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cincydooley wrote:The price, I would argue, is worse because it is "allowed in regular play". It's going to prove to price some folks out of being able to use it, and if the rules are good, isn't that exactly the type of situation they want to avoid?

I second Baker of Fish. If they are indeed 20 points, they are pretty much unplayable in 35 point games, ergo, they pose no barrier to entry. Combos that wreck heavy jacks with attacks to spare will buzzsaw through these like a knife through butter. We're talking commonly seen units that cost 1/2 the cost of a Colossal. IMHO, they are more of an army centerpiece, for huge games and/or special scenario events that a store might want to run.

If anything, Colossals are the same as Superheavies in 40k. I bought a Shadowsword because it looks cool. I'll buy a Conquest because it looks cool. I only used the Shadowsword ONCE, as it can only be used in APOCALYPSE games. Nobody I know runs apoc games because they need to be tightly organized. If they are poorly organized, they take forever to play, and usually, one side with the stompiest toys tables the other side, meaning 1/2 the players had fun, and the other half that got their armies removed by a hail of strength D templates gets kind of turned off the format. Being able to use the Conquest in a normal game - handicapping myself, is a happy bonus.

As for all the comparisons between GW and PP... c'mon guys, this is inevitable (if lamentable), considering that they are #1 and #2 in the market respectively. What the hell else are you going to compare new releases to? Mantic? Dark Age? Infinity? Malifaux? GW is at the top of the heap, so clearly, they are the bar by which this hobby is measured. GW management doesn't care what the naysayers say, so I don't see why this company demands such vigorous (often highly subjective and sometimes infantile) defense, especially in a thread for a competitor's product. Regarding the original offending post... all it takes is a reasoned post with price backup to debunk.

I think that PP's meteoric rise is finished. By in large, all original factions have enough models to satisfy almost every play style. While on the whole, their entire range has improved since the launch days, IMHO, a number of the new sculpts are clearly inferior to the originals - these include most of the plastic warjacks, the plastic man-o-wars, the new arcane tempest gunmages and the new plastic Stryker. If PP has not peaked, I think that they will peak soon. If they're smart, they'll hold the line and continue to put out new scenarios, mercenaries and warcasters to encourage new ways of play while churning out the odd new item and/or errata. Hopefully, they realize that while veterans will not buy models in huge quantities for their CURRENT army, if they like the system and play long enough, there's a decent chance they'll end up buying most of the ENTIRE RANGE, thus equaling a huge win for PP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On an aside, does anyone know the dimensions of a GW large oval base?

My friend made a good point about these- that he actually minds the cost less than a battle engine, because it's actually better for cost-to-points ratio.

Battle Engine: 9 points, $90 (i.e., $10 per 1 point)
Colossal: 18-20 points, $135 (i.e., $6.75 to $7.50 per 1 point)

I also think they'll be Crazy impressive on the tabletop, and so it'll be worth it to get one for me... given how many other models I've splurged on for my chosen faction (trollbloods- whatever the Hordes Colossals end up being called)

They're 90mm by 120mm I believe.

The Stormwall is rather meh IMHO, mostly due to the placement of its weapons. I'll probably get the Khador variant via Miniature Market, which has proven to be a reliable source for my WM needs.

As a player of Warmachine and not 40k/WFB, I still find the comparison with other large kits made by other manufacturers (like GW) to be very useful when discussing the price point of the Stormwall.

Privateer simply cannot match the price of GW's injection moulded plastic kits like the Trygon, Stompa, Arachnorok, etc., as doing an injection kit requires more units to be sold than PP is capable of.

They have no real choice but to make it resin and metal and price it high.

One way they could have lowered the price would be to go back to the original fluff where the colossals are not new, but old. They were the first "warjacks" from before there were even factions. Had Privateer gone with the angle of old colossals being brought out of retirement, found in Orgoth era weapons caches, etc.,. they could have made a single collosal kit with a common chasis and then individual weapons, parts and stylized faction options to make it the right faction.

Then the single kit would have more castings and more volume and the price could be lowered. Perhaps even the same type of plastic could be used as their heavy jack kits.

