Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Toreador wrote:I do agree they tend to go boom a lot, but even in RL a lot tend to take a lot of damage and keep on running, it just takes them out of the battle.

One of the big issues is how much AT is/was available on th board. A Land Raider will have an easier time against the new Chaos and Ork lists!

How so vs. Chaos lists? Where they can still pack in plenty of Lascannon fire in the form of Oblits, where there can be up to 9 of them in an army?

They did a good job of eliminating tons of anti-tank/heavy weapon spam from armies except there.

They did a good job with chaos as well, yes you can take 9 - for what 700ish point? and that doesn't get you much in the line of assault or anti-infantry capability. As John said above, the later codices are reducing the amount of heavy AT by making it more expensive all round, and harder to take in any number in non-heavy slots.

edit - in fact I've been playing around with chaos today, whilst painting some more chaos models. I always feel as though any attempt to get any amount of lascannon is leaving me weak elsehwere. Possibly just cos I'm thinking in terms of how things used to be, where you would tack on a lascannon to your troops cos it was so cheap and easy and have at least 6 before you even got round to looking at heavy support. But the new chaos dex is how I think it should be for fitting in lascannon type weapons.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

Toreador wrote:I do agree they tend to go boom a lot, but even in RL a lot tend to take a lot of damage and keep on running, it just takes them out of the battle.

One of the big issues is how much AT is/was available on th board. A Land Raider will have an easier time against the new Chaos and Ork lists!

How so vs. Chaos lists? Where they can still pack in plenty of Lascannon fire in the form of Oblits, where there can be up to 9 of them in an army?

They did a good job of eliminating tons of anti-tank/heavy weapon spam from armies except there.

'


I don't have my Chaos Codex handy. Are they Elites or HS? If they're HS, than they're really no worse than three tri-Las Predator Annihilator. If Elites, then they have the same problem as Elite Dev Squads - they're in the wrong slot.

Oblits are HS. If someone really sinks the points into bringing all nine then they it is true they will have no problem brining down a Land Raider or two, but the points costs will leave them very weakened in other areas. Even at 2,000 pts. 1/3rd or so of their army is invested in 9 shots/turn at 3 targets.

And above of those Oblits...where are there any viable hvy weapons for Chaos? Bolt of Change?

SoB is mechanised...always...they forgot to add 'must buy a transport' to the Troop entry.

Just FYI, I've been busily re-working my Chaos army ever since the Codex came out, but in every build, I was going with really minimal Troops. It aways felt "wrong", but the other stuff was just too sexy not to take in quantity. With the change to only Troops as Scoring, I'll feel a lot better about taking more Troops and less non-Troops.

Really, I'm very excited about this, and I just ordered more Troops models in anticipation of the change.

vogelfrei wrote:And above of those Oblits...where are there any viable hvy weapons for Chaos? Bolt of Change?

Depending upon game pts. value 4-6 Oblits might do the trick while leaving points for other things-investing in the full 9 is rolling the dice.

They are in HS, and compete with vindicators and predators.
They are much more expensive in those three shots than a 3 las pread...

Give or take,.. give or take.

And you can still have your beloved 6-man las/plas squads, they're just called Chosen now, cost a bit more and take up Elite slots. Looks like the bargain tankbuster store closed, huh?

Mech Eldar may be getting nerfed in a big way, but it looks like Altaioc will be back in style if most of these rumors are true.

1. Improved cover rules would help- whether "improved" means more cover or more selective cover (meaning less for everyone else), those with cammo cloaks are likely to do well.

2. The leadership penalties from multiple shooting casualties will make a pinning strategy better. Although I do wonder about Dosadi's wording "There will be leadership modifiers for things like how many casualties you take from a given weapon...". I wonder whether that means single guns, a single type of weapon from one squad, or just all the shooting from one squad. Seems like the second of those choices would make more sense (or at least be less complex), but Emperor knows what the logic could be behind any of them.

3. They will also have a slightly higher chance to go through armor. Two chances really, if their rifles are rending, getting armor piercing on a 6 (or 5 and 6) to hit, plus a shot at rending on the to-wound roll. Pretty nice, really. Pity it won't stop that horde of Orks everyone will be fielding.


Not to get back to the rumor-release-to-bump-sales topic, but these rumors really do seem to favor Orks at a very convenient moment to do so. Hmmm.

Increased emphasis on leadership when taking shooting casualties will make Fearless units significantly undercosted. This plus reduced rending is going to make Plague marines much nastier.

Pardon the double post, but this was in the Warseer 5th ed. thread (52 pages of mostly useless opinion...).
A little sumthin' about Perils of the Warp:

(stolen from Warseer)
Dosadi said:

Did you hear that it now inflicts an automatic single wound not a S6 hit? No saves of any kind allowed. (except Ghosthelms )

'cause that's what I've heard.
That will make people stop complaining that their farseers are T3 now.

That's a nice change, unless you're a T4+ psyker.

I think they were making the change to favor Sanctioned Psykers.

(What? You've never seen a Sanctioned Psyker?)

