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DeathReaper wrote:... ...Now we have an extra wound, what do the rules say to do with this extra wound?... ...

To which the Rules say: "For every unsaved wound caused with a blood talon in close combat, the Dreadnaught immediately makes another attack."

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

Dreadnought attacks a model with invulnerable saves. The model has 3 wounds, but fails 4 saves. How many unsaved wounds are there?

ID would usually take place (relax, i wont go into that)


If you failed 4 saves then thats 4 unsaved wounds. (hence the whole name of it "unsaved"?)
Nothing caps you with a limit of how many you can take at once.

Precisely, so the dreadnought gets 4 more attacks in CC.

Yes, they would kill him - and as he has lost ONE wound, you have thereby inflicted a total, of ONE unsaved wound. You have allocated a million wounds to him, but 999,999 have no effect, because wound number 1 killed the model.

For crying out loud, you cheesemongers are really begining to get on my nerves now. Say I allocate A MILLION wounds to a single guy. He suffers the first unsaved wound - ok, now he's dead - how can he continue to lose wounds when he has ZERO wounds remaining? The answer is that he cannot.

Ahh, the faint sounds of insults, the dying breath of a desperate man in need of something to grasp onto.


If you were to roll 1m dice 1 at a time i would more than likely slap you.
But in any case, you could take up to 1m unsaved wounds.

liam0404 wrote:Sorry, are you re-writing the rulebook now? How do you know what the "correct" parsing is? Don't presume to say that the GW guys got the wording wrong - even if they did, how can you say your interpretation is the correct one?

Here's that quote again-
"To decide who has won the combat, total up the number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side on their opponents. The side that caused the most is the winner."

Are you seriously trying to say that "the side that caused the most" is not referring directly to the preceding sentence, which tells you to count "the number of unsaved wounds inflicted by each side"?
That it refers to some other number?

DeathReaper wrote:"If the rules may or may not allow you to take a specific action that has an impact on the game, don't take it. "

You are taking a specific action- you are ignoring any unsaved wounds caused by failed armour saves in excess of the wounds in those model's unit.

liam0404 wrote:I have shown a valid, equivalent mechanic to back up my argument.

You haven't shown anything. Why not do what several other people have done in the thread, and go through the combat step by step, using references to the rules to indicate the number of hits, wounds, unsaved wounds, etc, and make it clear to the rest of us the ponit at which unsaved wounds are ignored, and why?

liam0404 wrote:Because in the other thread thats cropped up, this apparantly entitles a Dreadnought with Blood Talons to make 5 extra attacks, even if it killed something with only 1 wound. The "overkill" lets it attack 5 times, which surely is not correct since the model lost only one wound.

From the other thread. Once again, Blood Talons do not function based upon wounds lost. They do not work like that. The wargear text, again-
"For every unsaved wound caused with a blood talon in close combat, the Dreadnaught immediately makes another attack."
No reference to wounds lost.
No reference to wounds inflicted.
Only unsaved wounds caused, which are subsequently applied as casualties and inflicted for the prupose of combat resolution.

liam0404 wrote:Deathreaper (and earlier Nosferatu) were correct in their interpretation of the rule. I have shown a valid, equivalent mechanic to back up my argument. As I have said many times in this thread, i'd be supremely confident of a TO at a GT backing me on this. You'd be laughed out of the tournament/FLGS for pulling this sort of cheese, and rightfully so.

And I have shown in an also equivilant mechanic (overkill in fantasy) since your not using the part we are talking about and going on the "mechanics" how it does work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

liam0404 wrote:For crying out loud, you cheesemongers are really begining to get on my nerves now. Say I allocate A MILLION wounds to a single guy. He suffers the first unsaved wound - ok, now he's dead - how can he continue to lose wounds when he has ZERO wounds remaining? The answer is that he cannot.

You are being rude. And you don't roll saves one at a time, otherwise your point would be valid.

Also, seeing as I am more then likely to be on the receiving end of this blendernaught situation and I'm on the supporting side for it. I do not appreciate being called cheesemongerer.

karlosovic wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:... ...Now we have an extra wound, what do the rules say to do with this extra wound?... ...