Instead they opted to make 6 different kits (possibly up to 10-11 once you include hordes) as the core of their next release.

Simple economics-- you can't make 6 kits that will sell less units at the same price as GW's plastic kits.

As for the individual customer-- they will have to decide if they find value here. I don't. I don't play 40k or WFB, and I'd still be more likely to buy a Trygon or an Arachnorok than the Stormwall, despite having a Cygnar army.

I must say I am underwhelmed by the looks of the colosal I really hope the PoM one looks better. As for the price, all I can say is the PoM colosal better look better before I consider buying one.

And this:

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Lets all admit it. There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.

I don't have a problem with that, so much as the mod response. Personally, I would have much preferred a lock to rampant censorship that felt like PP favoritism.

I was a pressganger for awhile back in MKI when the game was still good. I would never have used influences in other forums to hide the comparrisons. Back in the day we loved to have someone start it because that led to showing more of the advantage to the new game. Now to see a pressganger hide from it just goes to show you how far the game has slipped. For the record I still play both warmachine and Hordes as well as WH40K and WHF. I hoe PP gets back to what made them great in the begining.

darknightwing wrote:I would never have used influences in other forums to hide the comparrisons. Back in the day we loved to have someone start it because that led to showing more of the advantage to the new game. Now to see a pressganger hide from it just goes to show you how far the game has slipped.

*facepalm*

The comparisons are still there. They were never edited out. Backread! The only posts taken away were the ones where people started getting heated.

geez. Nobody went gestapo here.

And what is it with the need to predict a company's doom? "Back when the game was good" "PP has peaked"... do you get hipster points for doing so? People have been predicting GW's doom for years. Theyre still here. People have been predicting Warmachine's fall since Superiority. They're still here.

oy...

Lorek wrote:-=Edit= Since I posted this, there have been several snarky comments posted. If you're not discussing the Stormwall, it's off-topic. A few warnings have been sent.

QUIT IT.

DeathGod wrote:That being said, as SpiralingCadaver commented, this smacks of hypocrisy. Where is this kind of knee-jerk reaction when anti-GW hate-threads reach into their 20th page? Where is this kind of reaction when PP fanboys (of which I am one, and I will be purchasing two stormwalls at the earliest possible moment) derail entire threads with their OMG-another-price-hike rants, even when the thread has nothing to do with pricing?

Hypocrisy? Really?

All of the moderators see threads that veer slightly off-topic and into well-trodden discussions like the ones you mention. Sometimes we let them slide, or post a simple reminder to stay on-topic. Sometimes we do what Malfred did here, and removed a great deal of back-and-forth vitriol that isn't meaningful discussion about the new release. Just because we do this sometimes, and not all the time, doesn't mean that we are hypocritical about this. It's always been rather popular to lash out at moderators (not just here; any place with moderation will get this), but you have to realize that we're here to make things run more smoothly overall. Sometimes we miss things; I personally spend about an hour a day on Dakka Dakka, and I barely scratch the surface of the content (it's about 70/30 for pleasure reading/moderation).

It oftentimes comes down to the amount of effort required for a cleanup. I'm guessing that Malfred spent a good half-hour cleaning up this thread; that's a non-trivial amount of time for someone with a full-time job. We simply can't do it all the time, nor do I think we need to. Malfred clearly stated his biases in his post; it's not like he's hiding something (and he's not a GW opponent either; the man paints a LOT of miniatures).

We understand that posters can get nervous when Mods swing the big ol' Mod Hammer around like Malfred did. The thing is, we don't do it often. We use it when our frustrations have reached a breaking point, and we use it to make a point. I personally detest these 60-page News and Rumors threads that require 10 minutes of digging to find all the good bits of information; I feel that people's opinions of what's new (or even worse, wishlisting) don't add to the thread at all, especially comments like "Wow, this is so cool!" or "It's about time". This has become more of a problem in the past few years as Dakka's membership has grown.

Going back to your original points, we have seen many anti-GW threads and price hike threads, but most of them are in Dakka Discussions or 40K General Discussions, where they belong. They don't belong in News and Rumors.

