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I've got an upcoming game this saturday against an opponent who usually plays necrons against my mechanized guard (yeah ouch!). I've never played against DE before but I've thumbed through the codex. What should I look out for? How should I tailor my weapons loadout?

hey base_10, is that '10' base ten or base 'one oh'.

....


There are 10 types of people in the world, those that get binary math...

DE have the capabilities to really hurt IG. Dark Lances can be a real problem if you take lots of armor. If he runs witches beware of the raider rush and assault. Any further ideas of what's in his army.

In my experience Dark Eldar have a lot of trouble against Guard, especially mechanized guard. A Chimera can destroy almost anything in the Dark Eldar arsenal and its front armor is proof against most Dark Eldar weapons. DE have powerful weapons, but most of these are overkill against the Guard.

Things to watch for:

1) HQ units, Wyches. These guys are way too tough for any of your counter-assault units to take on. The only way to beat them is to shoot them. Wyches can be very fast, with a potential 12" assault move, fleet of foot, and Raider movement. Incubi are tougher than Wyches, with a 3+ save, but are slower and their power weapons are overkill against the guard.

2) Shadowshields. These deduct 6" from your weapon ranges, so they can protect the DE vehicles from your multi-lasers and heavy bolters. Ravagers with these and disintegrators (?) can be dangerous.

3) Leadership tests. The DE can force you to take a number of LD checks, which can be bad news for the Guard. Be sure to keep your important troops near your HQ.

What you should take:

1) Hellhound. Take three if you have them.

2) Leman Russ tank with heavy bolters, smoke launchers. Demolishers aren't necessary, but a standard Russ or two can be helpful, just to have some mobile firepower and a battle cannon to shoot at Incubi.

3) Avoid counter-assault. Nothing in the guard arsenal (HQ units, rough riders, ogryn) stands a chance against the Dark Eldar assault units, so don't bother trying to engage them in melee. Kill their raiders, hit them with flamers, feed them sacrificial units.

Otherwise, a standard mix of weapons should be good. Chimeras are very good against DE, so they will provide most of the firepower you'll need. Give your infantry squads a mix of weapons, with flamers and heavy bolters to kill infantry, and plasma guns and missile launchers in case he brings a Talos.

HI on PHQ with COD = 65 points for LD 10.

As an experienced Dark Eldar general I can tell you that a Dark Eldar army welcomes a Mech Guard army to play against.

Your biggest weakness will be your vehicles vs his darklances in a typical 1850 game can range from 12-16 and can make your shooting phase very short. He has the speed to pick his battles and if you guys are playing on a standard 25% terrain board he will have his warriors in cover that will make them harder to kill. He will most likely assault after a good portion of your vehicles are destroyed or not shooting if he rolls averages. BS 4 with 12-15 lance weapons is not good. He may also have haywires on his Wyches and blasters for raider squads so dont ignore incoming raiders.

I suggest taking anything with indirect as he will be going from terrain to terrain hiding from your guns forcing you to take your anger out on poor warriors who will get a save in cover. A good first turn indirect can make for an almost certain victory for you.

Hellhounds are nice but he knows what to do against hellhounds so I would run a wall of chimeras behind the hellhounds.

My strategy would be the opposite of most mech guard tactics and just go right into the enemy and the hellhounds take out his warrior squads in cover while you manuver your chimeras to dogfight against his raiders.

I wont lie to you, DE is one of those armies that can be extremely difficult if someone real good is playing them and non-MEQ plus vehicles usually means a field day for DE. Just take the fight to him and the army's fragility will show.

Also do not forget the humble lasgun. It is very refreshing to wound on a 4+.

i second saber on the hellhounds. they are quite a threat for anything in the DE list

watch out for his HQ and cc units. you should be able to take whatever shooting he has, even if he has around 14 lance weapons. you should have around 10 tanks right ? remember that shooting a chimera or a leman russ takes the same odds to kill as everything has an effective AV12. accordingly, you should have no more than 2 basic russes with 3 HB (who will be a nightmare for warriors and wyches and raiders and incubi) and lots of chimeras. take las/plas in your guard squads if you know he will have talos. ML/plas or glauncher can also work pretty well. otherwise HB/gl are nice

if he gets in close combat with anything, you're in trouble...

