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ShumaGorath wrote:

halonachos wrote:It has something to do with a certain user who is no longer with us saying 'Blame the victim' repeatedly several times with some other very colorful language.

Must of missed that one. Anyone I didn't like?

I think there's a decent probability that most people would fit that description...

dogma wrote:
Tupac (overrated as he is),

That's only because he is dead. Dead musicians are always "overrated".

Anyway, I think there is still some good rap, but a lot of the people you think of as rap, really aren't. As Karon said in another thread, they are more pop.

http://www.cracked.com/article_15856_the-7-most-unforgivable-grammy-award-snubs-all-time.html

More Cracked examples of popular =/= good.

Popularity doesn't always equate with quality, but Thriller is the best-selling album of all time and if you don't think that is quality...

Well, I better not say.

Mike Noble wrote:Anyway, I think there is still some good rap, but a lot of the people you think of as rap, really aren't. As Karon said in another thread, they are more pop.

DMX = Pop.

Fat Boyz = Rap.

Learn the difference kids.

biccat wrote:

Mike Noble wrote:Anyway, I think there is still some good rap, but a lot of the people you think of as rap, really aren't. As Karon said in another thread, they are more pop.

DMX = Pop.

Fat Boyz = Rap.

Learn the difference kids.

Where does Kris Kross fit into this?

Monster Rain wrote:

biccat wrote:

Mike Noble wrote:Anyway, I think there is still some good rap, but a lot of the people you think of as rap, really aren't. As Karon said in another thread, they are more pop.

DMX = Pop.

Fat Boyz = Rap.

Learn the difference kids.

Where does Kris Kross fit into this?

Gangsta rap, along with Another Bad Creation.

I would put DMX on their level, yes. DMX is one of the most underrated artists I have seen, along with Rakim.

Yeah, I think I've made my point here. I might not seem to know anything on here, but I sure as hell know my Hip-Hop more than anything.

Tupac is indeed overrated, while B.I.G is underrated. It happens when people who don't know what they're talking about, talk about them. The two of them are still the best, and which one is #1 is a matter of opinion, I prefer B.I.G.

NSFW, Language, its Hip-Hop

Karon wrote:I would put DMX on their level, yes. DMX is one of the most underrated artists I have seen, along with Rakim.

Yeah, I think I've made my point here. I might not seem to know anything on here, but I sure as hell know my Hip-Hop more than anything.

Sorry man but your argument boils down to the "kids these days" with a side helping of nostalgia, your parents probably complained about how kids these days listen to DMX and not whatever they used to listen to.

corpsesarefun wrote:

Karon wrote:I would put DMX on their level, yes. DMX is one of the most underrated artists I have seen, along with Rakim.

Yeah, I think I've made my point here. I might not seem to know anything on here, but I sure as hell know my Hip-Hop more than anything.

Sorry man but your argument boils down to the "kids these days" with a side helping of nostalgia, your parents probably complained about how kids these days listen to DMX and not whatever they used to listen to.

What is my argument? Kids DON'T listen to DMX these days. I wouldn't complain if my kids were listening to that, I'd be proud as hell.

Most kids today listen to bs pop music that means nothing at all. They wrongly label it as Hip-Hop and Rap. Lil Wayne, Gucci Mane, Drake, all are pop artists, that gak they make isn't Hip-Hop.

corpsesarefun wrote:

Karon wrote:I would put DMX on their level, yes. DMX is one of the most underrated artists I have seen, along with Rakim.

Yeah, I think I've made my point here. I might not seem to know anything on here, but I sure as hell know my Hip-Hop more than anything.

Sorry man but your argument boils down to the "kids these days" with a side helping of nostalgia, your parents probably complained about how kids these days listen to DMX and not whatever they used to listen to.

I belive (though of course I may be wrong),that Karon was attempting to comment on the idea that Hip-Hop has become "Watered down and co-opted" over the decades..which I can partly agree with.but of course...this happens with all forms of "rebelious" music once it begins to gain some commercial success ...(see Hippy.Punk,Metal for details .. )....