I'm going to stop this here to keep it from being too much of a Stormwall of text (hah hah! Lorek's a lamer). I hope I've shed some more light on things from the moderator side though.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to write my part, lol...

I bolded the hypocrisy in your claim to not be hypocritical (and let me again state that this is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT directed at the particular Mods who have commented in this thread, but rather an in-general statement). The fact that you believe something to be crossing a line, and admittedly take one action sometimes, another action other times, and yet a third action in a handful of circumstances is, by definition, hypocrisy. Hypocrisy has a very heavy undertone in pop culture, but as a word, its use in this instance is very apropos. Perhaps "most" of the anti-GW threads do take place in Discussion sub-forums (I don't have access to those kind of statistics so I'll take your word for it), but as I only ever read News & Rumors and Paint Blogs, combined with the fact that I can't remember the last time I've gone a day without reading something hateriffic here at Dakka, I'm going to have to conclude that whatever the ratio is, it is still quite prolific.

And that doesn't change the fact that the removed comments were quite part and partial to one of the topics at hand - the sticker shock of the Stormwall and people's responses to it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Bakerofish wrote:There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.

And I missed it!!! I wanted to see Aggy's post.

Oh, you should have been there. It was magical.

Just to end the Warhound is the same size as the Conquest, per Forgeworld's own page:
This model stands approximately 250mm/10.5 inches high depending on how the legs are constructed.

And when I saw these models, I didn't start comparing it to GW's stuff, I compared it to Maelstrom Games Banelords. ~$80 for a equivalent sized fig. For the price of the Stormwall, you get the Lord of Dis, and it's a massive chunk of solid resin. He isn't a figure, he is a murder weapon waiting to be used by an angry gamer

For reference, my Chaos Warhound is 10.5" tall and 6" wide (from shoulder to shoulder).

Yeah, I edited the end of my post to point out it was 10.5", so I already caught my mistake. So the Conquest is about 3" shorter than the Warhound and 2" taller than the Megadred. So its price should be somewhere in between the two. It is priced much closer to the Megadred of course but it is also a great deal bigger (note that the Conquest is nearly as wide as it is tall). I was just trying to say that comparing it to a smaller kit to say that the price was unreasonable is, itself, unreasonable. The thing is approaching the size of a small Titan and comes in at a third of the price of one as well. $135 is steep but this is obviously filling the same slot as a lot of other pricey toys you find in wargaming.

As for the Banelords stuff the size is close, but again, Colossals are bigger (the tallest one I've found is 170mm which is still shorter than the Conquest, and it manages to be quite a bit less bulky). Of course there is also Krull who is also smaller than the Conquest and weighs in at 85GPB which is basically exactly as much as a Colossal. They are nice minis to be sure, but they cost $80 because they are smaller and there is one instance where they cost exactly the same.

Again, for the size of the kit, comparing it to other "luxury" priced minis it is a fairly good deal. It is taller/wider and bulkier than everything that isn't a Warhound Titan so I'd say it is doing pretty good price wise. Between the Conquest and Krull, if each are fetching about the same price (Conquest may cost more, we'll see), I'll be going with the walking artillery piece for my $135 (but the Lord of Dis is impressive nonetheless).

deathholydeath wrote:For reference, my Chaos Warhound is 10.5" tall and 6" wide (from shoulder to shoulder).

So for further reference Conquest is 7 to 7.5 inches tall and 8.5 inches wide as per the Colossal video, where it's described as being as wide as the Legion BE is tall.

Don't forget to mention the number of fiddly pieces. The more parts there are the more complex the molding of it all gets a d that will increase the price in addition to the overall size of it.

Grimtuff wrote:

deathholydeath wrote:For reference, my Chaos Warhound is 10.5" tall and 6" wide (from shoulder to shoulder).

So for further reference Conquest is 7 to 7.5 inches tall and 8.5 inches wide as per the Colossal video, where it's described as being as wide as the Legion BE is tall.

That width is blatantly wingspan rather than shoulder to shoulder. The shoulders are not wider than the base!

Comparisons are worthless though. All that really matters is whether enough people would like to buy one. If they do then we'll see more.

