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Saw this at a local league's forum: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/01/06/cngames06.xml

Any interpretations? Apparently the old quotes about blaming a bubble burst on LOTR (blah blah, yadda yadda yadda) are still there. Also, what does bread and butter mean in this context? I mean, Dark Angels are coming around, and they like their bread and butter a certain way.

Apologies if this was already posted, but I haven't seen it.

Duuuh...ya think George?

It would be nice to get some recognition. Too bad it takes severe loss of sales for GW to realise this.

heheh
who is Ted Kirby? (evil twin brother spin doctor of Tom?)

I want to say this article was linked in Osbad's GW Profit Slide Continues thread or perhaps Malfred's RichN Posted this elsewhere thread, but I'm not sure and reading that article again only warms my heart to see just how utterly clueless Ted... I mean Tom Kirby sounds: "It was all a bit too easy. We forgot the basic skills" No gak Sherlock. But you sure remembered to raise prices!
 

It's a hard thing to forget!

It's very funny to read the article and see Kirby recognize a problem (LOTR bubble) years after the consumers recognized the problem themselves.

It sounds like they intend to put their focus back on their two core games and leave LotR to the dusty shelves.

Posted By rryannn on 01/20/2007 12:26 PM
It's very funny to read the article and see Kirby recognize a problem (LOTR bubble) years after the consumers recognized the problem themselves.

Actually, the fact remains that they recognised that problem the year it happened- and stated it in their newsletter to investors back then.

Moreover, LotR still outsold Warhammer Fantasy at multiple times during its life, so I hardly think it would've been prudent to dismiss the game as most hobbiest on this board would have liked.

LotR was and is a tightly written game with beautiful miniatures.  I just wish more people had given it a chance instead of being bitter about the support it received in WD.  Of course, GW could've made a really smart move and sold that European Rings specialty mag worldwide in their hobby shops and over their mailorder system.  That would've allowed them to drop some space in WD devoted to the rings and vastly increase sales of that publication.

I don't even play LotR and I own scads of the minis. Cheap fantasy figs at a decent price. Whats not to like?

Posted By pixelgeek on 01/20/2007 3:49 PM
I don't even play LotR and I own scads of the minis. Cheap fantasy figs at a decent price. Whats not to like?

I think the major complaint msot people had was how LotR was pushed in our faces a lot, and it seemed to usurp a lot of the time and effort that went into WHFB and 40K.

That's me playing Devil's Advocate though. I both enjoyed the game and the models of LotR.

That may be true Drake:L its a great game with tight rules and nice minis....the problem is, it TOOK AWAY from the other 2 games folks actually put time and effort into their armies for.

So 40k and Fantasy slide crappier and crappier down the rabbit hole as they slide resources to it.

I mean, I have 6 K in tyranids, 4 k in WH and aroudn 3K in space marines....and all but the marines are painted. And WE, NG and Ogre armies.....why do I want to start a NEW one when they seem to be doing a crappy job with the otehr two?

So you have to be a bit understanding of the bitterness here....they can doa GREAT job with the rules in LotR but not 40k or fantasy?

Blah......blah......blah.....same old dakka dakka rants...

Posted By carmachu on 01/20/2007 4:39 PM
So you have to be a bit understanding of the bitterness here....they can doa GREAT job with the rules in LotR but not 40k or fantasy?

You're presuming that they would indeed have changed anything in WFB or 40K and that the resources that went into LotR would have made a better 40K or WFB rulebook.

If they wanted to make better core products/rules I think they would have done so with or without LotR.

That might be slightly negative but I don't see how LotR impacted the quality of the other two core games.

Posted By fourganger88 on 01/20/2007 4:38 PM

I think the major complaint msot people had was how LotR was pushed in our faces a lot, and it seemed to usurp a lot of the time and effort that went into WHFB and 40K.

A decision was made to make it a core game... and that may have been part of their deal with New Line Cinemas. But if you're going to promote a game you need to do a proper job of it.

Look at what a disaster the Specialist Range turned out to be without any support or advertising.

And lets be honest, they can't fill WD with quality content now. How much more of a catalogue would that "magazine" be if it wasn't for the LotR content?

Posted By Tigerone on 01/20/2007 5:11 PM
Blah......blah......blah.....same old dakka dakka rants...

Blah......blah......blah.....same old Tigerone rant. Seriously, do you ever not complain about complaining?

Sorry that was what I thought Dakka was all about...I mean really anything that is poston on here except the Anti GW rants starts off "I saw this on warseer"....

I actually agree, to an extent, with Pixelgeek: LOTR is not and has not been the problem, it's nothing more than a scapegoat for problems that, at their core, have absolutely nothing to do with LotR being brought on as the third core game.