To which the Rules say: "For every unsaved wound caused with a blood talon in close combat, the Dreadnaught immediately makes another attack."

Except that the rules do not say what to do with wounds over and above a models wounds.

you can not cause 3 wounds to a 1 wound model. you can only cause one wound then it dies.

How many wounds can you cause to a one wound model before it dies? Only one, since the rules do not tell us what to do with the overage we cant do anything with them. (though it mentions the excess is ignored for combat resolution, so it should work the same here. Just like the shooting at vehicles section doesn't tell you how to roll to hit but we already know how to roll to hit.)

DeathReaper wrote:If is ambiguous you should take the less advantageous position.

You guys keep sprouting this line like your implied piety lends weight to your false logic. It doesn't even make sense, though. "Less advantageous position" for whom? You're a Blood Angel player and I'm a Space Wolf player - if we were to both take the "less advantageous position" (which in fact, is what most people in this thread seems to be doing) we'd be in the same position in which we are currently.
In reality, it's just a cop-out argument; "Just let me win, because it's the right thing to do".

pff

Except that the rules do not say what to do with wounds over and above a models wounds.

you can not cause 3 wounds to a 1 wound model. you can only cause one wound then it dies.

The rules also dont say that excess wounds are ignored and have no purpose.
They are still unsaved wounds, doesent matter how you spin it, they are unsaved wounds. (since it was a wound you failed to save .... clever naming isnt it?)

Can you please point out a page number and the header for the rule showing that please?

This isnt real life, so for all intensive purposes, logic does not come into it.
You roll all of the dice at once.


Edit:

though it mentions the excess is ignored for combat resolution, so it should work the same here.

This isnt combat res, so it doesent work the same, so the rule cannot be applied here.

DeathReaper wrote:

karlosovic wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:... ...Now we have an extra wound, what do the rules say to do with this extra wound?... ...

To which the Rules say: "For every unsaved wound caused with a blood talon in close combat, the Dreadnaught immediately makes another attack."

Except that the rules do not say what to do with wounds over and above a models wounds.

you can not cause 3 wounds to a 1 wound model. you can only cause one wound then it dies.

How many wounds can you cause to a one wound model before it dies? Only one, since the rules do not tell us what to do with the overage we cant do anything with them. (though it mentions the excess is ignored for combat resolution, so it should work the same here. Just like the shooting at vehicles section doesn't tell you how to roll to hit but we already know how to roll to hit.)

For the first part, it does. when it fails its save it dies. However as multiple dice can be rolled for the save at the same time(as it should be) it can suffer multiple wounds before going to the remove casualty part.

Second part. Again yes you can, because as has been stated, you do not roll the saves one at a time, you roll them together, meaning it can be.

Third part, only one wound need be suffered before it is removed as a casualty, so if you fire one shot at a one wound target and you wound it and it fails its save then it dies and is removed. If you fire multiple shots at the 1 wound model then it can suffer multiple wounds before dying but its overkill as one is needed to have it removed from the game.

Combat resolution is different then wounding/saving/removing casualty process if it wasn't then it would simply state see wounding process for number of resolutions. It doesn't, it has its own section so its different. The wounding process for cc says refer to the shooting process for wounding/saving/casualty.

..

karlosovic wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If is ambiguous you should take the less advantageous position.

You guys keep sprouting this line like your implied piety lends weight to your false logic. It doesn't even make sense, though. "Less advantageous position" for whom? You're a Blood Angel player and I'm a Space Wolf player - if we were to both take the "less advantageous position" (which in fact, is what most people in this thread seems to be doing) we'd be in the same position in which we are currently.
In reality, it's just a cop-out argument; "Just let me win, because it's the right thing to do".

pff

The line is from the link, have a read.

Have a look at http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate

"if the rules may or may not allow you to take a specific action that has an impact on the game, don't take it. "

If we might be able to get five attacks, or might not be able to, do not take the five attacks.

DeathReaper wrote:

karlosovic wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:... ...Now we have an extra wound, what do the rules say to do with this extra wound?... ...

To which the Rules say: "For every unsaved wound caused with a blood talon in close combat, the Dreadnaught immediately makes another attack."

