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JEB wrote:This thread has, like all threads on religion, devolved into stupidity. I mean, how can someone seriously claim that because one does play this game it is considered tacit approval to genocide, murder, etc., and in the same breath call them "ethical monsters" for ignoring the witchcraft or demonic element. Seriously dude, grow up and go paint some minis. Let people enjoy the hobby the way they see fit and shut up.

Bit harsh, JEB. I think what he was driving at was that if you are uncomfortable with playing Daemons, why should you be any more comfortable playing Space Fascists *ahem* Marines?


p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.

Dronze wrote:I've got a few fundies in the family tree.... nothing more obnoxious than someone being so ignorant as to read the opening page of your 4th edition mini-rulebook (the Mcragge boxed set, clearly marked "Rule Book" in sizable letters on the cover) and then following up with a question as wantonly moronic as "So, do you believe all of this is real?" whilst you build plastic models.

I almost called a buddy of mine for an early ride home after that one. I don't tolerate willful ignorance too well.

My only other comment is that this woman also home-schools her kids. May their god have mercy on them, because reality certainly won't when their ignorance of things like actual science and how life in the real world works is revealed...

Yeah, for some reason very religious people have difficulties distinguishing a fictional book filled with gods, devils, heroes and monsters from reality.

I wonder why that might be.


A

bbb wrote:

Dronze wrote:#2 Based on Given Points #1, #2, #3 and #4, because the user is uncomfortable with one thematic element, but will still play a list that is lacking said element, that suggests complacency with genocide, religious persecution, and xenophobia.

I disagree with your assertion that they are complacent with genocide, religious persecution, and xenophobia. By your reasoning, if someone played Warhammer and included Fimir in their army you would infer that they are complacent with rape. If they played a Khorne army they'd be complacent with murder and hate. Just because the person has a hang-up where they don't feel comfortable personally "role-playing" a certain element of a game doesn't mean they approve of every other element that could be disagreeable to some or all.

If they had made the decisions within the pretexts given, that could very well logically hold true. The scope of my argument is not general. the scope of my argument is specific. If the subject has an issue with whichcraft, then fine, whatever, good on them. It is their choice, as that is freedom of religion. If the subject has an issue with a game mechanic that they don't like, and thus don't take psykers as a result, then bully for them as well. My issue is when you take the first statement:

"If the subject has an issue with whichcraft"

And then you merge it with the second half of the second statement:

"and thus don't take psykers as a result"

This is where the ethical issue comes in. If you are choosing not to run casters in a game because you have an issue with the fact that they use a game mechanic that "simulates" casting a spell in an abstraction of a battle in a science fiction or fantasy setting, then you are generically saying that you've got no issue with any of the other real-life analogues within the thematic elements of the game.

Hence: People who use real-life, moral justification for not utilizing a game mechanic should also be applying that same justification in their choice to play the rest of the game.

Ultimately, if your blanket statements fell into the scope of my narrow, conditional arguments then yes, that would be true. A player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play witches or psykers, who then chooses to play a Khornate army, would, indeed, be complacent with murder, hate, and even corpse mutilation. Just like a player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play Chaos Daemons, but then included Fimir in their list could be called complacent to rape.

This does not mean that a player who, in wanting to run a fluffy army, chooses to run a Khornate army, would be complacent in such things, as they are making their decision in the spirit of the game, rather than some twisted moral justification that the subject, in their own free will, picks and chooses what parts of the game they're actually offended by, and by process of elimination, have no overt issue with.

Of course, that issue can be resolved from a standpoint of valuation.

Simply because someone refuses to utilize a given game mechanic on moral grounds it does not follow that they do not have a moral issue with other game mechanics which they do employ. All that is implied is that the moral imperative is sufficient, in the case of a simulation of witchcraft, to make the gamer in question feel uncomfortable. He may also have a moral issue with genocide, murder, war, or rape, but that issue isn't strong enough to be made manifest in the context of a war game.

Now, you could claim that such a view trivializes those members of the latter list, or you could argue that it doesn't, and the person in question just really dislikes witchcraft. There isn't enough information to reach a comprehensive conclusion.