Generally IG outclass DE considerably, escalation will be challenging however.  The key to the DE is in understanding their dirty tricks, they are a bad army overall except for their wonderful nasty trick gear.  In  a nutshell here is the core of the DE armies success, and it's all special unique rules for the army: Combat Drugs, Dark Lance, Webway Portal, Shadow Field, Agonizer, Wyche Weapons: Here are the critical points:

Dark Eldar HQs are nearly insurmountable once in assault by the entire IG army.  Almost everyone plays an Archon with a 2+ invulnerable field save, an agonizer and combat drugs, it swings with 6 or so attacks, at an incredible initiative and always wounds on 4s. Often nothing will be able to strike back against them as they clear the kill zone with 3-4 kills vs IG every phase. Once this is in your lines, your done.

Dark Lances are superb because they reduce A14/13 to AV12, these really nullify any advantage for high AV, taking a russ vs DE is a mistake. Furthermore Dark Lances come in many flavors, the mobile shooting kind on raiders, and in pairs in Warior squads, and rarely; 4 at a shot in a HS choice. They're almost immpossible to avoid, the best strategy, don't take any armor you can't hide.

Webway Portals these allow almost the entire DE army to be of the table and fly right into your lines and assault turn 2 if properly deployed, cagey players will play 2 of them in warrior squads and deploy them turn 1.  At this point, their board edge has effectively moved onto the table 12 inches and raiders can assault anywhere, 12 inches for the portal, 12 inches for the raider move, 2 inches within the vehicle fleet 6 more inches, and probably charge a foot too with HQ(s).  It is indefensible and this tactic calls cries of cheese from many, after they are victimized the first time.

How to beat them (with IG)?

DE offer a unique tactical puzzle for IG, in fact the curious nature of their (DE) armies makes standard IG tactics untenable.  Take your regular army and you could be in trouble.  There is also some really bad advice in this thread.  Dont take any AV14 armor in your army, DE will kill it with little problems, and always playing without a counter charge unit is a recipe for disaster.  Here is how to overcome them.

GO FIRST! -play an inquisitor with the Emperors Tarot so you will get +1 to the go first roll.  Getting the first fire before raiders move or webway portals deploy is crucial, do this, and the game is half won.

PLAY ARTILLERY -use basilisks, preferably 3, with indirect fire, and possibly even mortars. DE ALWAYS HIDE behind Size 3 terrain, and they tend to have to pack in, artillery really kills them fast.

PLAY MULTIPLE COUNTER CHARGE UNITS -the best one is actually ogryns, I would normally never advise Ogryns, they are typically awful, but to DE they are a nightmare for 2 reasons: NO INSTANT DEATH power gloves in the DE army, and DE are T3, my Ogryns are the only IG unit ever to kill a DE HQ in HtH, ever, because they are all S6 in assault!  You just need the one failed shadow field save and the Archon is smashed flat, also Ogryn have multiple wounds, and enough beef to withstand an assault if they have too, but they must be protected and in the rear, waiting the innevitable CC from Eldar fleet moves, and raider attacks.  In the event they get stuck in with DE warriors, they really shine. 2x5 man units would be great. A rampaging, unanswered DE HQ in your lines will cost you the game.

PLAY A SNIPER -assuming you took the Inquisitor, you may as well also play a Vindicare, use it to snipe the webway portal models out of the DE army if they are exposed and you go first, if not, pick off the sybarites with agonizers and CC weapons in the warrior sqauds, and failing that take out the Dark lances.  

EXPECT, AND PLAN! FOR A TURN 1CHARGE -Dark Eldar HQs, are almost unstoppable because of their ridiculous charge distance, honestly, even without a webway portal, this is over a 3 foot charge move, probably form behind cover, probably that ignores terrain, 12 inches deployment, 12 inches raider move, 2 inches out of the raider, D6 fleet (3.5 avg) and 12 inch charge with Combat Drugs, thats on average anywhere 41.5 inches onto the table from anywhere on their board edge in a standard mission, and with a goodfleet roll, its 48 Inches! It's innevitable if the DE player chose their army right, and especially if they go first.  This assault is worth it at any odds for the DE because the resultant assault and pile in will block your gun lines LOS, and tie up your center probably, the only hope is that the Ogryns are waiting on the back board edge, to charge in and support the gunline, the use of spread out conscripts skirmish front line will really help, as the killzone should only be 5 models, at the most ,and the DE HQ will be bogged with the unit, standard sqauds also work, but they may go below 50% as they are only 10 men.  Generally avoid CC at all costs.

