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 admironheart wrote:
So is everyone on the same page concerning Index vs Codex?

I have seen several posts since the release of the Eldar Codex stating that if you use the Path of Command from the index you don't get the updated expanded rules from the Codex version.

It seems to me and so far everyone in the rules section that if you take a warp jump Autarch that you DO indeed get to use the newer rules and the Banshee masks work like the Codex version and not the index version.

Is there any controversy on this?

The flowchart pretty much just allows you to take codex datasheets with index wargear options. Those wargear options must use codex prices and rules. Nothing else is said about changing rules used on the datasheet.

So my interpretation is that you would be stuck with the old index PoC rule, if you elect to take a Warp jump Autarch

So I had my first game with Eldar today, at 750pts, and while we didn't get to finish the game, I really enjoyed them.

Wraithlords are fun, and the Windriders were also a lot of fun too, with Shuriken Cannons. Farseer's psychic powers are really nice: casting Doom along with the Shuriken Cannons was awesome synergy that felt quite fun.

Overall I'm really enjoying the manoeuvrability, as I'm coming over from Death Guard who are horrifically slow in comparison, so it's quite a breath of fresh air

Spartacus wrote:


The flowchart pretty much just allows you to take codex datasheets with index wargear options. Those wargear options must use codex prices and rules. Nothing else is said about changing rules used on the datasheet.

So my interpretation is that you would be stuck with the old index PoC rule, if you elect to take a Warp jump Autarch

So If I understand your argument, Lets give 2 examples. First if the LasCannon gets a big change in Codex/Chapter Approved that it now has the profile of STR 9 and d3 shots and a price change to go with it. The FAQ flowsheet said you would have to pay for the price increase, but by your reasoning it would still only shoot once at STR 9 if on an index datasheet.

Example 2 Lets say the Index had a sLazerCannon Merry Go Round unit. The only unit with a sLazerCannon. Now in the Codex the sLazerCannon is made a heavy weapon choice. In the Index the sLazerCannon is Str 10 with d6 shots set of rules and in the Codex they changed it to Str 6 and d6 shots. The price would be the Codex version, even though they made the weapon NOT as good. So now your reasoning is that the Index version gets to keep the old powerful rules, but pays the new codex prices as per the FAQ

I just find your reasoning to have so many loopholes. A stone is a stone, this isn't rocket science. Keep it simple as the saying goes.

I don't see any reasoning that would permit a conclusion that the Banshee mask would NOT work like the Codex, and with the same line of thought Path of Command. Justifing any other way could lead to many problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
So I had my first game with Eldar today, at 750pts, and while we didn't get to finish the game, I really enjoyed them.

Wraithlords are fun, and the Windriders were also a lot of fun too, with Shuriken Cannons. Farseer's psychic powers are really nice: casting Doom along with the Shuriken Cannons was awesome synergy that felt quite fun.

Overall I'm really enjoying the manoeuvrability, as I'm coming over from Death Guard who are horrifically slow in comparison, so it's quite a breath of fresh air

I am now using Wraithlords and Windriders as I had written them off early on as not very good.

When he pointed out that the Shuriken Cannon mounted to the Windriders was near the same as ScatLaser was an awesome observation. I really was going for ScatBikes but now will need to playtest it both ways to see what works best.

Its tips like that, is what makes this forum very useful.

 admironheart wrote:

Spartacus wrote:


The flowchart pretty much just allows you to take codex datasheets with index wargear options. Those wargear options must use codex prices and rules. Nothing else is said about changing rules used on the datasheet.

So my interpretation is that you would be stuck with the old index PoC rule, if you elect to take a Warp jump Autarch

So If I understand your argument, Lets give 2 examples. First if the LasCannon gets a big change in Codex/Chapter Approved that it now has the profile of STR 9 and d3 shots and a price change to go with it. The FAQ flowsheet said you would have to pay for the price increase, but by your reasoning it would still only shoot once at STR 9 if on an index datasheet.

Example 2 Lets say the Index had a sLazerCannon Merry Go Round unit. The only unit with a sLazerCannon. Now in the Codex the sLazerCannon is made a heavy weapon choice. In the Index the sLazerCannon is Str 10 with d6 shots set of rules and in the Codex they changed it to Str 6 and d6 shots. The price would be the Codex version, even though they made the weapon NOT as good. So now your reasoning is that the Index version gets to keep the old powerful rules, but pays the new codex prices as per the FAQ

I just find your reasoning to have so many loopholes. A stone is a stone, this isn't rocket science. Keep it simple as the saying goes.

I don't see any reasoning that would permit a conclusion that the Banshee mask would NOT work like the Codex, and with the same line of thought Path of Command. Justifing any other way could lead to many problems.