To summarize, rules design was Rick Priestley, who was otherwise in the background and not doing stuff for WHFB or 40k anyways. Miniature design pulled away the Perry Brothers (who I believe are now contract), split Gary Morely's time (which should have been a boon for the other figure lines...) and added two new sculptors. WD content... well, as mentioned, even with LotR it doesn't have any. What are they going to do without it? More ads? Finally, it made boat loads of money. Is it still raking in cash? It's probably doing better business than all of the specialist games lines combined, yet I don't hear anyone calling for them to get axed (well, they are kinda dying on the vine in MO-only land)

That all said, I am irritated (or bitter as Carm says) that LotR was so well done rules & figure wise despite not having remotely the same size staff as WHFB and 40k. There are only a handful of LotR figs I don't find immensely attractive and that has more to do with WETA's original designs that they're based on than GW. On the other hand, we all know I can find fault in whole swathes of GW's other two core game's figs (and, to me, it's only getting worse). Rules wise, 40k is a total train wreck and I'm personally not happy with v7, all thanks to GW's lack of capable designers on those teams and/or their lack of willingness to get one or more people in with the much needed technical writing skillsets. That and an editor. None of which is due to LotR.

I wouldnt know. I skipp all LotR content. It has no value to me. Wasted space, worse than advertising, to me.

Posted By Tigerone on 01/20/2007 6:14 PM
Sorry that was what I thought Dakka was all about...I mean really anything that is poston on here except the Anti GW rants starts off "I saw this on warseer"....

Thanks for all of your input, you've really added a lot to this discussion.

Thats really it in a nut shell. LotR is VERY well done, for a new game....and lets face it, 40k And fantasy are a mess.

It is LotR's fault however. If we didnt have exaples of quality game and minis....we wouldnt be *female dog*ing about it, now would we? *grin*

Posted By carmachu on 01/20/2007 6:36 PM

It is LotR's fault however. If we didnt have exaples of quality game and minis....we wouldnt be *female dog*ing about it, now would we? *grin*

Hahaha, possibly! It shows us GW can still put out some pretty figs and a good game, though I didn't need LotR to show me what a mess their other two systems are, Flames of War and WAB did that for me.
 

The simple fact that they have recognized a problem is a step in the right direction. At least usually. They could still end up with all of the wrong solutions, although I hope not. It'd be great if GW put more effort into its editing and brought people back into the game with nicer rules and better customer service.

So what if they recognized a problem. Its what they actually do that counts.

Oh GW will turnaround, I do have faith in that. What I dont have faith in is people being convinced that it is an earnest attempt to bring wayward GW gamers back to the fold before its too late.

It would have been a great idea for them to stay as a hobby company, not a company selling hobbies. Big difference there, IMO.

They have admitted to losing sight of what really makes GW special, and havent recognized that fact until the numbers were dismally low despite warning from gamers abroad.

Since GW hadnt listened to their following in the past, what makes them think that we will feel that they will listen to us in the future? The trust has been broken.

Admitting the problem exists is all well and good, but I dont want words, I want action.

If it takes GW being run by another company for that action to be instituted, then so be it. I am sure there are many companies out there that see the real value in GW's present IP, and would be willing to either destroy that IP, or make it better than GW could ever accomplish. Either way, it matters little to me.

Until I see a major change in how GW handles their customer service (i.e. releasing FAQ's on a level that isnt glacial, etc) they absolutley will gain no more funds from my wallet. The only two things in the past two years I have purchased from them were a box of termies 2 yrs ago, 2 deeply discounted warwalker squad boxes four months ago and a single tin of vehicle damage dice a month ago. Thats what gw is worth to me.

Yep, same rant.  Funny, that.  It's almost like it's true...

Posted By Hellfury on 01/20/2007 7:18 PM
 The only two things in the past two years I have purchased from them were a box of termies 2 yrs ago, 2 deeply discounted warwalker squad boxes four months ago and a single tin of vehicle damage dice a month ago. Thats what gw is worth to me.

But what about....nah, too easy.

Heh.
If GW offered THAT service, then there would be alot more customers I am sure.

The success of secondary markets like that are a testament to that fact.

But with GW removing the option to buy many of their sprues seperatly from their online store, I am sure thats simply one more avenue that they can hide their head in a hole over.

Ignore it and it most assuredly will go away!

I'm with Pixel & Nyarly. I don't hate LOTR or even hate GW for doing it. ANY company would have jumped at the chance to do it, and they did an excellent job with it. Tight rules which are being recycled for WAB, good figures (and mostly well priced) that have sorely tempted me on multiple occasions (25 Wood Elves for $25 retail? What's not to love?). It just saddens me that they couldn't devote resources to this game and the other two, or be more shrewd with their marketing (i.e. trying to use a sledgehammer to sell LOTR to vets). Heck, they could have solved half their problems by switching all three games to the same LOTR/WAB rules set (with minor, requisite mods to make relevant for the different genres). Then, they could effectively have had one gaming engine for ALL Warhammer games: FB, LOTR, 40k and WAB. That would have actually been pretty sweet. Too bad.

Heh. Then Legolas could fight Lysander, and Gimli could throwdown against Grimgor.

Maybe you've uncovered something...

Perhaps the reason GW won't offer a unified system is because they know Dakka will shriek endlessly about inter-gameworld balance? "OMG WTF?!!?!1!? TIGNARIUOUS IS LIKE TEN TIMES (2x) STONGRAR THNA GALADREAL!"