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Now that the codex has been out for a while now. I know there where several posters that determined what the most competitve Eldar list is. So, I ask the simple question, what have people found to be the most competitve list builds for the Eldar.

-2 falcons, scatter or starcannon, field, vectored, stones, star engines
-2-3 serpents, shuricannon, vectored, stones
-4-5 units of *different* aspects (no duplicates except maybe a second unit of DAs), with exarchs, and maybe a unit of harlies.
-Some bike units with warlocks
-characters on bikes
-(optional) vibrocannons

sounds right, although I like the 2 prism, 1 snakes on plane approach.

Yeah, I also prefer 2 Prisms, 1 Soap, 2-3 Serpents w/ 2 assault based aspects, 1 DA, warlock + jetbikes, chars on jetbikes.

I just think that if you have 2 Prisms you're forcing your opponent to make harder choices about which skimmers to shoot.

What about a competetive list using no AV12 vehicles?

The Wraith

Has anyone tried a Zilla eldar list with an Avatar, 3 Wraithlords, and a bucket load of Harlequins?

A guy at our club is doing well with an "Iyanden" list:
-3 wraithlords, ML & BL
-2 units of 10 wraithguard with conceallocks
-2 farseers (on foot) with fortune
-countarassaulty support units such as spiders, spears, harlequins

A friend of mine is building an Altansar list with lots of Dark Reapers, is there an effective list build for that?

What do you think is the best Falcon/Fire Prism to Wave Serpent comparison if you are going full Mechanized?

Flavius, what does your lists usually look like, as an example?

If I field a great number of Wave Serpents, what should they be filled with?

I just got my harlequin models, so it looks like this now:
-2 falcons, fully loaded, one with starcannon, one with scatter, star engines where possible
-2 serpents, fully loaded, shuricannons, one with DAs, one with banshees
-6 harlequins (still experimenting with configuration, but shadowseer & kisses at least)
-6 scorpions (claw exarch)
-3 bikes + warlock, embolden
-bike farseer, doom & fortune
-bike autarch, fusion gun & lance
-2 vibrocannons

I could swap out some characters or miscellaneous points to add another serpent with DAs or another aspect (fire dragons?) and it would still work.

Usually I am in assault by turn 2, turn 3 at the latest. Typically I lose a serpent in about half the games, and ocassionally have an immobilized falcon. The sooner I'm in assault (and busy gutting enemy units) the less likely I am to lose grav tanks.

I am currently working on a build using all infantry models and shootyness. I am still in the stages of getting it painted but after I play test it I will post some feed back it looks something like this at the 1500 pts mark.

Avatar
Maugan Ra
2X4 Reapers
3X12 gaurdians weapon platform brightlance
12 Gaurdian weapon platform missile launcher
10 Banshees
5 warp spiders exarch w/extra shots
Support battery 3 Vibro cannons
I am going to use the gaurdian squad along with the Vibro's to hunt enemy armor. The spiders and reapers to hunt enemy infantry. I will hide the Avatar within 12 of everything for fearlessness. Avatar, Maugan, and Banshees are for counter charge.  I beleive it's 82 Models total.

It's geometry.

-If a grav tank containing a unit of assault troops is positioned such that a target unit--not in cover-- is within 14" of the back hatch, the unit cannot escape being assaulted next turn unless they move back or destroy (not immobilze) the tank.

-If a grav tank containing a unit of fleet-capable assault troops (banshees) is positioned such that a target unit--not in cover-- is within 15" of the back hatch, the unit cannot escape being assaulted next turn unless they move back or destroy (not immobilze) the tank.

-If a grav tank containing a unit of harlequins is positioned such that a target unit--regardless of cover--is within 9" of the back hatch, that unit cannot escape being assaulted next turn, even if they move back, unless they destroy (not merely immobilze) the tank.

This is why having different aspects available is so important. Since the mech Eldar player has the mobility advantage, he can pick his fight:

-Scorpions against high-T and/or low save opponents, or opponents where the reliable powerfist wounding is key
-Banshees against armored opponents (especially backed up by doom)
-Harlies against high-T opponents, bikes, terminators, monsters and elite, expensive troops
-DA's against counterchargers (because of defend ability)

Fleet, bikes, and the scorpion move-through-cover ability offset the effects of cover on movement. Even if you force the opponent to move back, you're reducing his firepower and using your initiative against him.

But the takeaway is that it is possible to position your grav tanks so as to set up a next-turn assault where the target unit cannot escape being assaulted by harlequins at least--and possibly more than that--regardless of what they do. This is a 4th edition change--in the old codex this wasn't possible.

Because banshees, autarchs, scorpions and harlequins with a shadowseer all ignore the effects of cover in assaults (and on movement, to an extent), they are especially well-suited to charging in and slicing up entrenched enemy units. Let me say that again: terrain is irrelevant. No other army can ignore the effects of terrain on vehicles, movement and assaults the way that Eldar can.