You'd best read my post again. 'Those wargear options must use codex prices and rules'.

So in both of your examples things would be just as you say, whenever wargear changes you always use the most up-to-date information.

However, GWs flowchart explicitly only applies to wargear options as I clearly stated, and we are not talking about wargear in the case of Path of Command. Its a rule listed on the datasheet. Whenever you use a datasheet from the index (which we are for the warp jump Autarch), use all applicable rules listed on that datasheet exactly as written unless otherwise stated. New datasheets in the codex have nothing to do with it.

I think the distinction Spartacus is making is that you would use the codex PoC for all autarchs with index or codex wargear EXCEPT warp jump autarchs since they do not have a codex entry.

darkarchonlord wrote:
I think the distinction Spartacus is making is that you would use the codex PoC for all autarchs with index or codex wargear EXCEPT warp jump autarchs since they do not have a codex entry.

And more specifically, the other Codex Autarchs have the new wording, whereas the Index Warp Jump Autarch has the old wording specifically list on the Datasheet.
If the WJ Autarch only had PoC on its datasheet, but NOT the rule itself (because it was listed on another page in the Index), you could use the Codex wording.

Is there a way to transport Wraithlords at all? I'm finding she either chills around because everything else gets everywhere faster or she dies before she gets anywhere

nope just walking and advancing if you mount Shuricanons, to get closer.

after that you may play with either stratagems or Psy powers like Quicken.

Ah okay. I guess 8" +advancing wouldn't take too long to run around, I was probably being a little too cautious with her. And I looked at Quicken but it only effects infantry and bikers

 Galef wrote:

darkarchonlord wrote:
I think the distinction Spartacus is making is that you would use the codex PoC for all autarchs with index or codex wargear EXCEPT warp jump autarchs since they do not have a codex entry.

And more specifically, the other Codex Autarchs have the new wording, whereas the Index Warp Jump Autarch has the old wording specifically list on the Datasheet.
If the WJ Autarch only had PoC on its datasheet, but NOT the rule itself (because it was listed on another page in the Index), you could use the Codex wording.

No, actually that is being debated too, since the rules always carry a page reference. For example, many think that if you take a psyker with no codex datasheet (there aren't, it's only for debate sake) then you can use the old conceal, since it refers to the page with the old powers.

So, in most cases it seems like two units of 3 Windriders is better than a unit of 6, as a unit of 6 would easily be shot to pieces. But I was thinking of using the Alaitoc attribute, along with accompanying the bikes with a warlock to cast conceal on them. Then I thought, for a cool moment, I could use the strat that places a further -1 on a unit. So, in this case, would I be better off with a unit of 6 Windriders with -2 to hit them for the most part and -3 for a key moment, or would it still be better riding around as two units of 3?

Windriders are generally not worth taking. Up them to shining spears or swap them out for guardians/dire avengers.

If you have to bring them, keep them to units of 3 as they're a bad target for Lightning Fast Reflexes anyway.

PoC new wording is listed in the codex with army special rules, there really is nothing to debate about what version to use. If anyone is using or wants someone to use the old PoC rules they are a moron.

There are certainly some rules that are more ambiguous that you could debate more but this one is so clear cut it is frustrating to see this being debated again in this thread.

I think the key to using Windriders is to make them unappealing for the enemy to shoot at AND not investing too much into them.
This could be due to several factors:
1) Keeping them MSU 3-elf units that zip around near more priority targets like Hemlocks or Spears
2) Making sure other units are closer to the enemy, like Serpents about to unload Dragons or Wraithgaurd.
3) Making them Alaitoc with some additional -1 to hit stacked on

Personally, I own 12 and want to use them as they are some of the first models I ever owned (I've played Saim-Hann style "Corsairs" since 4th ed). I take an Aurtarch Skyrunner w/ Reaper launcher and the Puritanical leader trait and place him in between 2 units of 6.
Not taking Morale is great and re-rolling 1s works really well for them. I was going to take the Autarch anyway, so I don't feel like it is an extra investment (like a Warlock would be). And you HAVE to take Alaitoc for them all, not only to get the WL trait, but without the -1 to hit, they just die

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 Galef wrote:
I think the key to using Windriders is to make them unappealing for the enemy to shoot at AND not investing too much into them.
This could be due to several factors:
1) Keeping them MSU 3-elf units that zip around near more priority targets like Hemlocks or Spears
2) Making sure other units are closer to the enemy, like Serpents about to unload Dragons or Wraithgaurd.
3) Making them Alaitoc with some additional -1 to hit stacked on

Personally, I own 12 and want to use them as they are some of the first models I ever owned (I've played Saim-Hann style "Corsairs" since 4th ed). I take an Aurtarch Skyrunner w/ Reaper launcher and the Puritanical leader trait and place him in between 2 units of 6.
Not taking Morale is great and re-rolling 1s works really well for them. I was going to take the Autarch anyway, so I don't feel like it is an extra investment (like a Warlock would be). And you HAVE to take Alaitoc for them all, not only to get the WL trait, but without the -1 to hit, they just die

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It feels like you'd get more use out of them running them as shining spears instead of windriders though. Just convert them up.