Additionally, it could also be argued that witchcraft is fundamentally distinct from things like genocide, as it involves immaterial concepts, rather than strictly material ones; eg. a simulation of witchcraft is not like a simulation of violence.

Kilkrazy wrote:All I can say is Thank God there isn't any sex in 40K or we would be in a real mess.

One word: SLAANESH.

That is all.

@dogma: Person A limits themselves in participating from Activity B, be it in real-life or fantasy gaming. Person A engages in Activity C during fantasy gaming. Therefore, person A approves of Activity C in real life as well? I'm going to give you my highest level of reprimand:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:@dogma: Person A limits themselves in participating from Activity B, be it in real-life or fantasy gaming. Person A engages in Activity C during fantasy gaming. Therefore, person A approves of Activity C in real life as well? I'm going to give you my highest level of reprimand:

No, that isn't what I wrote. Thanks for playing though.

In any case, this entire conversation is being carried out in the context of a person who does refrain from elements gaming because it correlates to something which he considers to be reprehensible in real life; thus establishing the cross-over in a particular case.

Albatross wrote:Bit harsh, JEB. I think what he was driving at was that if you are uncomfortable with playing Daemons, why should you be any more comfortable playing Space Fascists *ahem* Marines?

We're a strange mob, and what does bother us generally makes little sense in the context of what doesn't.

I wouldn't play SS troops in FoW, but I'd happily play regular Wehrmacht, despite being fully aware that the regular Wehrmacht also committed a vast number of atrocities. I'd play pirates or viking raiders, and we all know what they really got up to. I guess what a soldier really was isn't as big a deal as what a soldier makes us think of when we're playing them - I can see a Wehrmacht soldier and think 'German dude', I can't see an SS guy without thinking 'Nazi bastard'.

If someone likes the game but is uncomfortable with spellcasting, well let 'em play, it ain't a big thing. It might even encourage a unique playing style. I quite like the idea of an Eldar army that doesn't have Eldrad.

p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.

I don't think so. I know that magic isn't, but i'm not sure about witchcraft. But in all honesty, scripture doesn't mention any of these themes we're talking about very often anyway. Demons and satan are mentioned in the bible, but I don't think they are brought up all the time.

In the OT (Old Testament, not Off-Topic forum ) I believe witchcraft is mentioned and forbidden several times...

However, there is a funny instance in that a king of Israel (Saul, I believe) goes to a diviner of some kind, who raises the dead spirit of Samuel (the prophet who predicted he'd be king, and then anointed David king later) to ask him a question.

These kinds of things are usually explained away by saying that in the OT people did a lot of things that god didn't approve of... but I think it's kind of funny.

Like I said I'm agnostic and all that... but I still know a pretty good bit about that stuff from back in the day...

Albatross wrote:
p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.

Did a quick search for you.

Not sure which version this is.

Deut 18:10
"There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer"

Deut 18:14
"For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so."

1 Samuel 15:23
"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."

2 Kings 17:17
"Then they made their sons and their daughters pass through the fire, and practiced divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him."

2 Kings 21:6
"He made his son pass through the fire, practiced witchcraft and used divination, and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD provoking Him to anger."

2 Chron 33:6
"He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger."

Acts19:19
And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Ga 5:20* idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

Re 18:23* and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery..

Hope that helps.


GG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies
Seemed relevent. Lets just be happy that video games got rid of the heat from us wargamers.
But honestly if my grandparents found out ever about the fluff before they died(god rest there souls) they might had a real cow. my mom might to. luckily they werent that interested. But I might have to answer them about it when i get to heaven.

Hence: People who use real-life, moral justification for not utilizing a game mechanic should also be applying that same justification in their choice to play the rest of the game.

@dronze I have to disagree. I play Flames of War and it is not uncommon to run across players that refuse to play Waffen SS. They understand fielding SS would NOT make them a NAZI, but they are still uncomfortable with it.

Hah, sounds like this guy is a bit of a turkey.

Mannahnin wrote:As the risk of coming close to Godwin's Law...

While I personally might think that being uncomfortable running a daemon army seems a bit silly, I can understand it more when I picture myself running an SS-based army in a WWII game. I personally wouldn't be interested in running a true Nazi force (though a regular wehrmacht might be cool), and I might be concerned about what people thought I was identifying with did I indeed field an army with swastika iconography.

When I think about that example, I can wrap my head around the idea of not wanting to field daemons.

That's exactly my thoughts (and why I play neither Daemons or WWII German forces)


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Albatross wrote:p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.

In addition to the passages citeabove, there is this passage, commonly referred to as the "Witch of Endor"

1 Samuel 28, King James Version wrote: 3Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

4And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.

5And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.

6And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

7Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

8And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Dronze wrote:This is where the ethical issue comes in. If you are choosing not to run casters in a game because you have an issue with the fact that they use a game mechanic that "simulates" casting a spell in an abstraction of a battle in a science fiction or fantasy setting, then you are generically saying that you've got no issue with any of the other real-life analogues within the thematic elements of the game.

Hence: People who use real-life, moral justification for not utilizing a game mechanic should also be applying that same justification in their choice to play the rest of the game.

Ultimately, if your blanket statements fell into the scope of my narrow, conditional arguments then yes, that would be true. A player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play witches or psykers, who then chooses to play a Khornate army, would, indeed, be complacent with murder, hate, and even corpse mutilation. Just like a player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play Chaos Daemons, but then included Fimir in their list could be called complacent to rape.

While your point is logical, I don't think it's necessarily sensible to say that a person is beholden to be consistent in what they feel comfortable or uncomfortable with; at least in something as generally unimportant as wargaming.

A person has much more to fear from a wasp than a garter snake, but there are still people who cannot stand snakes - and knowing that the garter snake s harmless doesn't seem to matter much, they know it's an emotional reaction.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Dronze wrote:This is where the ethical issue comes in. If you are choosing not to run casters in a game because you have an issue with the fact that they use a game mechanic that "simulates" casting a spell in an abstraction of a battle in a science fiction or fantasy setting, then you are generically saying that you've got no issue with any of the other real-life analogues within the thematic elements of the game.

Hence: People who use real-life, moral justification for not utilizing a game mechanic should also be applying that same justification in their choice to play the rest of the game.

Ultimately, if your blanket statements fell into the scope of my narrow, conditional arguments then yes, that would be true. A player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play witches or psykers, who then chooses to play a Khornate army, would, indeed, be complacent with murder, hate, and even corpse mutilation. Just like a player who, on moral grounds, refuses to play Chaos Daemons, but then included Fimir in their list could be called complacent to rape.

While your point is logical, I don't think it's necessarily sensible to say that a person is beholden to be consistent in what they feel comfortable or uncomfortable with; at least in something as generally unimportant as wargaming.

A person has much more to fear from a wasp than a garter snake, but there are still people who cannot stand snakes - and knowing that the garter snake s harmless doesn't seem to matter much, they know it's an emotional reaction.

But the difference here is that it is choice, not instinct. We've evolve to fear the animals that can o the most amage to us. Wasps are more the exception than the rule, and are only really dangerous in swarms unless you've got an allergy to their venom. With snakes, it only takes 1 to do a lot of tissue damage, and/or kill you in a rather grusome spectacle of pain and agony. We're talking about a choice. What one CHOOSES to do as a pastime. There is no instinct here, only a willingness to overlook certain thematic elements that are, honestly, less socially acceptable than casting spells, as they are real world issues that people in some parts of the world deal with on a day to day basis.

It's a game. It has only stylistic cues from real life and modern society, as any piece of art, commercial or not, will tend to have. To say that it's all good guys and bad guys is to take a few exceedingly ignorant standpoints: The existance of good and evil as anything beyond a social standard set by the society making the observations, becoming something real, standardized, and tangible in the form of influences and people society finds distasteful in extreme, and that social, economic, political and religious facism are, when carried out in the "best interests of the people" quite alright.

