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Frazzled wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Dronze wrote:I've got a few fundies in the family tree.... nothing more obnoxious than someone being so ignorant as to read the opening page of your 4th edition mini-rulebook (the Mcragge boxed set, clearly marked "Rule Book" in sizable letters on the cover) and then following up with a question as wantonly moronic as "So, do you believe all of this is real?" whilst you build plastic models.

I almost called a buddy of mine for an early ride home after that one. I don't tolerate willful ignorance too well.

My only other comment is that this woman also home-schools her kids. May their god have mercy on them, because reality certainly won't when their ignorance of things like actual science and how life in the real world works is revealed...

Yeah, for some reason very religious people have difficulties distinguishing a fictional book filled with gods, devils, heroes and monsters from reality.

I wonder why that might be.


A

Bercause dickheads who make fun of them abound on the internet?

So which part of my statement do you disagree with.

That the bible isn't considered accurately real by some Christians?

That the bible doesn't contain gods, devils, magic, heroes and monsters?

Or is it the implication that some christians find it hard to distinguish a clearly fantastic work from reality?

I assume the latter point and I have 4 words for you. Harry Potter teaches witchcraft.

A

Dronze wrote:
So, it's been a while since i last checked, but "Thou Shalt Not Kill" has been removed from the bible?

It isn't necessarily "Though Shalt Not Kill", its also translated as "Though Shalt Not Murder". In biblical parlance the word 'kill' is used to describe justifiable homicide (eg. killing in self-defense, killing enemies, etc.), while murder is used to describe unjustifiable homicide (killing other Christians, killing Jews, killing the weak, killing the benign, etc.). This is one of the more common misunderstanding that pops up when discussing the Bible.

Dronze wrote:
I'd say that's a pretty solid prohibition, clearly worded, no real exceptions given as such. If we're going by the issue of the simulation of whichcraft versus the simulation of racial cleansing, I'd say Genocide, defined as the "systematic killing of a racial or cultural group" certainly qualifies, wouldn't you?

No, because as I said, it isn't necessarily "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Conceivably, within the logic of the game as presented, genocide is fully justifiable; primarily because its essentially a matter of survival in the 40k universe. Witchcraft, on the other hand, isn't seen as justifiable by any translation of the Bible which I have encountered.

Dogma wrote:It isn't necessarily "Though Shalt Not Kill", its also translated as "Though Shalt Not Murder". In biblical parlance the word 'kill' is used to describe justifiable homicide (eg. killing in self-defense, killing enemies, etc.), while murder is used to describe unjustifiable homicide (killing other Christians, killing Jews, killing the weak, killing the benign, etc.). This is one of the more common misunderstanding that pops up when discussing the Bible.

It's also terribly convenient. Suspiciously so.

Albatross wrote:
It's also terribly convenient. Suspiciously so.

Hey man, I'm just a humble messenger. Check it out.

@Dogma - I did. It didn't make a very convincing case. I'm not going to debate scripture with you in any great depth (purely because I don't wish to offend anyone simply for the sake of it...), but I will say that I was expecting a breakdown of the translation of that particular commandment, rather than a convenient recontextualisation.

dogma wrote:

Albatross wrote:
It's also terribly convenient. Suspiciously so.

Hey man, I'm just a humble messenger. Check it out.

I don't really see how the biased translation of a non-secular website qualifies as a definative counterargument or evidence of support here, especially given the fact that most religious groups will translate some parts and take others word for word at it's literal value.

Dronze wrote:

dogma wrote:

Albatross wrote:
It's also terribly convenient. Suspiciously so.

Hey man, I'm just a humble messenger. Check it out.

I don't really see how the biased translation of a non-secular website qualifies as a definative counterargument or evidence of support here, especially given the fact that most religious groups will translate some parts and take others word for word at it's literal value.

For one neither side is unbiased.

Two, this website didn't make up this argument. It has been a sticking point for a long time. Longer then any of us have been alive on this board.

Trickier question. Define murder! You can murder an animal, no? Humans -are- animals, no? Can't you murder in self-defence?

Dronze wrote:
I don't really see how the biased translation of a non-secular website qualifies as a definative counterargument or evidence of support here, especially given the fact that most religious groups will translate some parts and take others word for word at it's literal value.

See, here's where you're going to fall into a lot of holes. I don't have to prove that the Bible can be definitely said to include the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Murder" as opposed to "Thou Shalt Not Kill". I only need to prove that people believe that such a translation is valid in order to discredit the notion that we can regard your conclusion as a necessary antecedent. Remember your paradoxes of material implication. Any premise which does not correlate with reality is functionally useless with respect to an argument meant to pertain to it.

bsohi wrote:Trickier question. Define murder! You can murder an animal, no? Humans -are- animals, no? Can't you murder in self-defence?