....I however have to admit that I'm not seeing where it pertains to the topic though.

Karon wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

Karon wrote:I would put DMX on their level, yes. DMX is one of the most underrated artists I have seen, along with Rakim.

Yeah, I think I've made my point here. I might not seem to know anything on here, but I sure as hell know my Hip-Hop more than anything.

Sorry man but your argument boils down to the "kids these days" with a side helping of nostalgia, your parents probably complained about how kids these days listen to DMX and not whatever they used to listen to.

What is my argument? Kids DON'T listen to DMX these days. I wouldn't complain if my kids were listening to that, I'd be proud as hell.

Most kids today listen to bs pop music that means nothing at all. They wrongly label it as Hip-Hop and Rap. Lil Wayne, Gucci Mane, Drake, all are pop artists, that gak they make isn't Hip-Hop.

That is the point.

Your parents probably complained about DMX just as you complain about what kids listen to now.
I'm not defending hip-pop (however Lil wayne did feature on no love with eminem which wasn't bad at all), I'm just saying that there will always be music that the previous generation doesn't like.

Karon wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

Karon wrote:I would put DMX on their level, yes. DMX is one of the most underrated artists I have seen, along with Rakim.

Yeah, I think I've made my point here. I might not seem to know anything on here, but I sure as hell know my Hip-Hop more than anything.

Sorry man but your argument boils down to the "kids these days" with a side helping of nostalgia, your parents probably complained about how kids these days listen to DMX and not whatever they used to listen to.

What is my argument? Kids DON'T listen to DMX these days. I wouldn't complain if my kids were listening to that, I'd be proud as hell.

Most kids today listen to bs pop music that means nothing at all. They wrongly label it as Hip-Hop and Rap. Lil Wayne, Gucci Mane, Drake, all are pop artists, that gak they make isn't Hip-Hop.

Thats all pretty "get off my lawn". I grew up in the 80's and 90's and I didn't listen to that stuff. I still don't. Most of it's awful from an objective lyrical and musical standpoint. DMX has aged about as well as a tumor to me and in general the 90's were pretty weak musically. Eminem proved the best rapper alive didn't have to rap about himself (constantly), Radiohead released OK computer and the grunge movement came and went. Little is still hugely relevant. You should probably not fault a generation of people for not enjoying your subjective music tastes, especially when they weren't dominant in their prime.

Exactly Fitzz, watered down is the word. Its no longer Hip Hop.

Not just DMX, they hated the whole "East Coast West Coast Feud" in general. But that goes back to me growing up, and they had reason to not like that culture.

Don't get me on started with the new Eminem, but you're right.

As Fitzz said, I am angry that this new music is recognized as Rap and Hip-Hop. Its not a new genre of music, people have the nerve to say these new rappers are anywhere near the legends.

Lil Wayne the best rapper alive...last I checked, Ice Cube, Nas, DMX, etc etc, are still alive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Karon wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

Karon wrote:I would put DMX on their level, yes. DMX is one of the most underrated artists I have seen, along with Rakim.

Yeah, I think I've made my point here. I might not seem to know anything on here, but I sure as hell know my Hip-Hop more than anything.

Sorry man but your argument boils down to the "kids these days" with a side helping of nostalgia, your parents probably complained about how kids these days listen to DMX and not whatever they used to listen to.

What is my argument? Kids DON'T listen to DMX these days. I wouldn't complain if my kids were listening to that, I'd be proud as hell.

Most kids today listen to bs pop music that means nothing at all. They wrongly label it as Hip-Hop and Rap. Lil Wayne, Gucci Mane, Drake, all are pop artists, that gak they make isn't Hip-Hop.

Thats all pretty "get off my lawn". I grew up in the 80's and 90's and I didn't listen to that stuff. I still don't. Most of it's awful from an objective lyrical and musical standpoint. DMX has aged about as well as a tumor to me. You should probably not fault a generation of people for not enjoying your subjective music tastes, especially when they weren't dominant in their prime.