In the light of the arguments given, as the subject is applying their real world morals to the game, why do they feel the need to pick and choose what parts of their morality, which, upon making the distinction, cease to actually be morals for the subject player, and merely become social trivialities. Not only does it devalue the impact of human genocide, it actually serves as a quiet complacency with the idea. If it's just a game, then why does the idea of a magic user/psychic/daemon bother this particular type of player so much? Meanwhile they're more than happy to overlook the issues of human sacrifice, racism, sanctioned genocide, and persecution that run rampant throughout the given mythos.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180082_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Maelstrom_of_Gore.pdf

The above is a prime example. Psykers in 40k bother the subject, and yet, the Maelstrom Of Gore, a rainstrom created by boiling out the blood of 888 human sacrifices until the sky runs red with blood and the vital fluids pours down upon the battlefield, doesn't? If you're going to play the game, then at least do so with the understanding that it is only a game. Like I said before, the only reason anyone who plays this game should have an issue with any of the thematic elements is because the suspension of disbelief has failed them, as there was never any disbelief to suspend. It is the responsability of the user to recognize that the game is just that, a game. It's not real. No part of it is actually real. The gaming part of our hobby is merely a set of abstractions that dictate the interactions and determining the outcomes of of those interactions of fictional characters in a fictional setting. This being said, if one is unable to separate fiction from reality, they're probably not the best candidates to be playing complex games, and should likely seek professional help. This particular aversion is no different than the behaviors and actions of the guy that doesn't realize that when the dice are put up and the character sheets are put away that the game is done, leading to those annoying little disclaimers on the inside of all of White Wolf Studio's rulebooks.

As far as the FoW people who wouldn't play as the SS, that's a slightly different approach, though, that being said, you're then getting into historical wargaming, which has a number of stigmas attached to the armies of various nations in any time period. FoW is more a matter of comparing one's tactical and strategic prowess using forces that were, to some degree, historically accurate. Having an SS army says nothing for the user beyond the fact that they are willing to overlook the stigma atteched to this group and acknowledge that they were a major part of this particular war, as long as they're not goose-stepping around the game store shouting Nazi slogans.

Dronze wrote:There is no instinct here, only a willingness to overlook certain thematic elements that are, honestly, less socially acceptable than casting spells, as they are real world issues that people in some parts of the world deal with on a day to day basis.

However, as you've already pointed out, instinct is largely driven by a fear of harm. Presumably someone who is deeply religious would fear any potential harm to their soul. Witchcraft being considered something which can damage a Christian soul, it stands to reason that certain Christians would have an aversion to it; particularly given the nebulous nature of the occult. As I said above, a simulation of the arcane can be considered something distinct from the simulation of genocide.

Dronze wrote: Not only does it devalue the impact of human genocide, it actually serves as a quiet complacency with the idea.

That isn't necessarily true. Valuation is not a black and white sort of thing. The fact that someone can consider a certain thing worse than even the most reprehensible act another person can conceive of does not imply that the second act is any less reprehensible.

Hehe, I went through this over 30 years ago, back when the college I was attending banned D&D. Even had a large assembly to explain why, etc etc. To be fair, it was a church-owned and operated private college (Lee College, Cleveland, TN, Church of God. I was the token reprobate on campus......... Had to have someone for the ministry students to practice on), so I can kinda understand their stance. BUT! when I got to the open mike they had and asked what information they were basing their decision on, it took a minute or two for them to admit that they had "read the outside of the box" and that was it. I even pressed the issue, "So, you've never actually read any of the rules or anything?" Correct. So hadn't read any rules, nothing, banning it basically on hearsay and the brief description on the outside of the Basic D&D box set. The Men's dean later impressed me by asking to borrow my books so he could check them out. When he returned them he admitted that while he wouldn't feel comfortable playing it, it wasn't what they had been led to believe. Still banned, mind you, but at least one of them actually checked it out. Didn't matter, I lived off-campus and we just played at my house.