The more your assault units kill, the less the enemy has left to fight back with. Even if you wind up sacrificing your assault units, you still have grav tanks and bikes to kill vehicles and grab objectives.

It's a classic case of Eldar using cheesy exceptions to gain an unfair advantage over slower, tougher, and more static opponents. I'm really enjoying 4th ed Eldar

Excellently explained Flavius, Mech Eldar is my ultimate army. I've played Tau since they came out (more or less stopped until the 4th Ed breathed life back into them) and I could never play a static army, they're just too boring. However I always felt that there was something missing when I was playing Tau: bloodthirsty close combat. And Eldar combines my favourite things: mobility, firepower, tanks and close combat.

However one thing I'm not sure about are DAs.
Apart from the obvious über Fish of Fury, you mentioned using them against counter-attack troops. Could you elaborate on how you use DAs ? How do you configure the squad ? What exactly do you mean by counter-attack troops ?

Posted By Flavius Infernus on 01/16/2007 2:56 PM
It's geometry.

-If a grav tank containing a unit of assault troops is positioned such that a target unit--not in cover-- is within 14" of the back hatch, the unit cannot escape being assaulted next turn unless they move back or destroy (not immobilze) the tank.

-If a grav tank containing a unit of fleet-capable assault troops (banshees) is positioned such that a target unit--not in cover-- is within 15" of the back hatch, the unit cannot escape being assaulted next turn unless they move back or destroy (not immobilze) the tank.

-If a grav tank containing a unit of harlequins is positioned such that a target unit--regardless of cover--is within 9" of the back hatch, that unit cannot escape being assaulted next turn, even if they move back, unless they destroy (not merely immobilze) the tank.

Im sorry did I miss something or can vehicles without a front hatch now allow troops to assault the turn that they disembark?

He means that at the beginning of the eldar players turn, they disembark, move, fleet, and assault, all ignoring terrain. With vectored engines, you pretty much have to destroy the serpant to keep from being assaulted.

Yes, as long as the troops disembark *before the vehicle* moves, the disembarking troops can move, fleet/shoot and assault as normal.

This has been true (and I've been doing it with both rhinos and falcons) since the release of 4th ed, but it's amazing to me how many times I have to explain it.

Countercharge troops are the guys hanging around behind the gunline waiting to counter-charge your assaulting troops. Typically things like some jump marines with a chaplain, a unit of terminators, a big daemon, whatever. The thing they all share is that they have 2+ attacks, which means they get 3+ attacks when they charge your assaulting troops (who are stuck in a fight from the previous turn), causing weedy Eldar assault units to take lots of wounds and fail lots of saves.

If you charge one of these 2+ attack units with your DAs first, they are stuck. The DAs won't kill any significant number of them, but the multi-attack units will be reduced by 1 attack per model (so jump troops or terminators are down to 1 attack each) by the Defend power. So they won't kill many DAs in return. If the DA unit has a shimmershield, then terminators and powerfists will kill even fewer. Because these counter-charge units are typically small (and may have been further reduced by a bladestorm) the DAs will still outnumber whether they win or not, and be able to tarpit the countercharge unit until the main assaulters have finished off their targets and can move on to pop the guys the DA's are holding for them.

Whats not to get. You basically can get a 20' move with banshees deploying out of a vehicle if they roll a 6 fleet that is. Mech Eldar is definatley the way to go. I am just bored with the same old same old and thaught I would experiment with a infantry force. I have read Flavius posts on numerous occasions and he has always seemed sound tactically. Basically the skimmer rush has become the new Rhino rush with the exception that the aspects that deploy out are a little softer than thier marine counter parts(T3 4+ save). With the right wargear the Serpent can go 30+ inches which leaves you one turn to try and shoot it down before you are assaulted. A squad of banshees on the charge numbers wise will net you 5 dead marines statistically.

Thanks. The units you have in Serpents, do you max them ? 10 Banshees, 10 DAs ?

8-10 banshees/scorpions, executioner or claw exarch (or mirrorswords if you are pretty sure of getting doom on your target most of the time). Scorpions need the move-through-cover ability, but banshees don't need exarch powers. The banshee exarch is there for the leadership, the scorpion exarch is there for the claw.

and/or
6 scorpions/banshees with or without exarch in a falcon can work, but must always charge in conjunction with something else. I suspect harlequins and scorpions would work really well together against MEq, but haven't had the chance to try it yet.

10 DAs with the dual-cat exarch. Even cutting one or two models from this unit has a serious negative impact on your bladestorm results.

8 or even 6 DAs is enough to be a tarpit unit with the shimmershield exarch, but these guys can't cripple a unit with shooting the way that the 10-model shooty unit can.

6 harlequins with kisses. It would be nice not to have to pay 30 points for haywire grenades, but the unit is tactically crippled without them.

Yep, that makes sense. The only thing I disagree about is that the Exarch of the HBs is only for Ld. War Shout only costs 5 pts and if it works the results are awesome as your opponent can suddenly only hit you on a 5+.

