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Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic





Minneapolis, MN

Seeing how many people really love the original Space Hulk in the Board Game discussion really piques my interest.  I've only played the edition that was released in 1996.  How different are the two and why does everyone think the first one is so much better?  I'm contemplating buying the game on E-Bay, and am torn because the new game has much nicer Terminator models that for use with 40K.  What is the difference?

The 21st century will have a number of great cities. You’ll choose between cities of great population density and those that are like series of islands in the forest. - Bernard Tschumi 
   
Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

The first one is more intense in it being a very involed game with tons more options than the second.

The second however, was lauded as a tactically intensive game in its time. Many magazines and critics loved second edition for its simplicity. "Easy to learn, hard to master" it was awared some awards that I dont remember off hand.

the first edition  got the origins award Best Fantasy or Science Fiction Boardgame of 1989. Its first expansion, Deathwing, won Best Fantasy or Science Fiction Boardgame of 1990.

I know many disagree with me whan I say that second edition was better than first, but thats because I take the second edition for what it was. A board game. First edition was alot more like the 40K we all know today.

Comparing second edition and first edition is like comparing heroquest with warhammer quest, respectively. Both very similar, but one has far more options.

its a shame GW doesnt keep up with thatt type of quality anymore. not that an origins award means alot right now, but it does help sell, if nothing else.

Funny how they can drop kick  a game that won awards to the curb and continue to publish the tripe they do nawadays.

   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

 

I do strongly disagree with Mr. Hellfury, but not for the reasons he pointed out above.

While he is correct that the addition of the 1st edition expansions made the game much more complex and convoluted, if you take the core game from the 1st and 2nd edition they are essentially identical in terms of complexity of the gameplay and options available to the player.

The reason that the core 1st edition game is far, far superior to the 2nd edition game is because of the few essential changes that GW made to the mechanics of the game between the editions. In all cases, I contend that the changes were universally terrible.

 

1) The removal of the turn clock. 1st edition had a turn clock for the marine player but no timer for the stealer player. This put the marine player under intense pressure to finish his turn (as any unused APs were lost when the clock ran out).

This intense pressure is actually what makes me love the game more than anything else. The first time I played Space Hulk I actually felt like I was playing a scene from the movie 'Aliens' because of this pressure. It makes you feel like the stealers are closing in on you and you only have a scant amount of time to make life-or-death decisions. Removing the clock was the worst idea GW ever made.

 

2) Changing to specialized dice and the reduced power of the Storm Bolter. 1st edition used two basic dice to represent storm bolter shooting. If a marine stood still his first shot at a stealer would kill it on a roll of a '6' (on either dice). If he stood still and fired again, this kill result would increase to a '5+'. If he continued to stand still and fire at the same target he could increase the kill roll all the way down to a '3+'. Of course, this required a marine to basically spend his whole turn firing at a single stealer, but if you really needed to kill one stealer, you could pretty much count on doing it.

For some insane reason with 2nd edition GW included two shooting dice instead of using standard dice. The problem with this, is that it only had three types of results on the die: A 'miss' result (on four sides), a 'moving kill' result (on one side), and a 'standing-still kill' (on one side).

If the marine was moving (or firing his first shot) he could only kill the stealer with the moving kill result (essentially a '6' on a normal die). If the marine player was firing his second or subsequent shot at the same stealer while standing still he could kill the stealer with either a 'moving kill' or 'standing-still kill' result (essentially a '5+' on normal dice).

However, because of the nature of the specialized dice, that is the best result a marine could ever get (a '5+'), meaning that a marine could often spend its entire turn standing still and firing at a single stealer without killing it.

Thus, the basic Storm Bolter marine was made considerably weaker in 2nd edition.

 

3) The addition of the 'jam' die. 1st edition used a elegant method to represent storm bolters jamming: If a double was rolled on your two dice when firing overwatch shots, the gun jammed. Howver, since GW went with specialized shooting dice in 2nd edition, they now had to include a third 'jam' die that the players had to roll when firing overwatch shots.

So, instead of using two dice to handle all storm bolter shooting, three dice had to be used. . .but only when firing overwatch shots. In terms of simplicity and elegance, clearly the game moved backwards from 1st to 2nd edition in this area.

 

4) The increased power of the Heavy Flamer. As discussed above, the basic Storm Bolter marine was reduced in power in 2nd edition, this meant that GW had to boost the power of the Heavy Flamer to compensate for this fact (or it could have been the other way around, they wanted to change the flamer rules and they then had to nerf the basic marine to balance things out).

1st edition used a simple single blast to represent the Heavy Flamer and that blast would affect an entire (single) board piece. This system was insanely simple but made for very tough choices on the part of the marine player: If you had to flame the square you wanted to move into, you effectively blocked yourself from moving.

However, these flamer rules also allowed smart stealer players to keep their models spaced out on seperate board sections to reduce the amount of damage that could be inflicted by the flamer. While this tactic was certainly a bit 'gamey', I think it was easily worth the simple and quick rules.