My noble legions?! Space fascists!? Never! It may sound a bit odd coming from a 30 year old man, but i do kinda let the fluff affect my choice of army. I mean, i play only Ultramarines for several reasons ive already mentioned, (and to annoy pretentious nerds who for some reason have an odd distaste for them!) but if im honest, im cool with orcs and their good honest love of war, the tau, the theocratic but nonetheless noble imperial forces and even the alien eldar. But i dont know, i just think the DE are disgusting space perverts, the necrons want to extinguish all life and chaos want pretty much the same.. I think those three are just a bit TOO evil for my tastes! Does anyone else feel like that or am i a bit childish? :-)


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Oh and i dont even dislike nids, them lads are just hungry. :-)

dogma wrote:Witchcraft being considered something which can damage a Christian soul, it stands to reason that certain Christians would have an aversion to it; particularly given the nebulous nature of the occult. As I said above, a simulation of the arcane can be considered something distinct from the simulation of genocide.

What would be the official stance of various christian institutions? Does it vary a lot?

The interpretation of what would be considered a sin, seems an important part of this conversation. Would the thought of sin, be borderline sin in itself? Sounds a bit strict really.

@ mattyrm - Chaos just want everyone to have fun, for the fittest to rise to the top and BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD... erm... I mean they want people to revel in their human nature, rather than suppressing it under a thin layer of civility.

@generalgrog: Who's Duet? As a book from the bible I can't say I've ever heard of it.


Anyway, back On Topic:

When I was just starting out in the hobby back in Dubai I visited a Games Workshop store with my parents. I was having fun, looking around and checking out the cool table when I hear the femal store owner talking to my parents. (Who are particularily religeous, might I add)

Store Lady: Oh yeah. I'm a witch.

Parents: oh...

Store Lady: You know what I mean, just a closet kind of witch. It's not like I get out on my broom everynight and fly around.

She went on for a fair bit, but as soon as I heard that I knew there was no way in hell that I would be allowed to come to that store any more. My parents held their composure inside, but when we got out they freaked.

Wrexasaur wrote:
What would be the official stance of various christian institutions? Does it vary a lot?

As far as I know there aren't any major Christian institutions which preoccupy themselves with the theological, and ethical, ramifications of simulations.

Wrexasaur wrote:
The interpretation of what would be considered a sin, seems an important part of this conversation. Would the thought of sin, be borderline sin in itself? Sounds a bit strict really.

I know of certain people who treat the thought of sin as tantamount to sin, but its rare. Most often the thought of sin is simply, and to my mind correctly, regarded as temptation which is to be resisted. That said, I don't know many people who like to tempt themselves with things they want to avoid, so in that light avoiding anything associated with magic makes good sense.

After all, its reasonable to assume that someone could be presented with the opportunity to dabble in the occult. Far more likely, anyway, than being presented with the opportunity to commit genocide.

dogma wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:
What would be the official stance of various christian institutions? Does it vary a lot?

As far as I know there aren't any major Christian institutions which preoccupy themselves with the theological, and ethical, ramifications of simulations.

Wrexasaur wrote:
The interpretation of what would be considered a sin, seems an important part of this conversation. Would the thought of sin, be borderline sin in itself? Sounds a bit strict really.

I know of certain people who treat the thought of sin as tantamount to sin, but its rare. Most often the thought of sin is simply, and to my mind correctly, regarded as temptation which is to be resisted. That said, I don't know many people who like to tempt themselves with things they want to avoid, so in that light avoiding anything associated with magic makes good sense.

But it's NOT magic, is the whole point. It's merely a game mechanic, which brings us, once again, to the issue of being able to tell fiction and fantasy from reality. If they want to avoid anything associated with magic, then why are they choosing to play the game to begin with? It is an integral part of the game., and even beyond that point, they would, by their own beliefs and moral standards, then have to avoid playing a game with anyone else who did use this particular mechanic, as it would be allowing themselves to be influenced by their opponent's witchcraft. No matter how one slices it, there is still no reasonable justification for trying to bring one's morals into the logical aspects of a hobby game.

After all, its reasonable to assume that someone could be presented with the opportunity to dabble in the occult. Far more likely, anyway, than being presented with the opportunity to commit genocide.

Genocide is like charity... it all starts at home.