And I don't think Eldar have much to fear about in your normal ork army. It's going to be a real hard battle, but eldar shuriken weapons can really lay down a huge volume of fire, while things like scorpions can help clean up smaller units. It ain't going to be easy, but it shouldn't be. Those smaller ork formations are going to really fear eldar snipers if the rumour is true.

Yes, the smaller units will be goners for sure. It's the 3-4 hugemungous mobs that I'm worried about.

Also, rumor has it that rending will be less effective against vehicles, but I wonder what sniper weapons with rending would look like for penetration rolls against vehicles. 2D6 plus an extra D6 for rending would be nice, but unlikely. If rending just gives a bonus on the damage table (which seems likely), then they won't get any better. But if it's a bonus D3 instead of the D6 or something wacky like that, that might actually be useful. More shots at Trukks, Raiders and Landspeeders are always useful when there's not many infantry to pick on.

btw, where does any rumor say only troops will be scoring units in 5th ed?

#12 Only troop choices as 'scoring?'

What a brilliantly simply change to fix comp (or reward good comp, however you want to spin it). I hope that one is true.

As long as they make it so nothing's virtually unkillable like Eldar Heavy Skimmers, then we could get something nice here.

Well, to me the SMF change is completely inconsequential now. Even if the rule wasn't changed at all, I can't see myself using 200 point transports carrying 170 point squads, neither of which can hold objectives. It's all abouts troop choices now, for every army. You max your troop choices (within reason) and then you see how many points you got left. Basically, my Eldar are going to the shelf and only come out of there for painting competitions. My new, incredibly interesting speedpaint 5th edition tournament army in 1.5K is Necron Lord with Orb and Veil, 46 Necron Warriors and 2x Monolith. In 1.85K you just get 20 Warriors more. Against armies that have long range guns the Warriors just run/march the first one or two turns to get into position. Necrons in that form aren't affected by the scoring unit change, since if those Warriors die the army phases out anyway.

Therion wrote: I can't see myself using 200 point transports carrying 170 point squads, neither of which can hold objectives.

Something needs to clear out the other guy from objectives, and those 170 pt squads do a damn good job of that. If there are 4 objectives then 4 66 point jetbike units hiding till the last turn to turbo boost in will win you the game whilst the 200 pt transports with 170 pt squads ensure that the other guy doesn't have any troops left to compete.

I doubt it is quite that easy - but all the non-scoring stuff will still have an important role in ensuring you get your troops to hold the objectives.

Gaunts without number will go from worst to best upgrade

the idea of "troops" only for holding objectives makes sense, you win wars with boots on the ground. but there has to be a rule .hold the objective for 1 turn because if not you could drive a transport on and dump troops last turn and we would still have the same problem we do now.

God loves the Infantry had to say it

puree wrote:

Therion wrote: I can't see myself using 200 point transports carrying 170 point squads, neither of which can hold objectives.

Something needs to clear out the other guy from objectives, and those 170 pt squads do a damn good job of that. If there are 4 objectives then 4 66 point jetbike units hiding till the last turn to turbo boost in will win you the game whilst the 200 pt transports with 170 pt squads ensure that the other guy doesn't have any troops left to compete.

I doubt it is quite that easy - but all the non-scoring stuff will still have an important role in ensuring you get your troops to hold the objectives.

Gaunts without number will go from worst to best upgrade

That strategy is all fine and dandy untill you run into an army that can either kill 8 Jetbikes that try to hide, or just swamp the objectives with so many scoring models that there's nothing to grab. What I'm saying is that some armies have the distinct advantage of troops choices that can kill anything in the game, like Ork Shoota Boyz with klaws and rokkits and Necron Warriors, and the new edition doesn't really give any incentive to pick anything else than those units. The less scoring units you take the more at a disadvantage you will be. Once your scoring units go below half strength you effectively phase out of the game. Does this mean Zilla Nids, DP/Oblits Chaos, tri-Falcon Eldar and Mech Tau are dead? Of course.

Someone already said that armies like Eldar haven't been designed with all purpose units in mind. They have specialised units mostly in Elite/FA/HS sections that are supposed to win you the game, and so they will be at a huge disadvantage no matter what units they take. Are you completely missing my point? Since being anything else than troops will be a huge disadvantage, a non-scoring unit has to be much more points efficient than any available troops choice for you to even consider taking it. For you to take 200 point transports that are easily shaken and which are non-scoring, they better be damn indestructible. They aren't, since they aren't only being reduced to non-scoring, they are also being made easily destructible. Same goes for the Harlequins, since their rending attacks are going down the toilet. The most scrutinising players might not field them anymore even if they were scoring, so the non-scoring factor simply makes the choice of not fielding them easy. For a Chaos player to spend 45% of his points in Obliterators they better have T6, since all they're good for is trying to whittle the opponent's troops choices down to non-scoring while the Chaos player will have only a precious few 5man scoring units for himself.