2nd edition allowed flamers to target particular squares (as opposed to entire board sections), and players could choose exactly which squares they wanted to block stealers from moving into (again, instead of an entire board section). This meant that players could use the flamer to block only the portions of a board section they needed, while allowing the marines to continue to move through the un-flamed squares.

These new flamer rules were certainly more complex and difficult for first-time players to get used to.

 

In the end, the versatile flamer rules coupled with the reduced effectiveness of the storm bolter marines makes the Heavy Flamer marine the absolute key to every mission. If the flamer marine gets killed in 2nd edition, you can pretty much kiss the mission good-bye.

The complexity of the flamer rules are also likely the reason for the removal of the clock (they take a bit more time to resolve than the 1st edition flamer).

 

So with 2nd edition you have a less elegant shooting system, a more complex flamer, reduced storm bolter marines, an all-important flamer marine, and the loss of an insanely fun turn timer for the marine player. All that comes together to make overall a less-enjoyable game IMHO.

 

 


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
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Made in us
Foul Dwimmerlaik






Minneapolis, MN

Very good points.

Indeed, if the flamer marine dies in basically any space hulk mission in second ed, its time for the marines to concede.

But on the timer. While they didnt include the timer in second ed, they still suggested it as an option. 6 seconds per marine? Its been awhile so am not positive.

   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA


In 1st edition, it was 2 minutes plus 30 seconds for each sergeant (IIRC).

It made keeping your Sergeant alive very important.



I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in us
Unbalanced Fanatic





Minneapolis, MN

But other than that there weren't any changes?  The timer sounds intense.  I wnder if it would be possible to just implement those changes in the new game.  Thanks for the feedback.

The 21st century will have a number of great cities. You’ll choose between cities of great population density and those that are like series of islands in the forest. - Bernard Tschumi 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA


I can't recall any other main changes. I didn't play enough 2nd edition to notice any changes in the basic missions or any other small changes they made.

I think they may have altered (or removed?) command points in 2nd edition as well (although I don't remember for sure).

And yes, you could very, very easily implement the first edition rules with the 2nd edition set. You can use any 40k blast marker to represent the flamer, use any two regular dice for shooting and use a dice under a mug for command points (if they didn't include the command point chits if I I'm remembering right).


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I had the benefit of getting 1st and 2nd Ed Space Hulk at the same time (thankyou eBay!), and I really don't see the big deal with what they did with the flamer. I agree completely on the Stormbolter nerf, and I couldn't care either way on the turn timer, but the flamer I like in 2nd Ed. Neither version has less tactical value, just maybe less tension in 2nd Ed without the timer.

And yes, the Command Points are in there. Roll a D6 and it's that many 'free' AP's.

BYE


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




1st edition was superior. For all the reasons already provided. Plus when you add deathwing and genestealer...you had a more complex game. Plus then there were rules for power armor marines and chaos terminators...

Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Space Crusade! It's better.

Manfred on Dwarfs: "it's like fighting a mountain, except the mountain stabs back."

For Hearth and Home! 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I had the first edition plus Deathwing. I can't remember if the psychic rules were in Deathwing or the expansion after that. Anyway, the assault cannonnrules were good, the psychic rules were crap, so were the power hammer and thunder shield rules etc -- just excuses to sell some new models. And the Genestealers with guns rules were even crapper, removing the main point of the difference between marines and 'stealers in tactical style.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Deathwing had the assualt cannon rules, and close combat weapons for terminators.

Genestealer had the hybrids and psyhic powers...

Hope more old fools come to their senses and start giving you their money instead of those Union Jack Blood suckers...  
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Skolarii Sector

The basic rules were superb, but it started to fall apart once the supplements came out. The timer was superb - it totally transforms the game. We did a similar thing with Bloodbowl and it was a blast.

Always outnumbered but never outgunned. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






If for nothing else, that bad ass Deathwing Story.

I was a fan of the Main box/ Additions concept, and if so implimented in a smarter fashion, they could have easily continued the line.
All other poster's points all are spot on.


I was a great fan of tyranid attack as well.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk






Scotland

I deffo prefered the earlier ones.

Didn't play that much after the supplements came out but did like the original and deathwing.

I need to dig it out and play some.



"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." - J. Robert Oppenheimer - Exterminatus had it's roots way back in history. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




1st Ed plus Deathwing is the game at it's best.
And the Deathwing story was indeed kick *donkey*.

"Bloodstorm! Ravenblade! Slayer of worlds! Felt the power throb in his weapon. He clutched it tightly in his hand and turned towards his foe letting it build in the twin energy spheres and then finally! RELEASE! The throbbing weapon ejaculated burning white fluid over them as Bloodstorm! Ravenblade! laughed manfully!" - From the epic novel, Bloodstorm! Ravenblade! Obliterates! the! Universe! coming in 2010 from the Black Library [Kid Kyoto] 
   
Made in us
Tinkering Tech-Priest







In 1st ed, you could spend command points on the stealer player's turn. I'm pretty sure that 2nd ed removed that. I bought a copy of first ed and deathwing a few years ago at a convention. The Guy wanted $120 for it and I walked way, then my brain started to work and I ran back and bought it. I'm still jazzed about it.

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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/228997.page

 
   
 
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