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Thanks for that Frenik, another answer to my question occured to me today. Its hard to explain in words, but it has to do with how HB/Harlies and Scorps overlap in what targets they're good at and what transports one has available.
Scorps are indeed a good choice.

So back the previous subject, is the banshee Exarch worth it ? If so with which weapons ? Personally I think she is worth it if you are playing against horde armies as Warshout could really save your unit when you get bogged down. Warshout + Fortune and those banshees could take on a good number of GEqs.
As to Mirrorswords vs Executioner I'd say Executioner. 2 more attacks is wonderful and because of that a mirrorsword exarch is better against a T4 or less Doomed squad, but the Executioner triumphs in my eyes simply because it adds flexibility. It will really help if you need to assault T5 targets like Deathguard, Bikes, Immortals, etc.
What say ye ?

On the banshees & scorps question (one of the oldest Eldar tactical questions around) I say that the view that scorpions are only for attacks on light infantry is too narrow. I think you want them both, and to think about how scorpions can go in combination with other units to throw in large numbers of additional attacks and more bodies, and what effects that will have on different kinds of opponents.

Most armies almost always have some kind of low-save problem squad--scarabs, SM scouts, infiltrating veterans, artillery, kroot--who can ruin your day and are way out of the way of your main line of assault. Sending a small scorpion unit over to deal with them quickly doesn't pull the MEq killers out of your main line. Also these types of units are often set up in cover, which scorpions work differently in (see below).

You can only doom one unit a turn (unless you're Eldrad or have two farseers), so that means unless you're combining both banshees on that unit as a target--which is probably a bad idea since that will wipe them out in a single phase--you need a unit that can do some damage and hold up an enemy without any help from doom if you're attacking multiple units at the same time. Also if the enemy has something like multiple bike units that you want to assault, doom one and send the banshees to that one, and send the scorpions to the other.

Finally, scorpions work cover differently from banshees. The move-through-cover ability gives a smaller variance than the fleet roll and an overall higher reliable movement when most of that movement is in cover. So the scorpions give you more options on how to set up your tanks and contact units in cover, which lets you adapt better to different enemy deployments and terrain.

On the banshee exarch question, I'm going to try dropping mine.

Most of the exarchs in the Eldar list are big force multipliers. They're expensive, but they're worth it because they increase the power and flexibility of the unit exponentially beyond what just more bodies would do (which is not true of marines, which is why marine army-building principles don't work with aspect squads).

-The dire avenger exarch makes the unit deadly with firepower and capable of tarpitting. Without the exarch, they're just guardians with longer-range and 16% more hits.
-The scorpion exarch reliably kills 2-3 MEqs in close combat, can damage anything in the game, and even allows for some light tankhunting in addition to allowing move-through-cover.
-The warp spider exarch makes what would be a pure shooty squad into a unit that is also capable of assaulting and wiping out small, isolated units (great for such a mobile unit) and of escaping getting bogged down by fast enemy units.
-The shining spear exarch keeps the non-power-weaponed spears from being rendered useless in extended combats.
-The firedragon exarch makes all his squad's weapons into shortranged lascannons, which is an exponential increase against heavy-armor targets outside of melta range.
-The swooping hawk exarch makes his squad into the skimmer-killers that they are, and potentially also makes them untargetable.
-The dark reaper exarch makes an anti-infantry unit into an anti-tank unit as well (or an indirect-fire unit). This exarch is also one of the cheapest (double shots for less than twice the price) and most accurate EML platforms available to the Eldar army.

But of all these the banshee exarch is the one who adds the least to the abilities of the squad. Marginally few more kills in a squad that is already very killy, exarch powers that have very little impact most of the time (most of the opponents you charge will easily pass leadership tests, and most of the time the banshees are the ones doing the charging and don't have any trouble getting into base contact), and that's it.

The mirrorsword exarch does not compare favorably to similar options, taking WS bonuses into account:
an additional banshee @16 points gets 1.5 hits on the charge, 1 hit after that
exarch w/ mirrorswords @ 22 points adds an additional 1.8 hits on the charge, +1.14 after that

So an additional banshee gives nearly the same number of hits (plus additonal unit strength) for less than the mirrorsword exarch.

The effect of the executioner removing an attack is huge, and not offset that much by the additional WS:
exarch w executioner @ 22 points adds +.48 hits on the charge, +.32 hits after that

The executioner wounds better, obviously, and allows the unit to actually hurt things with very high toughness. But overall it usually cooks down to spending 22 points for about 1 additional MEq kill on the charge, a bit less after that, but significantly more than the extra banshee would cause without doom.