Except that the rules do not say what to do with wounds over and above a models wounds.

NO ONE BLOODY ASKED WHAT TO DO WITH WOUNDS OVER AND ABOVE A MODELS WOUNDS CHARACTERISTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DeathReaper wrote:you can not cause 3 wounds to a 1 wound model. you can only cause one wound then it dies.

Show me the rule. Show me where it says this!

DeathReaper wrote:How many wounds can you cause to a one wound model before it dies?

How much wood would a Wood-Chuck chuck if a Wood-Chuck could chuck wood?
How long is a piece of string?
Who cares?!
You're confusing
"how many wounds can you cause"
with
"how many wounds must you cause [before it dies]"

The number you can cause it limited by the attributes of the attacking model.
The number you must cause it limited by the attributes of the model attacked.

Once again, no where in the blood angel rule does it reference the relative longevity of the victims. It more a question of how powerful and frenzied your crazy vampiric robot is.

DeathReaper wrote:Only one, since the rules do not tell us what to do with the overage we cant do anything with them. (though it mentions the excess is ignored for combat resolution, so it should work the same here. Just like the shooting at vehicles section doesn't tell you how to roll to hit but we already know how to roll to hit.)

The shooting at vehicles section says "Roll to hit as normal". The blood talons rule does NOT say "modify the number of unsaved wounds according to the rules limiting Determine Assault Results".
And I already told you what the rules say about the excess wounds caused.

Karl, dont waste your breath mate, he will simply ignore any post that forces him to find a non existant rule.
Kinda like my last post.

karlosovic wrote:chuck wood?
How long is a piece of string?
Who cares?!
You're confusing
"how many wounds can you cause"
with
"how many wounds must you cause [before it dies]"

The number you can cause it limited by the attributes of the attacking model.
The number you must cause it limited by the attributes of the model attacked.

Once again, no where in the blood angel rule does it reference the relative longevity of the victims. It more a question of how powerful and frenzied your crazy vampiric robot is.

DeathReaper wrote:Only one, since the rules do not tell us what to do with the overage we cant do anything with them. (though it mentions the excess is ignored for combat resolution, so it should work the same here. Just like the shooting at vehicles section doesn't tell you how to roll to hit but we already know how to roll to hit.)

The shooting at vehicles section says "Roll to hit as normal". The blood talons rule does NOT say "modify the number of unsaved wounds according to the rules limiting Determine Assault Results".
And I already told you what the rules say about the excess wounds caused.

I love you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OOh ooh, ask him the one about FNP..

DeathReaper wrote:The line is from the link, have a read.

Have a look at http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate

How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate wrote:Written by Centurian99

=not a GW rule

Lets get one thing clear - it's perfectly acceptable to examine similar processes in the rulebook for using mechanics - the assault phase section even discusses how to use the shooting wound chart! It's clear such things are comparable, such as combat resolution.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

Except that the rules do not say what to do with wounds over and above a models wounds.

you can not cause 3 wounds to a 1 wound model. you can only cause one wound then it dies.

The rules also dont say that excess wounds are ignored and have no purpose.
They are still unsaved wounds, doesent matter how you spin it, they are unsaved wounds. (since it was a wound you failed to save .... clever naming isnt it?)

Can you please point out a page number and the header for the rule showing that please?

This isnt real life, so for all intensive purposes, logic does not come into it.
You roll all of the dice at once.


Edit:

though it mentions the excess is ignored for combat resolution, so it should work the same here.

This isnt combat res, so it doesent work the same, so the rule cannot be applied here.

Therefore, the mechanics for determining wounds and the total inflicted is regulated by the same process as combat resolution.

Lets get one thing clear - it's perfectly acceptable to examine similar processes in the rulebook for using mechanics - the assault phase section even discusses how to use the shooting wound chart! It's clear such things are comparable, such as combat resolution.

Anyone got a large "Wrong!" stamp please?

That would be because it tells you to use the rules from another rule.
You dont just pick a rule and mesh it in with one you want.

doesent matter how similar a rule is to another one, they are seperate.
Details and sequences dont carry from 1 rule to another unless mentioned, like you said to start with.