KILL RAIDERS- If they leave troops in Raiders, hit them with artillery, (or even mortars) and failing that, any long range fire you can muster, as the emergency disembarkation rules pretty much kill the transported unit anytime you can nock one down.  If you get the chance to fire at an embarked HQ unit, shoot everything you have at it until the transport explodes, to keep it out of your lines.  Also dont forget DE vehicles are open topped, blasts (Artillery) cause 2 hits and damage results are +1 on the chart, making their vehicles easy prey, move out and direct fire with the basilisks, if you have to, should they breach your minimum indirect fire range.  Wtach out for Terror fex morale checks, the pinning is wierd.

USE COVER- to nuyllify the High Initiative of DE units on the charge, keep your units in woods, trechlines or buildings whenever possible, but also understand that plasma grenades will nullify this, know what enemy units have them, recognize them on the table, and kill them with fire, if possible.

CONSIDER THE LIGHT INFANTRY DOCTRINE -Using LI to set some or all of your infantry units up during the infoltrator phase, after the deployment of everything else can really help, so you can see where all the DE went, dont actually infiltrate them, just put them in your settup zone, in the gunline with good firing positions.

DO NOT -play any AV 14 vehicles; show up with no counter assault unit; set up 12 inches forward; fail to bring artillery; expect to be able to avoid melee; use a lot of points up on Chimeras...

(If you have to play escalation god help you)

Good Luck

what out for mandrakes too they actually do well against Guard with 30 attacks on the charge for 150 points it will make you think twice about that lone mandrake model moving up the table...

Ravagers are you night mare too ( I would use the lower setting on the guns against Gaurd Nine str4 ap3 shots per turn can wipe out units and if you clump together guess what that nine shots be comes three blast templates str 7 ap2

plus you have too watch out for horrorflex... can really pin units , and keep them pin for a while

my favorite tactic is too shoot a unit with diss and then use the horrorflex to pin them next turn so my mandrakes or wytches can do there dirty work....

Even if you get first turn you still will have a hard time though the game (especailly if i was playing i love too hide things) plus how many points are you going too play too.... means lot too a DE player From three ravagers too Four is lot of Disses on the table

Plus watch out for spliter cannons st4 assault4 is nasty too gaurd i cant remember the ap on them I beieve its ap 5

Excellent points. I now know my buddy fields a pretty typical DE force Hq w/ incubi, plenty of raider squads and dark lances and some mandrakes... I don't know what dirty tricks he plays with but I'd bet all that he can afford. We'll hash out whether it'll be a 2K or 2.5K battle.

I suspected my demolisher would be less effective than usual, but replacing the battle tanks with arty is taking me a little while to get my head rapped around. Okay so by that logic since he'll have heavy anti-tank firepower that will reduce the effectiveness of my heavier armor and he'll be hiding I should field arty. But on the same token he'll be moving so fast I may not get to use it for indirect fire. The chimera comes into its own here, especially when backed up by hellhounds.

I fear, as several posters noted, that he will roll up my lines like the superchief express. So the solution is Ogryn? Counter intuitive to my marine-centric view of the game. Man and I just sold my ogryn on ebay from lack of use.

I'll add to this later

take lots of heavy bolters and flamers if hes using mandrakes ( flamers eat mandrakes)If you do take a russ make sure its fitted with heavy bolters all round Str 5 kills dark eldar since there only T3 plus there great at taking out raiders too Av 10, dont take lascannons, If you want to punch DE armor take auto cannons there heavest armor is AV11(ravagers) and since your playing a 2k game expect four ravagers three in the heavy slot and there Hq choice hes a pain in the ass some time AV14 while being shot at and AV11 in close combat and hes a skimmer and vehicle so he can leave combat the next turn and shoot up a another unit and charge in too that unit while the other hq or mandrakes or wytches clean up after him( thats a tactic i like to use in 2k games with him.)

Instead of Ogryns try a unit of conscripts i mean a max squad of those boy scouts with flamers s... he will be tired up in C/c for a few turns before he can move on, Plus a little know secret about DE, if they say in C/C too long with the same unit they begin too crumble.
that why they hit hard and fast and then jump too the next unit. from my experinece as a DE player, would love too hear the Battle repot after wards too

So the game went badly. We played "hold at all costs" and he was the attacker. I had several bad reserve rolls and he effectively hid his units behind cover until the last possible moment. There is nothing in a normal guard army that could defeat them on their own in close combat.  I found sentinels did a reasonably good job of tieing up his Archon and incubi for 3+ turns. They didn't kill any though. I found myself consistently outmanuvered by his fastmoving "regatta of doom" Everything but the mandrakes and the talos were mounted in transports and he brought two ravager gunships along as well. Thats about 10 flying yachts and all but one ravager had darklances. One unit of witches w/ haywire grenades. One haemonculus with grotescues (sp?). The aforementioned archon and of course raider squads with blasters and splinter cannons.