So it boils down to the question of whether those 22 points can be better spend on something that can do a better job of threatening high-toughness targets and/or kill the same number of targets in the course of a game.

But a banshee exarch overall doesn't change the nature of and multiply the effectiveness of the aspect squad the way that other exarchs do.

Flavius, thanks for the advice. You hold different views than the other Eldar players that I see are successful. Here are a few questions (this is for tournament play):

Scorpions - How do you field them. I am thinking of taking them in my Biel-tan list as place holders for Harlequins (I want to wait for the new models). So should I field them in a Falcon? Should I take both Exarch powers in case I get to Infiltrate in the mission?

My concerns about an assault heavy Eldar force are two-fold. 1 ) Though Eldar transports are highly survivable, what is preventing people from simply trying to keep their distance, or moving away from the transport to to deny you the charge, or 2 ) in order for you to be unavoidable, you almost have to park on you enemies which only exposes yourself to more fire.

I do have some concerns with Wave Serpents, they seem extremely expensive (points wise) for what you get. I have had some success with Dire Avengers mounted in a Scatter Lazer/ S. Cannon combo Wave Serpent. How do you generally field Wave Serpents? In 1850, how many Wave Serpents would you feel to be a good number?

How do you compete with armies that have a lot of anti-light tank fire, such as Lysander Wing with multiple Tank Hunting assault cannons, or Godzilla Nids that have extreme rates of high str. fire?

My area's best Eldar player has been playing Eldar for 20 years and has a different philosphy. He plays Uthwe now with Eldrad, Avatar, multiple Gaurdian Units, Pathfinders, Falcons, a single Fire Prism, and multiple Fire Dragns in said Falcons. In so far he has had great sucess with it (esp. Pathfinders combined with Doom). Do you disagreee with this philiosphy oris it just not your playstyle?

I've been having a lot of success with 6 in a falcon, but I believe that 8-10 in a serpent would also work. Because serpents have to stand off the turn before an assault (to avoid powerfists) and scorpions don't fleet, that can create the situation more often where the scorpions can't reach their assault target, but they're also more survivable if caught in the open.
The infiltrate ability would be helpful if your local group interprets the word "may" to mean that all untransported infantry units must deploy in escalation scenarios. It allows the scorpions more options for where to hide until their ride arrives from reserve. But the cost is steep, and although I tried infiltrating scorpions for years (and that was when they had haywire grenades) I was never able to get it to work consistently.



These two concerns are related. Yes, the falcons pull up to within 1" of the enemy unit. If you don't like where they are (or light vehicles in the way) you can even herd your target units around a bit with tankshocks. Protect the back hatches with bikes, angles and the 1" rule, or other vehicles. If the falcons have harlequins (or possibly scorpions depending on terrain) in them, no infantry unit with a 6" move can escape being assaulted by moving away. They might escape the assault from the wave serpent troops, who are further away, but harlequins can pin them in place while the second wave moves in and they reduce their firepower by moving back.

Yes you do lose a grav tank sometimes. That's why it takes 3-5 tanks to pull off an assault like this, for the reduncancy. And the turn when they are shooting is a definite nailbiter. You can pretty much count on all the grav tanks being shaken in the turn of the assault, and maybe an immobilized serpent or lost weapon here and there.



I run them stripped down with only what they absolutely need: stones, vectored engines, shuriken cannon turret. It helps to not think of them as shooting platforms (mine spend most of the game shaken) but only as pure transports, part of the cost of the aspect unit that they transport. So it's not a 130 point transport; it's a 280 point assault unit. Comparable in cost to a big marine jump pack squad, but far more capable.



I haven't seen the godzilla nid list yet, but terminator-heavy armies are actually less effective. If they spread out, their short ranges (and your mobility) works against them. You can make an end run and minimize their fire, taking out squads piecemeal in assault. If they castle up, they'll get their one serious turn of withering fire, you'll lose more grav tanks than usual, then assault with your redundant units and chew through them for the rest of the game.

Deepstriking armies and droppods can't muster enough concentrated firepower to really hurt the grav tanks--the tanks hug the edges of the table to protect their backsides and combine to take out units piecemeal as they come down.

Necrons give me a really hard time. I haven't figured this one out yet--not just that the gauss weapons cause so many glancing hits on skimmers (gauss flayers at short range are, I think, the biggest threat to falcons in the game), but also the way they can teleport usually at least 2 units out of HtH. I'm still working on this one.



I think this is going to have to be my new motto: "You got a coversave? Good for you; I got a power weapon." ...and I attack before you. In cover.