Lets get one thing clear - it's perfectly acceptable to examine similar processes in the rulebook for using mechanics - the assault phase section even discusses how to use the shooting wound chart! It's clear such things are comparable, such as combat resolution.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

Except that the rules do not say what to do with wounds over and above a models wounds.

you can not cause 3 wounds to a 1 wound model. you can only cause one wound then it dies.



The rules also dont say that excess wounds are ignored and have no purpose.
They are still unsaved wounds, doesent matter how you spin it, they are unsaved wounds. (since it was a wound you failed to save .... clever naming isnt it?)

Can you please point out a page number and the header for the rule showing that please?

This isnt real life, so for all intensive purposes, logic does not come into it.
You roll all of the dice at once.


Edit:

though it mentions the excess is ignored for combat resolution, so it should work the same here.



This isnt combat res, so it doesent work the same, so the rule cannot be applied here.



Therefore, the mechanics for determining wounds and the total inflicted is regulated by the same process as combat resolution.

again, your mixing 2 rules without the book telling you to.
However, a page number would help on that one please, as i cant seem to see where unsaved wounds point me towards combat res.

liam0404 wrote:A Lie

I'm not bothering to answer this properly AGAIN! as it has already been pointed out to be wrong many times over.
Instead I shall set in stone the opinion I have formed of you

liam0404 wrote:Lets get one thing clear - it's perfectly acceptable to examine similar processes in the rulebook for using mechanics - the assault phase section even discusses how to use the shooting wound chart! It's clear such things are comparable, such as combat resolution.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

Except that the rules do not say what to do with wounds over and above a models wounds.

you can not cause 3 wounds to a 1 wound model. you can only cause one wound then it dies.

The rules also dont say that excess wounds are ignored and have no purpose.
They are still unsaved wounds, doesent matter how you spin it, they are unsaved wounds. (since it was a wound you failed to save .... clever naming isnt it?)

Can you please point out a page number and the header for the rule showing that please?

This isnt real life, so for all intensive purposes, logic does not come into it.
You roll all of the dice at once.


Edit:

though it mentions the excess is ignored for combat resolution, so it should work the same here.

This isnt combat res, so it doesent work the same, so the rule cannot be applied here.

Therefore, the mechanics for determining wounds and the total inflicted is regulated by the same process as combat resolution.

Since everyone on your side fails to quote a rule, here's one for you. P. 26, multiple wound models: "When such a multiple-wound model suffers an unsaved wound, it loses one Wound from its profile. Once the model has lost all of its Wounds, it is removed as a casualty..." Where does this sentence limit the number of unsaved wounds that can be inflicted? The only thing it says is that the model is lost if the number of wounds inflicted reduces it's wounds attribute to 0. Which logically means unsaved wounds must be >= the wounds attribute to kill a model.

Edit: The point being that losing a wound =/= suffering an unsaved wound. They are two separate actions, but one triggers the other. Not only that, but you can suffer 1Million unsaved wounds, and still be killed. RAW the model would be at -999,999 W.

To quote my post in the other thread....

page 24 of the BRB

"Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."

So by your interpretation of the rule, you if you have more unsaved wounds than models /wounds available, you are violating this - if you have excess wounds, (according to your logic), you MUST remove one model for each wound.

Well go on then, start plucking models out of thin air.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:

Except that the rules do not say what to do with wounds over and above a models wounds.

you can not cause 3 wounds to a 1 wound model. you can only cause one wound then it dies.

The rules also dont say that excess wounds are ignored and have no purpose.
They are still unsaved wounds, doesent matter how you spin it, they are unsaved wounds. (since it was a wound you failed to save .... clever naming isnt it?)

Can you please point out a page number and the header for the rule showing that please?

This isnt real life, so for all intensive purposes, logic does not come into it.
You roll all of the dice at once.


Edit:

though it mentions the excess is ignored for combat resolution, so it should work the same here.

This isnt combat res, so it doesent work the same, so the rule cannot be applied here.

By the logic 'This isnt combat res, so it doesent work the same' then vehicles can never take cover saves.
Rules listed in different sections have an effect on other sections.