Yes, Spears are better, but some of us actually WANT to use Windriders. I'm just sharing my thoughts on how to make them work.

 Galef wrote:
Yes, Spears are better, but some of us actually WANT to use Windriders. I'm just sharing my thoughts on how to make them work.

Yeah, if I was running Windriders, I’d go MSU as well. Likely with Shuriken Cannons and just zip around the mid-field using the 24” range.

Range is the one big thing Windriders have over Spears, so they will likely always be better in objective style missions, as opposed to “go for the tabling” style of play.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, I’m at an ITC event this weekend, running my Eldar. It’s a 58 man event, and there are 7 Eldar players, 1 Ynnari (dirty 20 Dark Reapers inside 2 Plasma Obliterators…) and 2 Dark Eldar players going.
Should be an interesting event, and there are some different, but very strong lists going. Lots of Genestealers and Flying Tyrants, Daemons and Primarchs – someone is even taking the new FW Primaris Space Marine Super Heavy tank.

Breakdown seems to be –
Eldar 7
Space Marines 6
Daemons 5
Tyranids 5
Dark Angels 4
Chaos 4
AdMech 4
Astra Militarum 3
Orks 3
Blood Angels 3
Necrons 3
Dark Eldar 2
Custodes 2
Sisters of Battle 2
Ynnari 1
Thousand Sons 1
Imperium Soup 1
Death Guard 1
Grey Knights 1

Nice spread of factions making an appearance! Will have to see how it goes! Based on the lists, there are 5 that I feel I will probably struggle against – but it’ll all depend on what happens in game. Should be fun to try to deal with 52 Genestealers… What’s more, I’m not taking any Dark Reapers!

If you guys had a choice between webway striking 10 Fire Dragons or putting them in a serpent with a spirit seer with Quicken which would you choose? Assume you have a 20 man guardian blob already coming through webway.

Is the additional 2CP worth it?

If you use fire and fade (in the event of webway) and embark in serpent would you be scared that it would get surrounded and destroyed in melee next turn leading to all guys inside dying?

I would go the with the Wave Serpent...but it costs a lot more for its effectiveness. The plus is you get a nice meatshield.

I would like to visit an comparison that Ive noticed is overlooked since the index.

War Walkers vs Vypers.

Ive always held the WW are superior to the vypers. I am taking an army with Vypers in it for thematic reasons but why would you normally choose a Vyper over WW?

Both cost base 50 points.
Both have 6 wounds.
they have 3+ to hit.

Vyper is 16" move (20" for limited time mayber) the WW is 10"
Vyper is 3+ save, WW is 4+ with 5++
Vyper is T5 and WW is T6
Vyper has Fly Keyword
WW is better in hth with 3+ to hit and 2 attacks at STR 5
Vyper at most can take 1 Heavy plus perhaps a Shuriken Cannon. The WW can take a bigger loadout or go the same (the only thing they cannot do is take the cheaper twin linked shuriken catapults)
WW have Battle Focus. So they can Advance and not suffer a penalty if using Shuriken Canons (Vypers have to take Saim Hann){AND this wont work for Assault weapons, just Heavy} [Thus a 2 shuriken cannon loadout on both would limit the Vyper to 16" move vs 10" + d6" for the WW...almost negligible]
WW have the Scout feature for free. A Vyper unit would have to spend CP to get Cloudstrike (which is marginally better)
The Vyper is a Biker keyword so they can benefit from some of the Psychics.

Fly and Biker keyword must have a high value for the designers. Getting out of hth ....is it that valuable for a shooting unit that doesn't plan to get entangled in CC?

This is a shooty version of 40K and LasCannons can drop stuff fast so every shot stopped on the PowerField is kinda good. Either Way if an opponent wants to remove a unit of 3 of either type it can be done on turn 1.

It just seems to me that the War Walker should be 5 to 10 points more than a Vyper.

Vypers 45 points/50 points
War Walkers 50 points/55 points sounds better to me.

Your thoughts on the units and your game experiences?