Most vehicles were effectively disabled or destroyed within two turns of coming on board. Stormtroopers seemed to have more staying power in the running gunfights I found myself in with the raider squads. Grenade lauchers were a better choice than plasma against the DE. They could knock down the flying boats, instant kill any infantry (except the incubi due to their armor), or make virtually useless confetti grenades (frag grenades are too unlikely to wound and kill even DE).

Next time I'll try my marines against the regatta of doom

He'll be coming at you fast but just pack as many heavy bolters, multi-lasers, and autocannons in that army as you can and you'll do fine. Get some platoon hqs hiding around with multiple flamers since he'll most likely wipe out whatever he hits on the charge. Get those flamers boys in there and toast the victors. Remember that he has a 2+ save but he is only t3 (unless taking a jetbike) so pour on the fire.

The trick is going to be not letting him jump from one unit to the next. Try to get in positions that allow your squads to either be wiped out or fall back on the turn he charges.

One thing to consider about the Archon, if you can reliably put 6 or more wounds on him in a turn, he should die very, very quickly. Only takes 1 failed save and the field is gone.

Also, Ogryn eat Archons alive.

if i kow im playing a guard unit i will not outfit my archon with an agoniser why would you why should i have to roll 4's when i can gte 3 with a punisher tormet helm combo

makes no sense to have your hq hunting tanks which all an agonizer is good for or very high t models a punisher much better imop

dont know why everyone thinks de are a bad army i have played them in 2 tournaments and one them both

dark lances blasters and distingrators will ruin your day
wytches and talos will be just as bad

if they can get close forget it

you have nothing in the ig thats can stop the de in close combat except 200 lasguns hehehheeh

Indirect is your best bet. Augustus has some very valid points considering he has faced THE best Dark Eldar player and he knows what they are fully capable of yet unfortantely I disagree what he would say about IG outclassing a DE army generally.

An IG army isint specifically designed to fight DE but using Allies helps and a Vindicare only has 6 shots in the game where as your Eversor has 10-12 assault phases to keep most DE units tied up. If you do get charged, counter-charge with your other units and remember that your not fighting marines, your fighting toughness 3 so you will wound and the easiest way to kill DE is to break them.

Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 01/21/2007 4:53 PM
One thing to consider about the Archon, if you can reliably put 6 or more wounds on him in a turn, he should die very, very quickly. Only takes 1 failed save and the field is gone.

Also, Ogryn eat Archons alive.

in what way? ill take a single archon agains an ogryn squad any day of the week

im going first, im rerolling to hit, im adding str ,and its power weapon... ill eat ogryns for breakfast lunch or dinner.. all day everyday

Posted By The Drop Zone on 01/21/2007 9:57 PM

Posted By The Happy Anarchist on 01/21/2007 4:53 PM
One thing to consider about the Archon, if you can reliably put 6 or more wounds on him in a turn, he should die very, very quickly. Only takes 1 failed save and the field is gone.

Also, Ogryn eat Archons alive.

in what way? ill take a single archon agains an ogryn squad any day of the week

im going first, im rerolling to hit, im adding str ,and its power weapon... ill eat ogryns for breakfast lunch or dinner.. all day everyday

Okay, so your rerolling to hit, adding str and I believe you can add another attack.  Probably don't want to do more than that, you are already being risky on hitting yourself with drugs.
In any case, you are being charged, as the Ogryns are behind the IG lines.
You go first, I believe it is six attacks?  4 hit, reroll the other 2 and we'll say another hits.   5 hits, wounding on threes, and we will give 4 wounds.  Congratulations, you killed 1 Ogryn and a third.  We'lll give you the bonehead.
They strike back.  3 attacks a piece, we'll say 4 within range.  12 attacks, 6 hit, 5 wounds.  Fail one 2+ save and the Archon goes to paste.

Note - Even if the Archon doesn't fail his save, they won the combat.  They will be staying, and it takes DE a long time to move through that many wounds.

Of course, if you make it a Arcite (that's the Wych cult one, it has been some time) with some wyches, then it gets much more interesting, and swings back to the DE favor.