So, the power level of every codex is determined by how cheesy troops choices they have. If they have points efficient footslogger troop choices that can kill both tanks and infantry, they are going to be kicking ass left and right. Not only will they outnumber the opponent's scoring units and will have a tactical advantage, they will be incredibly resilient and because of the run rule fast enough to get wherever they want. A footslogger with the new run rule will always be more points efficient than a jetbiker or a jump packer because the latter two have to pay for their mobility.

Why don't people try playtesting some of these and see how it works? I'd be interested to see the feedback and may try it myself.

It's all theoryhammer until then.

Should we expect to see a leak of the 5th edition book a few months before its release like we saw with the ork codex, or does GW keep rule books under tighter wraps?

My 2 cents about troops being the only units that can claim objectives are that this might be indicative of changes in rules concerning transports and objective caliming.

Vehicle damage charts giving tanks a little more survivability means that rhinos and chimeras might be more appealing choices than they currently are. That coupled with the fact that troops are needed to claim objectives, might create an environment where tread transports are used more than they used to be.

Troops being the only unit types that can claim objectives is a nice way to balance out the advantage current specialized armies have. I like the fact that it's rumored that people who stack up on elites and fa are going to have re-tailor their lists. It's a built in comp system that if true, and I would be interested to see how it plays out.

I think if only troops can claim objectives then the new BA/DA armies are probabl in the best situation of all!

If it is only troops then having combat squads which means a single troop choice can claim two objectives is an amazing bonus!

Plus the fact that for the DA especially you can use Terminators and bikes as troops depending on your HQ I think they could be onto a winner there.

D6Veteran wrote:#12 Only troop choices as 'scoring?'

What a brilliantly simply change to fix comp (or reward good comp, however you want to spin it). I hope that one is true.

If this was a tabletop strategy game ala Avalon Hill I would wholeheartedly agree with you. Even in 40k, I still see your point. 40k is a miniatures game, however, and the fact is troops choices are boring. They are boring to paint and can be boring to play, depending on how you use them. For instance, there is no way I'm doing shading on my 20 guardians, they're getting a green helmet, sprayed white body, and a black gun, with some inking, maybe. My fire dragons, on the other hand, I don't mind spending hours lovingly painting them. At least until they get chipped.

Also makes the fun model kits less usefull, i.e. vehicles

Of course a lot remains to be seen, but, I'm really not liking a lot of what we're hearing about 5th edition...

And not that long ago, I was excited to see 4th getting "fixed"!

Wait and see is the order of the day, I know, but still!

Chaos can still take plenty of fun/powerful non troop units, then flood the table with lesser daemon troop units. 5 Lesser Daemons are 65pts. You only need a reliable way to get them summoned, possibly a couple bike sorcerer's with icons and lash to move around the table, summon daemons and lash enemy troops away from objectives/quarters.

guess its time to lead that archeological dig into my garage and dig out my hormies.

And it's not like tanks aren't still going to be able to tank shock troop units away from an objective, or Dire Avengers bladestorm a unit under half. There are still a lot of options, and with Eldar being a swiss knife army, with options to cover most things, I don't think they will have a problem with it. They are very very adaptable.

Harlequins loose what, 1/3 of their statistical kills on an average round with the change to rending? They still can kill almost any unit, have Hit &Run, Ignore Cover, and are hard to shoot. Suddenly this makes them from all powerful to horrible?

Toreador wrote:Harlequins loose what, 1/3 of their statistical kills on an average round with the change to rending? They still can kill almost any unit, have Hit &Run, Ignore Cover, and are hard to shoot. Suddenly this makes them from all powerful to horrible?

I agree, Harlies were already undercosted. Hmm.. I wonder if they factored 5th edition into the points cost. However the other big "rending" CC unit - Genestealers don't look like the automatic Tyranids troops choice any longer with Rending taking a hit and the potential need for large groups of troops choices to dominate an army selection.

Therion wrote: [...]Are you completely missing my point? Since being anything else than troops will be a huge disadvantage, [...]

No i didn't miss your point. Yes more emphasis on troops looks like how it is going to be if the rumour is true, but troops aren't gong to win against lists that include other stuff as well. Troops on the whole don't have the Anti-tank/anti-assault/mobility to beat out choices that are often available in fast/elite/heavy. Yes there are a lot of other rumours as well about how other things are changing, but I doubt that will alter the fact that harlies delivered into assault are still going to put a serious crimp on a troops only list. And what troops are going to kill hidden jetbikes? The sort of thing that can readily take out hidden fast jetbikes or the like are normally going to be non-troop choices that have been choosen for the sort of reason I noted - to take out enemy troops/protect yours so that it is your troops and not his that get to the objectives.

Yes troops could be more important than ever before, but it is hyperbole to suggest that we are going to throw away all the other stuff from our lists - unless you really know something about next edition that we haven't heard so far.

Given that there is another rumour that there is no such thing as an "Alpha/Gamma/Omega" mission, perhaps it's not out of the realm of possibility that the missions themselves are changing as well, and the fact that only troops can claim "objectives" is now meaningless until we find out what type and how many objectives are in any given scenario?

(Man that was a long sentence! A thousand apologies )

Viperion