P.39 tells us how to handle wounds that are in excess of a models characteristic.

wounds that are in excess of a models characteristic do not count for combat resolution, This is how you handle wounds in an assault.

karlosovic wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The line is from the link, have a read.

Have a look at http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/How_to_Have_an_Intelligent_Rules_Debate

How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate wrote:Written by Centurian99

=not a GW rule

Right it is from this post:

yakface wrote:Looking to read well thought out treatises dissecting tough rules issues about the game of Warhammer 40,000?


Well, look no further than Dakka's 40K rules discussion articles, including:

How to Have an Intelligent Rules Debate by Centurian99

YMTC - How YOU Play the Game of 40k, a series of polls dedicated to finding out how players actually *play* some of the trickier situations in the 40k rules.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209921.page

Have a look, the mods on this board Approve!

We know it gets removed from the table, that is pretty clear by now liam.


so can you quote me a page or a rule that tells you unsaved wounds are ignored if over the models wounds?
As far as i was aware, they have been rolled for and caused, they dont vanish.

liam0404 wrote:To quote my post in the other thread....

page 24 of the BRB

"Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."

So by your interpretation of the rule, you if you have more unsaved wounds than models /wounds available, you are violating this - if you have excess wounds, (according to your logic), you MUST remove one model for each wound.

Well go on then, start plucking models out of thin air.

Where does it say that the unsaved wounds are capped at the number of models in a squad? Obviously, if there are more wounds than models, all of the models are removed. However, there were still MORE unsaved wounds than models.

Of course they vanish - otherwise the gane breaks. In my above quote, you are told to remove ONE model for EACH unsaved wound. When you have a hatful of wounds left over, what do you do with them? Do you just wait for time to expire?

Of course not, you say "ok, these were excess, no one can take these wounds, lets move on to something else."

Or at least we do in a sane gaming environment, im not sure what many of you are doing.

liam0404 wrote:Of course they vanish - otherwise the gane breaks. In my above quote, you are told to remove ONE model for EACH unsaved wound. When you have a hatful of wounds left over, what do you do with them? Do you just wait for time to expire?

Of course not, you say "ok, these were excess, no one can take these wounds, lets move on to something else."

Or at least we do in a sane gaming environment, im not sure what many of you are doing.

Yes, that's exactly what happens. The wounds are an excess, but they are never-the-less unsaved wounds.

No they are not - the excess wounds arwe wounds which WOULD be unsaved if there were models surviving to suffer those wounds.

liam0404 wrote:No they are not - the excess wounds arwe wounds which WOULD be unsaved if there were models surviving to suffer those wounds.

What is an unsaved wound?

Its a wound which is caused by failing an armour save, and then suffered by the model to whuch the wound was allocated. If its dead it doesnt matter how many wounds were allocated!

Of course they vanish - otherwise the gane breaks. In my above quote, you are told to remove ONE model for EACH unsaved wound. When you have a hatful of wounds left over, what do you do with them? Do you just wait for time to expire?

But you roll all the dice at once, not 1 at a time.
The odds of overkilling a unit are pretty high and happen very often.

Please refer me to a page where it tells me to removed any excess dice.

No, they are simply unsaved wounds that once the combat is over will have no use.

Basing your entire logic on this rule from the combat res rules holds no weight as they dont apply.

The game only breaks when a point is reached in which nothing can be done, this is not the case here.

No they are not - the excess wounds arwe wounds which WOULD be unsaved if there were models surviving to suffer those wounds.

You have a chance to save against them, which would be a valid save.
Once you fail that save, they are still a valid unsaved wound.
It works both ways liam.

liam0404 wrote:Its a wound which is caused by failing an armour save, and then suffered by the model to whuch the wound was allocated. If its dead it doesnt matter how many wounds were allocated!

Oh, you almost had it.

Unfortunately you added more words than the rules state: P24, "For every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound. Of course this also includes wounds against which no save can be attempted..." Notice the first sentence. It ends in a period, meaning it's a complete sentence. The paragraph goes on to say, "... for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed ... as a casualty." Where does it say you ignore the other unsaved wounds? This is merely the action you take when you suffer an unsaved wound, not a requirement for the wound to be unsaved.