You don't know what you're talking about. Hip-Hop goes much deeper than diss tracks against each other. For example.......

NSFW, Swears, etc

Exactly Fitzz, watered down is the word. Its no longer Hip Hop.

I think thats what NWA and public enemy said about the 90's. Hip Hop is a pretty broad and ill defined category of music.

As Fitzz said, I am angry that this new music is recognized as Rap and Hip-Hop. Its not a new genre of music, people have the nerve to say these new rappers are anywhere near the legends.

People say that about the pokemon from the new pokemon game too.

Lil Wayne the best rapper alive...last I checked, Ice Cube, Nas, DMX, etc etc, are still alive.

Yep.

You don't know what you're talking about. Hip-Hop goes much deeper than diss tracks against each other. For example.......

Providing an exception to argue against scale isn't really a functional rebuttal. I didn't say all. I said "most", and if you grab any random wu tang, tupac, biggie, DMX, NWA, Public enemy, etc song you're likely to find self aggrandizement and lyrical laziness overlaying the incredibly weak musicality that runs through ought the genre. Rap is a musical form that stresses image and setting, not one that relies on the laurels of skilfull prose or virtuosic musical skill. The best rapper in the biz, del the funkee homosapian didn't even get big until he hitched onto the gorillaz in 2001, which alone throws out your decadism.

If you're going to make silly comparisons like that, and tell me Ice Cube isn't a legend in Hip-Hop because he did some movies where he didn't murder people or deal drugs, then I can't argue with you.

Karon wrote:If you're going to make silly comparisons like that, and tell me Ice Cube isn't a legend in Hip-Hop because he did some movies where he didn't murder people or deal drugs, then I can't argue with you.

And if you're going to tell me that he's one of the best rappers alive when he hasn't contributed significantly to the genre in 18 years then you're not worth arguing with.

N.W.A and Public Enemy did have a point in commenting that Hip-hop/rap was being co-opted in the 90's...it was,but as I said that's to be expected with any music genre that gains any sort of commercial recognition...themes will shift from commenting on "urban blight" to singing about shoes/cars etc...broaden the market for the product.

...As for Ice Cubes foray into Disney Films...not surprising,Johnny Rotten is pedaling Butter and Iggy Pop is doing car insurance adds..."Icons" seldome live up to their own image...safe bet that if Tupac or Biggie were alive todaythey'd be doing Potato chip comercials or guest staring on Family Guy.

Lord Scythican wrote:
So they are doing better on a few things. What about all the stuff they are doing bad? Depression and suicide may have been greater in my day, but we didn't backtalk our mothers.

You have strange priorities.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Karon wrote:If you're going to make silly comparisons like that, and tell me Ice Cube isn't a legend in Hip-Hop because he did some movies where he didn't murder people or deal drugs, then I can't argue with you.

And if you're going to tell me that he's one of the best rappers alive when he hasn't contributed significantly to the genre in 18 years then you're not worth arguing with.

Say what? Say what?

1990: AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted
1991: Death Certificate
1992: The Predator
1993: Lethal Injection
1998: War & Peace Vol. 1 (The War Disc)
2000: War & Peace Vol. 2 (The Peace Disc)
2006: Laugh Now, Cry Later
2008: Raw Footage
2010: I Am the West

Thats just copy and pasted off of wikipedia. How do you want him to...contribute? You want him to solely make a living on rap? That isn't that easy. Let me quote Redman on why it took 10 years for Blackout! 2

I had obligations. Doc had obligations. There were things going on with the label. Staff changes. That's what happened." Giving his take on the delay, Redman stated: "We was out venturing, starting other careers," Red said. "We can't just depend on this rap game. We did a movie, TV show — venturing out. Now we back. We ain't left. We're coming at the right time.

Can you elaborate on how he didn't contribute?