Seriously, I'm actually building that army too, but my Eldrad isn't painted yet Also I'll use warlock bike squads for antitank instead of fire dragons, which will give me no falcons and more options for my heavy slots. I'm actually an Ulthwe player too, so I'm having trouble rationalizing my "Ulthwe Swordwind" army with the fluff.

But overall I think the mech assault army, the standoff Eldrad/prism/pathfinder army and possibly the Iyanden army are the three most-effective builds that Eldar players have uncovered since the release of the new codex.

A HB exarch ups the choppyness of the unit like an extra regular banshee. More or less. However, she still only takes one seat in a transport. So, when I take banshees, I take them 6 strong in a falcon and they kill a bit more than 7 would coming out of a waveserpent.

Of course, I do prefer scorpions and lately my girls have just been chilling in the case (harlies, dragons and scorpions for elites).

As far as the rest of the exarch go, the fire dragon one is worth it most of the time. You should be dropping out of a falcon within 6" of the target if it's a tank, and tank hunter doesn't help against infantry. I know he hit's on 2's but the 4 average hits is usually enough to slag any tank. I'll admit I haven't tried the heavy flamer version though.

My spiders never leave home without theirs anymore (he was questionable in the old dex).

This Saturday I tested a Mech. Swordwind army, I knew this might have not been the best build but I wanted to see how certain units did, here is my list (roughly) at 1850:

Farseer on Bike (fully kitted)

4-man Jetbike Squadron w/ Warlock and Cannon

10 man Dire Avenger squad with Exarch
- Mounted in Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lazer and S. Cannon

10 man Howling Banshee squad
- Mounted in Wave Serpent w/ Scatter Lazer and S. Cannon

6 Fire Dragons w/ Exarch (in Falcon)

6 Scorpions w/ Exarch (in Falcon)

Viper w/ S. Cannon and S. Cannon

Falcon w/ Scatter Lazer, S.Cannon

Falcon w/ Scatter Lazer, S.Cannon

Fire Prism w/ S. Cannon

So a total of 5 big skimmers plus the Viper. I faced off against an almost mech Imperial Gaurd player. The mission was to have more scoring units in the enemies deployment zone then he had in yours.

A few highlights:

Scorpions did very little, there wasn't any large infantry block for them to hide in, the disabled a Hell hound in assault but was later tank shocked (3 times) off the table.

Fire Dragons made more than their points back as usual.

Howling Banshees lost their transport and was shot off the table (i.e. the did nothing)

Dire Avengers killed an infantry squad than died to return fire, however their transport caused a lot of damage. I like that configuration because of the sheer amount of shots in can put out.

Fire Prism failed to do anything, though that was my fault (I didn't deploy it right and expoesed it to too much fire).

Bikes served me well, and will probably be my cheap second troop choice in lists to come.

Farseer did well, though I spread my army out to far for him to be fully effective. And the fact that I can't help embarked troops is a bummer.

In the end, I lost because he had three units in my deployment zone, while I had two in his. Victory points would have been a draw, and I still busted my fair share.

The next change in my list I will try in a bright lance on the second Wave Serpent. I am learning that my skimmer's shooting can be just as game winning as the troops they carry. With the brightlance, that gives me 5 str 8 shots and one str 9 shot at range, that gives me a good chance at killing Carnifexes at range and limit the enemies tank potential.

Thoughts?

I gather from hints here that your opponent was mechanized guard?
[edit]

Ah, I saw it on the second read-through.  Okay.

In the absence of harlequins, the banshees are the glass jaw of the list.  Or the glass hammer?  Maybe both.  Anyway, anybody who figures that out and focuses fire on their transport--and wave serpents are easier to shoot down as you noticed--will be able to pretty much cripple the assault power of this army list (since the scorpions can't carry it on their own) and score 300 odd victory points at the same time.  Terrain and careful protection/placement of this vehicle are the only ways to overcome this problem (although terrain also creates an issue with movement).

My first several games with the new codex I found the desire to bladestorm things sooo great that I would always disembark my DAs too soon, which resulted in them getting killed by counterfire every game.  Now that I've gotten past the joy of rolling all those dice, I find it easier to look for the optimal spot and time for them to get out--in cover, away from counterfire or, even better, in a position to move-shoot-assault against an enemy that they're not going to finish off until the following turn.

I know the banshees dieing where my doing, I overexposed them.

I am thinking of dropping the Scorpions in favor of more Fire Dragons. My adepticon Team is doing the "Snakes in a Plane" approach and our test games have shown positive results with the multiple Fire Dragons in Falcon approach.

I will keep the Banshees in for now.