From a business standpoint, I would hope this (and others from Colossols) will be playable in normal games (35-50 pt range). I can't see PP selling near enough of them if it is only for large scale games (IE: Apocolypse style games).

It is a bit expensive as a stand alone model (IE: I would have to paint it very fast to avoid the fury of my wife after seeing the price tag). I've read the points for this model is in the 18-20 pt range, so that is a very significant percentage of your army in a single model ($135). Is that too high for 18-20 points when compared to other stuff folks normally buy for WM?

Personally, I think the model looks much, much better than the normal sized Warjacks. My biggest concern would be transporting something like that to the FLGS to game with it. If it falls off a table, that model looks like it would explode into a hundred tiny pieces.

With the advent of these newer and larger pieces, is WM still being played on a 4x4 surface?

One of the chief complaints I've read about this game is how caster kills is utlimately the end game. If this thing relies on a caster, would that not make it the ultimate achilles heel? I'll admit that would be a bit depressing to have such a cool piece on the table not be able to act b/c of a turn 1 or 2 caster kill.

Caster kill is a win condition, if yours dies the game is over and you lose, period. These are still on 4' tables, and their ranges aren't longer than anything else really, or at least the Battle Engines which are on the same five inch base aren't. Given PP's tendency to make sure you can't attack your opponent in their deoyment zone, I doubt these will have a range further than twenty inches on those big guns either.

keezus wrote:
I second Baker of Fish. If they are indeed 20 points, they are pretty much unplayable in 35 point games, ergo, they pose no barrier to entry. Combos that wreck heavy jacks with attacks to spare will buzzsaw through these like a knife through butter. We're talking commonly seen units that cost 1/2 the cost of a Colossal. IMHO, they are more of an army centerpiece, for huge games and/or special scenario events that a store might want to run.

You say that now, but tis is warmahordes. Someone, somewhere, is going to come up with a viable list. Khador? Colassal, battle mecahnics, manowar squad or two and away you go in 35 pts.

We havent seen the rules for them yet granted, but as I understand it, But they arent battle engines- they count as part of a battle group......so affect by casters spells, or perhaps even count against warjack points maybe(doubtful, but who knows).

BuFFo wrote:Stop the pissing contest. -malf-

Oh, it is nice to see my post get moderated, but the pissing match didn't stop and continued DIRECTLY after your mod warning, and those 2 pages haven't been moderated?

Feels like the PP forum in here... Guess talking about the pricing was different than the other posters who continue talking about the pricing?

- edit -

Oh yeah... That on topic thing that I'll get moderated for anyway.... At 135 bucks, the model does seem a bit pricey... But it would be nice knowing I could use it in normal Hordes games, while FW models are rarely if ever used without being proxied in some way.

frozenwastes wrote:As a player of Warmachine and not 40k/WFB, I still find the comparison with other large kits made by other manufacturers (like GW) to be very useful when discussing the price point of the Stormwall.

Privateer simply cannot match the price of GW's injection moulded plastic kits like the Trygon, Stompa, Arachnorok, etc., as doing an injection kit requires more units to be sold than PP is capable of.

They have no real choice but to make it resin and metal and price it high.

True, although comparing it to FW (I saw a previous poster did attempt to) shows it to be pretty much on the mark price-wise, in my opinion. Obviously, it can't compete with a huge, awesome plastic kit- but there aren't all that many from GW, either. I.e., in fantasy there's now one large dual-use monster kit per new release pretty much, and while that's awesome, I don't think it's to the same scale as this model.

Anyway, I'm getting it when they release the troll one . I'm too invested already not to!

BrookM wrote:The Stormwall is rather meh IMHO, mostly due to the placement of its weapons. I'll probably get the Khador variant via Miniature Market, which has proven to be a reliable source for my WM needs.

We think alike, BrookM (although I won't pick up the Khador one since I know so many Khador players... I'm sure at least one of them will, so I can see it in-person)

RiTides wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:As a player of Warmachine and not 40k/WFB, I still find the comparison with other large kits made by other manufacturers (like GW) to be very useful when discussing the price point of the Stormwall.

Privateer simply cannot match the price of GW's injection moulded plastic kits like the Trygon, