choices along with all the other improvements it already needs.

 Marmatag wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Some of the changes I had seen are not being put into this game update. There are still lots, and lots, of changes. But, not the gravity that I had originally seen.

That's unfortunate. Why do you think they weren't included here? Able to share anything else?

I really can't, other than just be patient.

I will say that I feel GW has an understanding of the core problems in 8th.

Will do. In the meantime I need to get friends like yours - an inside look at their process would be fascinating.

Lemondish wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Some of the changes I had seen are not being put into this game update. There are still lots, and lots, of changes. But, not the gravity that I had originally seen.

That's unfortunate. Why do you think they weren't included here? Able to share anything else?

I really can't, other than just be patient.

I will say that I feel GW has an understanding of the core problems in 8th.

Will do. In the meantime I need to get friends like yours - an inside look at their process would be fascinating.

Honestly I love when they include Designer notes so you get that little insight into why they do things

Scrounged these from bolter & chainsword from a guy who got them from reddit warhammer competitive. Not sure if any of this is true so take with a mountain of salt.

Source: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/351229-chapter-approved-2018-ups-and-nerfs/page-3

Repulsor 185
Primaris captain 78
Captain in gravis 90

Twin las to 40
Land raider to 200 (redeemer 180)
Be'Lakor 240
Terminators 23
Repulsor 185
Drop Pods 63

23 for the base price Terminator is only a 3 point discount. Still better than nothing I guess but not the greatest way to fix them.

Twin Lascannons at 40 suggests a drop to Guard prices for Marine weapons. That would put a Land Raider to 296 and a Termie around 33. That's not terrible.

More than anything I want see marine vehicles fixed. My fingers are crossed so hard they’re starting to cramp.

If Predators become super cheap to field I'll start allying them to my Deathwatch at least. Either that or I invest into LasBacks.

So with a storm bolter a pod will be 65.thats pretty tempting...

 fraser1191 wrote:
So with a storm bolter a pod will be 65.thats pretty tempting...

Eh. I still wouldn't be tempted, it is still easy to kill the contents of the Drop Pod. And since they immobile and can't fall back, it just takes a single Guardsmen/Cultist in a squad to make a charge while the rest of the unit daisy chains back onto an objective.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So with a storm bolter a pod will be 65.thats pretty tempting...

Eh. I still wouldn't be tempted, it is still easy to kill the contents of the Drop Pod. And since they immobile and can't fall back, it just takes a single Guardsmen/Cultist in a squad to make a charge while the rest of the unit daisy chains back onto an objective.

Wut? It's no different from native deep strike.

If Cultists and Guardsmen really do go up to 5 ppm, and the corresponding PA troops (CSM and Tacticals) go down to 11-12, that could seriously change some lists. Some of the other changes seem like they won't affect that much. Shining Spears going up by 3 won't make them suddenly bad; they'll just be closer to fair instead of being undercosted. Same thing we saw with Dark Reapers last year; you still see them in lists. Crisis Suits dropping to 30 points won't make them good, unfortunately, unless the weapons go down as well. And if they change the -1 to hit traits to being counts as in cover, Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies VIII and Alaitoc will suddenly all be useless. The first 3 have already been nerfed in their stratagems; they don't need to be hit again.

As for the concerns due to the Necron Tesseract Vault going up by 60-70 points, I would say wait and see. Other rumors have already said that Necrons are getting some points drops. For the sake of Necron players everywhere, I hope they do.

 Galef wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Hemlock nerf confirmed.

Already happened once with a points increase, will happen again when Alaitoc gets changed to +1 Cover. Anything more is overkill, which GW seems to (thankfully) not be doing a whole lot of these days as they realize that small changes to many units is far, far better than big changes to a few

Ctanforlife wrote:
that's right! We need to nerf necrons!

The only leak so far only mentions the super heavy, which is almost universal considered undercosted and powerful. There is NOTHING to indicate the rest of the Necron units are receiving anything similar

-

I'd be okay with no more army wide -1 to hit rules, and instead just having -1 to hit applying to specific units that employ stealth fields.


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Lemondish wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
So with a storm bolter a pod will be 65.thats pretty tempting...

Eh. I still wouldn't be tempted, it is still easy to kill the contents of the Drop Pod. And since they immobile and can't fall back, it just takes a single Guardsmen/Cultist in a squad to make a charge while the rest of the unit daisy chains back onto an objective.

Wut? It's no different from native deep strike.

Isn't there a rule about units locked in CC being unable to claim objectives? If not, there should be. You can't hold an objective while bayonet charging!

 Togusa wrote:
Isn't there a rule about units locked in CC being unable to claim objectives? If not, there should be. You can't hold an objective while bayonet charging!

No thankee. That's an ork staple.

 Togusa wrote:
Isn't there a rule about units locked in CC being unable to claim objectives? If not, there should be. You can't hold an objective while bayonet charging!

I expect GW to shake us down for another 35$ for the privilege if keeping playing their game. The CAs are just like an annual licensing fee for playing 40k.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I expect GW to shake us down for another 35$ for the privilege if keeping playing their game. The CAs are just like an annual licensing fee for playing 40k.

Oh wow, never heard this one before. This is a deep and unique insight that is in no way exactly what people have been saying for two years across two separate game systems.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I expect GW to shake us down for another 35$ for the privilege if keeping playing their game. The CAs are just like an annual licensing fee for playing 40k.