And yeah, Fitzz is correct. Hell, Biggie made "Juicy" explicitly to get noticed. It was for radio play, it wasn't hard, it was just a fun track. They want money in the easiest way possible, I'd do a few kiddy movies myself if it was paying out well. You think I would even take someone seriously for telling me after more than 10 years of rapping some of the hardest tracks there ever will be, that I am no longer supposed to be relevant? Ridiculous.

Say what? Say what?

1990: AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted
1991: Death Certificate
1992: The Predator
1993: Lethal Injection

18 years precludes these. It's 2011.

1998: War & Peace Vol. 1 (The War Disc)
2000: War & Peace Vol. 2 (The Peace Disc)
2006: Laugh Now, Cry Later
2008: Raw Footage
2010: I Am the West

Thats just copy and pasted off of wikipedia. How do you want him to...contribute? You want him to solely make a living on rap? That isn't that easy. Let me quote Redman on why it took 10 years for Blackout! 2

Apparently its easier to make an exceptionally good living on movies? After 1993 his contributions to the genre stopped being particularly important one way or another. He has about the rapping credibility and skill of will smith now.

Can you elaborate on how he didn't contribute?

His releases were infrequent and bad after 2003?

You think I would even take someone seriously for telling me after more than 10 years of rapping some of the hardest tracks there ever will be, that I am no longer supposed to be relevant? Ridiculous.

Hard as in difficult? Not sure when he managed to belt out anything that could be considered lyrically in the league of "hardest tracks there will ever be". Then again, there is typically little arguing with a fanboy on subjective matters. Exceptionally technically difficult rap didn't become a thing until later in the genres development when it became less about promoting the sound and more about differentiating yourself from the field. About the time Ice Cube abandoned it all.

Karon, are you just talking about hip hop? Because earlier on I took you to mean music in general was worse now than it was a decade ago, which I think is simply wrong.

But if it's just hip hop then honestly I don't know enough to know if you're right or wrong, hip hop now may be much worse. That's certainly happened to musical styles before, they lose whatever made them relevant and they get bloated and self referential. It happened to punk, it happened to hair metal, I'd have no problem believing it may well have happened to hip hop as well.

So if you're just saying that one genre of music isn't as good as it was, it's cool.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Karon wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

Karon wrote:I would put DMX on their level, yes. DMX is one of the most underrated artists I have seen, along with Rakim.

Yeah, I think I've made my point here. I might not seem to know anything on here, but I sure as hell know my Hip-Hop more than anything.

Sorry man but your argument boils down to the "kids these days" with a side helping of nostalgia, your parents probably complained about how kids these days listen to DMX and not whatever they used to listen to.

What is my argument? Kids DON'T listen to DMX these days. I wouldn't complain if my kids were listening to that, I'd be proud as hell.

Most kids today listen to bs pop music that means nothing at all. They wrongly label it as Hip-Hop and Rap. Lil Wayne, Gucci Mane, Drake, all are pop artists, that gak they make isn't Hip-Hop.

Thats all pretty "get off my lawn". I grew up in the 80's and 90's and I didn't listen to that stuff. I still don't. Most of it's awful from an objective lyrical and musical standpoint. DMX has aged about as well as a tumor to me and in general the 90's were pretty weak musically. Eminem proved the best rapper alive didn't have to rap about himself (constantly), Radiohead released OK computer and the grunge movement came and went. Little is still hugely relevant. You should probably not fault a generation of people for not enjoying your subjective music tastes, especially when they weren't dominant in their prime.

Well, to be fair your argument that the 90s were a weak decade for music is subjective - as with many such statements, it's dependent on perspective. The 90s was a great period for music in the UK - in the US, perhaps not so much. Grunge aside, of course. It was awesome being a teenager in the mid-to-late 90s in Britain. There was a LOT of stuff happening on the music front.

@Karon - Are you familiar with Grime?

The 90s were pretty good in the US as well.

Antichrist Superstar and The Downward Spiral alone make my point, but the list is far too long for my inebriated self to make an exhaustive account.

Suffice to say, if there has been an album of the caliber of either of those I previously mentioned in the last 10 years please direct me to it.