Murder is generally defined as the unlawful killing of a human being.

Albatross wrote:@Dogma - I did. It didn't make a very convincing case. I'm not going to debate scripture with you in any great depth (purely because I don't wish to offend anyone simply for the sake of it...), but I will say that I was expecting a breakdown of the translation of that particular commandment, rather than a convenient recontextualisation.

This particular argument has been around since...well since the Bible was written. However, the short of it is that many view the word murder to be a superior translation in light of the many instances of justified violence committed in the Bible. Its a means of improving the communicative value of the commandments intended to be the essential tenets of Christian morality. It is an issue of translation, but not the sort which is word for word, which is par for the course when translating any source written in a dead language.

LOL!!!!

Because you know you want to.

Whats the saying?


Don't open it if you can't handle it?

Albatross wrote:

Dogma wrote:Witchcraft being a thing without a tangibly evident example allows it to be regarded as distinct from genocide.

Weeeeell... not strictly speaking. Witchcraft is something which is practiced by many people in different parts of the world - it also depends on your definition of the word. Various 'primitive' (I use the term advisedly...) religions/cults engage in practices which could be considered 'witchcraft' by some christians. Sorry to nit-pick.

But the ACTUAL summoning/existence of Demons? Yeah, fair enough - not demonstrable.

Witchcraft exists as a practice in various different cultures, however there is no evidence of it producing any real world effects other than by placebo. (Saving of course the injuries, etc. caused to victims by the physical behaviour of the practicioners.)

I’m with Dogma. The logic defining someone who is less-comfortable with the representations of magic and daemons in the game than with the themes of violence, war, and oppression as a hypocrite, is not solid by any means. Different people are made uncomfortable by different things, and while the basis of their preferences may or may not be logical, that does not make them a monster or a sociopath.

The interpretation of “Thou Shalt Not Kill” really meaning “Thou Shalt Not Murder” is well-known to anyone who does any even casual Biblical study, or touches on it in comparative religion. It becomes obvious to anyone reading the old testament, given how much deity-sanctioned violence is in there, that killing is permitted under a number of circumstances, but murder (ie: unlawful / unjustified killing of people) is not.

Mannahnin wrote:I’m with Dogma. The logic defining someone who is less-comfortable with the representations of magic and daemons in the game than with the themes of violence, war, and oppression as a hypocrite, is not solid by any means. Different people are made uncomfortable by different things, and while the basis of their preferences may or may not be logical, that does not make them a monster or a sociopath.

Yeah, this. It's an especially odd claim that someone shouldn't be bothered by spellcasters in their army, when there's so many people in thread who appear to be so bothered about the gaming preferences of people they've never met.

We all have trivial things that shouldn't bother us, but often do. Let it go.

Ketara wrote:I'm not too sure having a scottish great grandfather makes you scottish. I know a lot of scottish people get hacked off when americans come over and start wearing kilts and pretending to be scottish.

It does if your grandfather, grandmother, father, mother were scottish. When immigration occured all of the cultures kind of kept to themselves in places like "Little Italy", "Little China", that one ride in Disneyland where all of the dwarfs live. So it's not impossible to have a pure Italian family in america just as its not impossible for a pure blooded scottish person and a pure blooded irish person to have kids that are a mix of Irish and Scottish who wear kilts, but only after a large amount of Guiness.

But why did this conversation get to this and the whole "Thou shalt not kill" is actually "Thou shalt not murder" thing?

KK wrote:Witchcraft exists as a practice in various different cultures, however there is no evidence of it producing any real world effects other than by placebo. (Saving of course the injuries, etc. caused to victims by the physical behaviour of the practicioners.)

Erm... yeah. That's what I said - isn't it? There's also an interesting parallel to be drawn, but let's not go there.

DELETED FOR WASTING SPACE, DERAILING THREAD, AND MISSING THE POINT

I'm glad you enjoyed sharing with us your cathartic experience of breaking up with a teenage girl. Those evil Christians sure are evil. I'm amazed we haven't discussed this before in the OT.

BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:
I had a friend who went through exactly the same thing.

Its funny what people believe in and whats excused "Evil Wise" and whats not.