Maybe a rematch is in order? hehe. I was the one that played Mahu. There were some points in the game where the dice left him, and some points where my Ordnance was dead on. All in all, it was a tough game for the guard and I actually had to fight like hell to get those scoring units through the gauntlet of skimmers.

Capt K

I think other mechanized armies are always going to be the toughest for mech Eldar--a lot more than usual depends on the dice. If nobody comes out of their transports, it can turn into kind of a heavy tank duel (really kind of comically futile when both players are eldar). I've been in that tank-duel situation where I rolled second turn and my mech Tau opponent was always shaking all my vehicles in his turn, so I was only able to shoot with non-vehicle units until I got the initiative back.

That is why I am leaning towards a mix of shooting and assault in the mounted transports.

I have had extreme success with Fire Dragons in Falcons. Last game they took out a Demolisher and paid for themselves.

Yeah, I'm also considering dropping one of my 6 man cc units (either scorps or harlies, probably harlies) for 6 dragons. Give them an Exarch w/ dragonbreath flamer and crack shot and you've got a good unit. 5 S8 melta shots will make a mess of most high T, 2+ save, AV targets and a H flamer w/ re-roll to wound wil toast any infantry weaker than a termi.

Also, the Flamer has a potential to kill more Terminators that the single shot from the exarch could, if you are close enough.

Yeah, it just gives the unit balance. Imagine what such a flamer shot will do to a unit of genestealers. Toasty.

Well, yeah, a S5 AP4 rerollable wounds flamer is an incredible weapon against just about anything that's not a vehicle.

As for the banshee exarch, I'm still in the planning phases of my Eldar army, but it seems to me that the Triskele is underappreciated -- you do have to give up fleet to use it, but with a skimmer-heavy list, I'm not sure how much of a disadvantage it is. It amounts to, roughly, the equivalent of 2.5 extra attacks against a MEq squad in 5+ cover and 3.75 on a MEq squad in no cover. Compared to Mirrorswords, if you can get the round of fire before the charge, you have to be in battle for a good bit of time to outpace the killing power of the Triskele, which has the further advantage of causing its casualties up front; by and large, if your banshees are in one fight for that long, something's wrong anyway.

I'm not willing to give up the assault troops for fire dragons in my particular build. I don' t think I can be satisfied with a unit that dies after merely making their points back. The bikes (singing spears, fusion autarch) and vibrocannons have been adequate antitank so far.

I have been experimenting with a list that so far has been very successfull especially against podding marines. I have been swapping back and forth between Maugan Ra and a farseer and both have been good in my build. 1500pts

Avatar
Maugan Ra or Farseer with doom, guide, runes that require 3d6 on enemy psykers.
2 Gaurdian squads with 2 bright lances
2 Gaurdian squads with 2 Scat lasers
10 Banshees
5 warpspiders with exarch extra spinner
3 Vibro cannons
5 Reapers
5 Reapers

The list at first glance doesn't seem like much but is actually extremely shooty. I basically castle with all the gaurdians keeping the reapers, Avatar, and Farseer in the middle. Gaurdians are set up far enough out to prevent anything getting rapid fire range on the reapers, Vibro's ect. The lynch pin of the whole list is of course the Avatar so I try to keep him hidden out of sight as long as possible and use him for counter charge along with the banshees. Spiders are also held back and jumped out to help with concentrated fire on any assault units that get to close and often serve as a speed bump. The mass amounts of gaurdians are often tar pits also with the avatar close by to make them fearless. 10 Reapers shots guided generally gets the job done on most infantry units and a little doom thrown in is none to shabby either. Vibro cannons are actually quite effective also. I usually hit a vehicle and a squad of infantry or two per round. Again with fearless it gaurantees the Vibros are around for a few turns.

The Problem with any shooting pre assault is the risk of the opponent pulling suffcient front line models and preventing the charge.

That is an interesting build, does it have the firepower to go toe to toe with an army like mech Eldar or Mech Tau?   Or do you get just enough glancing hits to stop them from shooting and win on objectives (one game suggests that this works well for my horde templars, as does a 5th place gt finish with a similar build)?

Are the warp spiders fast enough to flush out things like defilers and bassies or do you not care?

I would imagine those reapers could make a mess of 'zilla bugs.

It generally can keep two vehicles at least stunned per round. Scat laser are specifically for light armor or skimmers specifically Tornados. Ordinance I suppose could be a real problem if they had 3 or more but with just one I am generally spaced out enough and mostly in cover. Because of the fire power most of my opponents are coming at me. If I ever have to move I move out as a horde toward the center of the table and in the last few turns move into quarters or objectives. Most of the time I just sit back and shoot the stuff out of things and counter assualt as needed.