Points changes will be uploaded to battlescribe within days and any rules changes will be available all over the place.

Only people that might need to buy the book are SoB. Even then, there's 1d4chan and battlescribe again.

Hardly a requirement. Very easy to work around.

The Newman wrote:


I explicitly call out the need to rebalance all of the books around the generic characters (I highlighted that text in the original post) so I don't believe the status of GK's non-character HQ choices is a valid reason to disagree with my position. If the named characters are no longer part of the balance discussion then GK would obviously need improvements to it's generic HQ choices along with all the other improvements it already needs.

But they may not update GK for years, so we would get an instant nerf and maybe a buff in the future. Also unlike marines we don't have multiple HQs to replace something like draigo. And if GW decides that GM NDKS are used too often and nerfs them too, we suddenly have 0 valid HQs. Why nerf multiple books, when the real problem is one HQ for one army. just make Gulliman open/narrative only, or make him 5000pts game minimum and the problem will be gone.

Points changes will be uploaded to battlescribe within days and any rules changes will be available all over the place.

Only people that might need to buy the book are SoB. Even then, there's 1d4chan and battlescribe again.

Hardly a requirement. Very easy to work around.

You know, not in every country people have huge homes or gaming clubs. There is a ton of places, where gaming is done at store. You try to play at a store FLGS or GW with a print out of 3 pages of CA, I bet the reaction won't be good most of the time.

Oh wow, never heard this one before. This is a deep and unique insight that is in no way exactly what people have been saying for two years across two separate game systems.

Doesn't make it not true. GW makes bad rules, and then makes people pay for an Errata book.

At my local FLGS there are plenty of substitutes and no one cares how you bring the rules. Many people bring printed out copies of rules and charts because it's easier and less risky than lugging your big heavy expensive fluff laden rules books around.

Also there's a guy at my store who has a WFB undead army with like 5 gw minis in it. The rest are from other lines. No one cares.

Karol wrote:

You know, not in every country people have huge homes or gaming clubs. There is a ton of places, where gaming is done at store. You try to play at a store FLGS or GW with a print out of 3 pages of CA, I bet the reaction won't be good most of the time.

Not the case at my FLGS. Really relaxed environment. Battlescribe lists and printouts everywhere. I generally have everything memorized for my lists at this point. If anything comes into question I'll flip out Battlescribe on my phone or my codex (whichever is quicker). Same goes for majority of players at the store.

Closest GW shop is 20~ miles away. With how you're talking there I don't see myself going to it any time soon. Don't need a rules daddy breathing down my neck because I didn't please his self perceived feelings of 'did you spend enough money on unnecessary GW products?'

I honestly wouldn't want to play at a gw store. I don't like gw's corporate attitude which places profit over customers generally. I'd rather game in an indie store that isn't owed by GW. My local FLGS makes far more money on card games, gw stuff is a sideline for them.

I did have a surprisingly postivie experience ce from gw recently when a box set had a missing tire. They sent me the whole box set in compensation.

Lemondish wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Some of the changes I had seen are not being put into this game update. There are still lots, and lots, of changes. But, not the gravity that I had originally seen.

That's unfortunate. Why do you think they weren't included here? Able to share anything else?

So they can sell you additional books later of course. Over about an 18 month span or so.
And then? They'll claim it's time for a new edition in order to collect all these separate releases, FAQs, errata, etc in one convenient package.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
just make Gulliman open/narrative only, or make him 5000pts game minimum and the problem will be gone.

Ah, but a NEW problem will arise. GW won't sell as many of him. They like selling things.

Ah, but a NEW problem will arise. GW won't sell as many of him. They like selling things.

Then they should either give him, and other problem models, rules that do not break the game. Or failing that give all or most models game breaking rules. If everything is OP, then nothing is OP. GW seems to have a strange way of fixing stuff. They have a problem with deep striking BA captins and dark reapers, but somehow instead of fixing those two units, they nerf deep strike, which boomerang hits factions that really didn't need to get their main method of moving nerfed.

Why don't they just link some options to CP? Gulliman stays the way he is now, as do the Lt or chaptermasters. But the super aura Gulliman has costs CP to activate. He would still be a beat stick with very good stats, but the use of his re-roll aura be less point and click. And if the "nerf" was felt as too big, just let him give some minor buff all the time. Like +1A or Ld buffs. On the flip side the no named characters would have weaker effect auras, maybe even with much smaller range, but those could be 1CP or even 0CP to activate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CatGotYourLas wrote:

Karol wrote:

You know, not in every country people have huge homes or gaming clubs. There is a ton of places, where gaming is done at store. You try to play at a store FLGS or GW with a print out of 3 pages of CA, I bet the reaction won't be good most of the time.

Not the case at my FLGS. Really relaxed environment. Battlescribe lists and printouts everywhere. I generally have everything memorized for my lists at this point. If anything comes into question I'll flip out Battlescribe on my phone or my codex (whichever is quicker). Same goes for majority of players at the store.

Closest GW shop is 20~ miles away. With how you're talking there I don't see myself going to it any time soon. Don't need a rules daddy breathing down my neck because I didn't please his self perceived feelings of 'did you spend enough money on unnecessary GW products?'

There is one GW shop in my entire country. Everyone else plays at FLGS, and I can tell you one thing, in stores the store owners do not like people bringing printed out codex instead of buying them from them. In some cases they even don't let people use digital books.