Oh and i dont even dislike nids, them lads are just hungry. :-)


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sorry for the ridiculous double posts of mine, this fething phones playing up. :-)

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:Now, I would really like to express that I am NOT bagging religion. If you believe in God or any number of Gods, immortal beings, prophets or spiritual leaders, then I won't diss or otherwise act rudely towards you in anyway. Those are your beliefs, I just don't happen to share them. The following is just a true story that I and everyone else present at my local GW store found humourous.
A man in perhaps his forties walks into the store, he resembles your everyday John Smith. He asks around what the place is and what they sell. Upon having a quick tour and a few minutes watching a bitterly fought game between Empire and Dwarven troops, he seems impressed, stating that "This game seems to encourage creativity, strategic thinking and hand-eye coordination.
But, he then asks about the fluff and background of the game, ans upon hearing 'daemon', 'magic' and 'psychic power' he quite literally explodes in anger, yelling at everyone for endorsing witchcraft, demonology and that we are all being corrupted by the dark hand of the devil. He then storms out of the store muttering about how nothing is holy and how satan is corrupting the children.
Has anyone had a similar experience with a religious person they know? Or maybe you just have a comment.

Quite the opposite.

One of the regulars where I play/played was a Minister.

He played Necrons. With Church Lady Bonnets modeled on them.

He was totally well adjusted and had no issues with the game on the whole, because it's just a game.

So no, I've never experienced anything like that.

mattyrm wrote:Oh and i dont even dislike nids, them lads are just hungry. :-)


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sorry for the ridiculous double posts of mine, this fething phones playing up. :-)

You should get an iPad instead.

JEB_Stuart wrote:This thread has, like all threads on religion, devolved into stupidity. I mean, how can someone seriously claim that because one does play this game it is considered tacit approval to genocide, murder, etc., and in the same breath call them "ethical monsters" for ignoring the witchcraft or demonic element. Seriously dude, grow up and go paint some minis. Let people enjoy the hobby the way they see fit and shut up.

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Albatross wrote:

JEB wrote:This thread has, like all threads on religion, devolved into stupidity. I mean, how can someone seriously claim that because one does play this game it is considered tacit approval to genocide, murder, etc., and in the same breath call them "ethical monsters" for ignoring the witchcraft or demonic element. Seriously dude, grow up and go paint some minis. Let people enjoy the hobby the way they see fit and shut up.

Bit harsh, JEB. I think what he was driving at was that if you are uncomfortable with playing Daemons, why should you be any more comfortable playing Space Fascists *ahem* Marines?


p.s. Is Magic/witchcraft even mentioned in the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah? I was just wondering if it was explicitly forbidden in scripture or if it was just cultural thing.

No he's directly on point. Its nonsensical to equate playing toy soldiers/D&D etc. or aspects of it with anything else in real life. As noted, almost all threads even remotely citing a religious person devolve on this board into such inanity.


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bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Dronze wrote:I've got a few fundies in the family tree.... nothing more obnoxious than someone being so ignorant as to read the opening page of your 4th edition mini-rulebook (the Mcragge boxed set, clearly marked "Rule Book" in sizable letters on the cover) and then following up with a question as wantonly moronic as "So, do you believe all of this is real?" whilst you build plastic models.

I almost called a buddy of mine for an early ride home after that one. I don't tolerate willful ignorance too well.

My only other comment is that this woman also home-schools her kids. May their god have mercy on them, because reality certainly won't when their ignorance of things like actual science and how life in the real world works is revealed...

Yeah, for some reason very religious people have difficulties distinguishing a fictional book filled with gods, devils, heroes and monsters from reality.

I wonder why that might be.


A

Bercause dickheads who make fun of them abound on the internet?

Dronze, the point of the post was that christians do play various games. And that they deal with various parts in their own ways. That we are not all "Burn the witch" types. If you think her point of view in contradictory, that is your issue. She realizes it is a game. Has no problems if others play spell casters but feels that she should have no form of "dabbling" there for lack of a better term. And over the years has loosend up more and more.

Jeb, witchcraft is mentioned as previously posted and was followed by stoning.

I have worked with and had converstation with people that when the find out I play any sort of game get freeked out by it. Most of them having never read/played the game. They also get their information second, third, fourth hand. And are speaking from total ingorance.