As to DA, would you suggest go shimmershield or twin-cat ? I suppose it depends if one intends to use them to tarpit units w/ pws or not.

You answered your own question. Also the shimmershield is 10 points more, so for me it sometimes comes down to what I can afford.

(Qoute)The banshee exarch is there for the leadership, the scorpion exarch is there for the claw

Leadership is 9 with or without the exarchs. Banshee exarch is rarely worth the points and the powers she gets are generally useless in most circumstances. Acrobatic is great if you are charged but if someone is charging your Banshees something went wrong in tactics 101. Warshout would probably be awesome against low leadership troops like gaurd or Tau but wait you already wiped them out on the charge and won't get to swing back anyway. For the 12 points plus weapon to upgrade you might as well buy a whole other Banshee.

The leadership benefit really starts to kick in when your squad is suffering penalties from casualties and outnumbering (or fear of the darkness)

Odds of Morale Check Failure
No penalty Ld8=27.8% Ld9=16.7%
-1 penalty Ld9=41.7% Ld9=27.8%
-2 penalty Ld9=58.3% Ld9=41.7%

Also if you get stuck in with a unit of bikes, a T6 creature or a wraithlord, you'll be happier to have the str5 executioner than the extra banshee.

Again check your leadership values. I am pretty sure all aspect are 9 with or without exarchs doesn't matter.

Lemartes is correct, all aspects are already Ld9, the exarchs do not increase that value. As for the banshee exarch, she might not be as point efficient as some other exarchs, but it allows you to take more killy within a single squad (you cant add another banshee if you are already at 10 members) and it weights your combat ability to the exarch, so that when you pull normal banshees as casualties, you arent reducing your combat ability as much.

Hey, you're right. I didn't notice that.

Okay, I will have to think seriously about the banshee exarch then. She is probably the least points-efficient exarch in the book compared with how much of a force multiplier she isn't.

For the extra 17 or so points to go with a exarch and executioner all your relly gaining is the strength 5 and the ability to hit most enemy's on a 3 instead of a four. Attacks will stay the same because the Executionar is a two handed weapon and the exarch is a base 2 attacks. The other thing is this with an average of 5 meq kills with 10 Shees on the charge you more than likely take everything out in your kill zone anyhow. The exarch is actually counter productive then becase she would go first and take out 1-2 denying some of the lower init. shees from striking.(possibly) Were she does become more effective is in a prolonged combat but usually when this happens your banshees are all but done for anyway. Once you lose your numbers and charge it becomes a game of being lucky instead of good.

Well that where Fortune comes in. If the cc lasts longer than 2 assault phases then I usually Fortune then, and with a 75% save they generally last quite long. However unless the cc is counter-assaulted its usually over in my opponent's turn.

One thing I'm not so sold on is how useful scorps are vs banshees.
Most people say that scorps are anti-light infantry and good against high T targets w/ the Claw. However Banshees may not be as good against GEQ, but they're surely by far good enough. You're aiming to win the cc in your opponent's turn so you're only taking one round of hits from your opponent, and the 3+ save isn't going to make much of a difference there. The other claimed advantage of the scorps is staying power in prolonged fights, however if you have a Fortuneseer then they have a greater staying power than scorps. The Claw also isn't a major advantage, the HB Exarch can have S5 which is almost as good, and if you're assaulting high T targets, then you're better off with harlies anyway.
The advantages of HB over scorps are:
1.) Have a much broader spectrum of targets they're good at killing, basically any infantry with T4 or less, at a pinch even T5 if you have Doom.
2.) Can regulate how many they kill much better by not using their pws.
3.) Can fleet. This is great as it makes it almost impossible for your target to run away before you assault and give you way more flexibility for choosing where to deploy the transport.

Is there something I've missed ?

here is my list
2 5 man pathfinder squads
eldrad uthran
2 falcons
bright lance scatter shuricannon
2 wave serpents shuri cannnon and twin linked shuri cannon
2 5 man wraith guard squads
2 war walkers with 2 bright lances each

It's not really fair to say fortuned banshees have a greater staying power than unfortuned scorpions when the scorpions can be fortuned just as easy as banshees.

The advantages of scorps over hbs are:

1) Scorpion exarch has 4 attacks at str 6 instead of a 2 str 5 attacks, and will cause more meq deaths on average with equal numbers.

2) Scorpions are also more likely to cause a torrent of blows check on a sgt type, making them slightly more surviable if the enemy has a power weapon/fist.

3) If you do have to make a save (caught in the open for some reason, emergency disembark from blown up tank, etc) 3+ is better than 4+.

4) One dreadnaught won't totally hose the squad.

As far as regulating kills better with HB's. Well, maybe easier, but with proper charging and limiting the kill zones, the same effect can be arrived at with any charging squad. Scorpions can also strike at str 3 instead of 4 if you really want them to.

edit:

BTW, banshee masks make them all go at init 10, so the exarch doesn't go before the rest of the girls.