It depends on the rest of the army composition and the opponent, but usually the serpent would be the ideal choice. The problem with dropping in Dragons is that their short range can make it easy to zone them out with screening units, and they already lose their damage reroll by dropping in. Having to spend a turn inside the Wave Serpent delays their opportunity to get their job, but makes them far more reliable.

First off thanks for the response guys. Very informative. I'm a noob to the tourney scene and am going to one here shortly so trying to soak up info from more experienced players. My list is already locked in and is as follows:



Love this forum and thread and all the info I've gained from the knowledgeable posters!

So RAW can we use Fire and Fade to get back into a vehicle we just disembarked from?

I don't think so, but I'm asking you, my fellow farseers.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
So RAW can we use Fire and Fade to get back into a vehicle we just disembarked from?

I don't think so, but I'm asking you, my fellow farseers.

No. Fire and Fade does indeed allow you to embark onto a vehicle, however it does not override the basic vehicle embark/disembark restriction that a Transport can only embark OR disembark per turn, never both.

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 admironheart wrote:

This is a shooty version of 40K and LasCannons can drop stuff fast so every shot stopped on the PowerField is kinda good. Either Way if an opponent wants to remove a unit of 3 of either type it can be done on turn 1.

It just seems to me that the War Walker should be 5 to 10 points more than a Vyper.

Vypers 45 points/50 points
War Walkers 50 points/55 points sounds better to me.

Your thoughts on the units and your game experiences?

Have to admit I've only used em once but my 3 x Brightance WWs did a hell of a job recently.

I used them in conjunction with Fortune and at times Guide. Say you get shot at by a 4 lasercannon pred/devs, and they get 3 wounds through. You'll save one with the powerfields, then they will do 7 wounds (on average) with the other 2 hits. Fortune saves 2 of those and you are left with a WW with 1 wound left that doesn't degrade is still shooting next round and the unit intact. It won't last forever but in 8th ed you often don't need long.

They can't take fire from an entire gun line, but careful deployment can avoid that. As long as they can see the thing you have Doomed you're golden.

 Galef wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
So RAW can we use Fire and Fade to get back into a vehicle we just disembarked from?

I don't think so, but I'm asking you, my fellow farseers.

No. Fire and Fade does indeed allow you to embark onto a vehicle, however it does not override the basic vehicle embark/disembark restriction that a Transport can only embark OR disembark per turn, never both.

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Thank you. That's what I thought.

Regarding WW vs Vypers: As much as I prefer Vypers, I will always consider WW better. The main reason for this is the flexibility of having 2 heavy weapons. Vypers have to have 1 weapon be a shuricannon (cuz let's be honest, twin cats are a waste on Vypers).

If Vypers could take 2 BLs, I'd take them over WWs almost every time.
But once you add tactical reserve ability and the 5++, the WW is a no-brainer in comparison.

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Personally, I’ve opted for Vypers in my tourney list for this weekend – but that is only because of how my list worked out.

The way I see it, I’d never personally take WWs and I will only take Vypers if I am running a Saim-Hann detachment in the army. Being able to move and shoot without penalty is a great bonus for the Vyper, not to mention access to certain powers and stratagems. WWs for me are more of a “static” unit for me, and if I want a static unit I’d likely just take something else. Sure, their outflank etc is neat, but, you’d still then end up hitting on 4’s if you take anything other than double Shuriken Cannon.

Having FLY is also a massive benefit. You don’t really want either Vypers or WWs in combat, but, on the occasions they do get into combat, you have the benefit of leaving and shooting.

I totally agree Kdash.
As I mentioned, I prefer Vypers too, but objectively, I have to say WW are better.
Just like I agree the Reapers are the best heavy support option we have, but I won't take them because A) they aren't plastic, B) they are T3 and most importantly C) they aren't skimmers/jetbikes and only have a 6" move.

Another important advantage for WWs is that they have a 5++, which matter more for multi-wound models because the guns that will be aimed their way are likely AP -2 or better. Lascannons, for example, only give Vypers a 6+ save.
So while the Vyper is more resilient against small arms fire than WWs, both units are likely not taking small arms fire.

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I am a WW fan myself, I normally run my gunline from Beil-tan, farseer and 2 squads of 3 warwalkers. They are durable, accurate, and have a great level of flexibility when picking their weapons. But the real difference is do you need the mobility the vypers offer? If you need to redeploy your force as it was, or get everything moving quickly, that's where vypers edge out ww. Their speed allows a different level of tactical flexibility. But if your not moving them, warwalkers would be better.

Well, WWs aren't exactly slow this edition. Not only do they have the "infiltrate" ability, but M10" (+ Battle focus if you are using Shuricannons) isn't exactly slow.
Then again, if you are using Shuricannons, Vypers are probably just as good.

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