Problem with Christians is they have a different Sin of the week I went out with a Christian girl but her spiritual rantings and self Flaglations soon p***ed me right off the same girl in question looked at the hobby I did as evil until she actually read a Codex and realised its "Fiction"

Call me mean but the break up was the most fun ive had at the time. I quite curtly told her that god doesnt exist and she cried she cried and rennouced me as evil and that the Rapture wouldnt take me that id burn on Earth heheheh with Christians you are certain of ONE thing Hypocritical statements and mental torture unless of course their with other Christians.

I never cease to be amazed by how people broadbrush and generalize, based on their own limited experiance.

"My exgirlfriend was X so therefore all Christians are X."

I'm also saddened by the amount of pleasure you claim to have taken in your cruelty.

GG

halonachos wrote:
But why did this conversation get to this and the whole "Thou shalt not kill" is actually "Thou shalt not murder" thing?

Counter-argument to the notion that a Christian applying his real-world morality to the game of 40k could not be comfortable with genocide. Not that Christianity endorses, or is comfortable with, genocide, but that in a fictional universe where everyone is evil it could be considered a type of justified violence on a purely hypothetical level.

BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:with Christians you are certain of ONE thing Hypocritical statements and mental torture

the break up was the most fun ive had at the time. I quite curtly told her that god doesnt exist and she cried she cried and rennouced me as evil

So wait, are you Christian or not?

No and Frazzled makes one of his stirling quotes again that lend in NO way any weight to proceedings at all look below to refresh yourself of his non descript greatness trying to be clever for the sake of being well......god knows if wit was s**t he'd be backed up and in need of colonic Irrigation

Frazzled wrote: I'm glad you enjoyed sharing with us your cathartic experience of breaking up with a teenage girl. Those evil Christians sure are evil. I'm amazed we haven't discussed this before in the OT.

Didnt mention she was teenaged did i this was a MATURE woman and yes I indulge in cruelty after all I am but Human.

And dude I dont like ANY religion i think its irrational and hypocritical... How one would devote themselves to something clearly not real
it makes me laugh.

Wow, Just wow.... how about having some respect for people's beliefs Boss_Pimpalotz, and like GG said, just because you have had X exprience with a Christian doesnt mean all Christians are like that.

Your clearly a twelve year old, well you're as immature as one...

Lord-Loss wrote:Wow, Just wow.... how about having some respect for people's beliefs Boss_Pimpalotz, and like GG said, just because you have had X exprience with a Christian doesnt mean all Christians are like that.

Your clearly a twelve year old, well you're as immature as one...

Id revaluate what you just said.......seriously go and have a long think maybe some herbal tea with that.... are you a Christian???

Hey, if you're going to let people villainize Christians and insult their beliefs in this thread, I'm going to start preaching soon, 'kay?

---Emperor bless and cherish you!
Frankie

Petite Francois wrote:Hey, if you're going to let people villainize Christians and insult their beliefs in this thread, I'm going to start preaching soon, 'kay?

---Emperor bless and cherish you!
Frankie

Give me reasons why we who think its Hypocritical shouldnt??

I've never tried herbal tea, I should add that to my 'Foods I need to try' list, currently it's got Haggis on it.

are you a Christian???

Nope, try again.

Lord-Loss wrote:I've never tried herbal tea, I should add that to my 'Foods I need to try' list, currently it's got Haggis on it.

are you a Christian???

Nope, try again.

Your back was getting up so I assumed you were......

And thats nice....

BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:No and Frazzled makes one of his stirling quotes again that lend in NO way any weight to proceedings at all look below to refresh yourself of his non descript greatness trying to be clever for the sake of being well......god knows if wit was s**t he'd be backed up and in need of colonic Irrigation

Frazzled wrote: I'm glad you enjoyed sharing with us your cathartic experience of breaking up with a teenage girl. Those evil Christians sure are evil. I'm amazed we haven't discussed this before in the OT.

Didnt mention she was teenaged did i this was a MATURE woman and yes I indulge in cruelty after all I am but Human.

And dude I dont like ANY religion i think its irrational and hypocritical... How one would devote themselves to something clearly not real
it makes me laugh.

You're right you didn't state you were a teenager. I apologize. I mistakenly thought you were a teenager because adults don't act like that because they, you know, grew up and quit acting like babies. Please forgive me.

If the thread wasn't bad enough, we now have the proverbial rabbit hole that all these threads take.


The rabbit hole is usually opened up by some Johnny come lately that decides... Hey Trolling is fun!!


IB4L

GG

BOSS_PIMPALOTZ wrote:
Give me reasons why we who think its Hypocritical shouldnt??

You believe its hypocritical en masse because you aren't thinking, not because you are.

Even if one instance of said behavior is hypocritical, it doesn't follow that all are.