*EDIT* To really elaborate though, that's the main thing about it is the risk and the fact that your big HQ is bogged down with Ogryns (plus potentially another squad or two of grunts to add attacks and try and get you to fail that all important 2+ save)
Remember, one failed save against the Ogryns and you die.

exscuse me they won combat ? have you been playing long? if i dont take a wound and you do news flash... i won combat and with leadership modifiers bye bye your dead your little init wont stand up against my 7

and now you change to situation its no longer just ogryns but now its ogryns and ig units ok ill take my 5 incubi retinue with drazhar want to calculate the odds now?
how many rounds does it now take to kill everything ig on the board ? my guess 3 maybe 4 5 if i roll bad.. been there done that so i know i can take out everything

and considering i hit on 3's might as well just say right now im going to hit 6 times my str is a base of 4 with my punisher i can make it 5.. your toughness is ?

and btw whats the ogryns ws? i know its not a 6 which is my base so i can pretty muich assume you wont hit but half .. even then...you charge me? have you ever played against dark eldar im pretty sure id be charging you behind the lines is no matter

leave the ig out of it you brought up ogryns by them selves stay on topic please

unless i roll horrible or overdose there is little chance of ogryns eating my archon in the matter in which you claimed

nice try but nope... bzzzzzzzzzzzz thansk for playing

what is the stats of a Ogryn?? arent they like ws 2 str 6 t4 right??

He took Grotesques, a Talos, and Mandrakes?

And still won?

Wow.

As for the Archon, with an Incubi bodyguard, he's not too hard to deal with. Just move squads away from his combat, shoot his transport, and then shoot him, the Incubi will slow him down.

What did you take to the table?

The only comment I'll make about the Ogryn vs Archon argument is this. What kinda moron DE general lets his lone Archon get charged by critters that can instakill it?

Honestly, when i play against IG with my DE, my Archon on Jetbike usually plays no part in the battle at all.  Three squads of wyches handle the CC just fine, and the 15 dark lances can usually account for around five damage affects per turn against the vehicles.

The last time I played against Mech IG, I tabled my opponent in turn 4.  I think he had something like 6 Chimarae, 3 Russes and one of those flamethrower tanks.

Sal.

Ogryn are WS4, S6, T4

I must have only played crappy DE players before. Every time I play them I slaughter them all in 3 turns with my IG. Especially if I go first. If they use a stupid portal drive your vehicle over it then they cant get out. Use your autocannons to wipe out their open topped AV10 vehicles, then when they disembark , burn em with hell hounds. Cover, what cover?

Are they hiding? Take a basilisk. Then just shoot the snot out of the only DE guy who has ever lived to see combat against me, the guy with the +2 inv. Its call commissar gaunt along with 50 fearless conscripts hell never kill them all. Eventually he'll fail his save and die miserably, then they will learn not to put all their faith in a single model.

It's quite possible your DE opponents might not be that good with the army yet. I swear, it took me at least six months of playing my DE before I won a game versus an even mediocre opponent. They have a pretty steep learning curve, and when you make a mistake with them, they aren't very forgiving.

I've just recently started playing Alpha Legion, and that list almost seems to play itself in comparison.

Sal.

Ok, I play both armies, and while I've only been playing the dark eldar for 8 or 9 monthes guard have been a passion for a few years. I don't want to be repetative, but do not use any armour with 14 armour. DE do excel at destroying vehicles and giving him anything as big and juicy as a russ is just giving away vp. Don't go overboard with basilisks, as wonderfully deadly as they are, chances are the majority of his army will be too close to use them by turn 3. Maximize your infantry. The discussion on archons vs. ogryns is a bit trite, for it largely takes them out of the context of their own armies. DE hqs are not superhuman, ok they are, but not unbeatable. If you surround him with grunts, then he will die or at the very least be bogged down the rest of the game. HB, AC and multi lasers are death to any raiders/ravagers and destroying the DE mobility goes a long way to destroying the army. Take the close order drill doctrine for the extra leadership, don't be afraid to take the xeno fighters option, its only 5 pts per unit. Some may call this cheesey. I call it planning for the worst. I've never used it myself, but after one victory your boys are vets at fighting them since very few survive any chance encounter. Win this and start giving your units DE trophys.

FYI: That only works if the DE player is an idiot and puts something other then skimmers/jetbikes in the portal. Also IIRC you can't move on top of the portal (although that may just apply to USF). You can try and surround it but again a skimmer will just fly right over.