Monster Rain wrote:The 90s were pretty good in the US as well.

Antichrist Superstar and The Downward Spiral alone make my point, but the list is far too long for my inebriated self to make an exhaustive account.

Suffice to say, if there has been an album of the caliber of either of those I previously mentioned in the last 10 years please direct me to it.

As has been a running theme here, the subjective nature of such statements is a bit unfortunate. I'm of the opinion that Manson was hugely overated and he doesn't get much play these days. Who knows, maybe Antichrist will start making classic lists a lot in a few years.

The Gorillaz self titled debut album came out in the 00's. The mars volta has done all of its stuff in that decade as well. Tool did its best work in the 00's, and A Perfect Circle splashed and went in that timeframe as well. System of a Down released Toxicity in 2001, which remains one of the best rated metal albums of that decade and easily eclipses most of the efforts in that space in the 90s.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Tool did its best work in the 00's, and A Perfect Circle splashed and went in that timeframe as well. System of a Down released Toxicity in 2001, which remains one of the best rated metal albums of that decade and easily eclipses most of the efforts in that space in the 90s.

Although, I feel that I should point out, that Tool's more "popular" choice among some fans, is AEnima, which came out in 96. I say it's more popular, because when Lateralus came out, most of my friends who were also Tool fans, told me that they hated it, and still preferred AEnima, and to an extent, Undertow.

Aenima just shades it for me, though Lateralus is also a very, very good record.

Monster Rain wrote:
Antichrist Superstar and The Downward Spiral alone make my point, but the list is far too long for my inebriated self to make an exhaustive account.

Suffice to say, if there has been an album of the caliber of either of those I previously mentioned in the last 10 years please direct me to it.

I prefer Back To Black by Amy Winehouse and Is This It by The Strokes more than either of those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and Shuma, you have a serious thing for Gorillaz, don't you? I find that odd.

So what people are really saying is "My generation is great. The generation younger than mine are a bunch of slackers who have no manners, listen to bad music, and show the decline of society." I remember hearing people say and seeing people write this in the 2000s, 1990s, and 1980s, and from looking at old movies, TV shows, magazines, and newspapers have seen it back to around the 1940s at least. The idea that the damn kids today are no good is not exactly a new one.

ShumaGorath wrote:The Gorillaz self titled debut album came out in the 00's. The mars volta has done all of its stuff in that decade as well. Tool did its best work in the 00's, and A Perfect Circle splashed and went in that timeframe as well. System of a Down released Toxicity in 2001, which remains one of the best rated metal albums of that decade and easily eclipses most of the efforts in that space in the 90s.

Yeah, Gorillaz is pretty awesome. Disagree about Tool's best work being in the 2000s, but I see your point.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:So what people are really saying is "My generation is great. The generation younger than mine are a bunch of slackers who have no manners, listen to bad music, and show the decline of society."

That's not what I'm saying.

Albatross wrote:Aenima just shades it for me, though Lateralus is also a very, very good record.

Monster Rain wrote:
Antichrist Superstar and The Downward Spiral alone make my point, but the list is far too long for my inebriated self to make an exhaustive account.

Suffice to say, if there has been an album of the caliber of either of those I previously mentioned in the last 10 years please direct me to it.

I prefer Back To Black by Amy Winehouse and Is This It by The Strokes more than either of those.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...and Shuma, you have a serious thing for Gorillaz, don't you? I find that odd.

I'm a fan, they're one of about five bands that I listen to regularly and track their releases. They come up in conversation a lot primarily because they're a good counter to the idea that rap is stagnant/violent/getting worse/was better when tupac was around. They aren't my favorite band but they're close.

Fair enough, I just don't see them as a 'top 5 favourite artists' band... not sure why. I suppose I can put it down to fact that I can't get away from my perception of them as a Damon Albarn side-project, and not a band 'proper', if you will.

But anyway, we've been down this road before - no good can come of it!

What, in your opinion, makes Del a better rapper than say, a Pharoah Monche or Mos Def? Just out of interest?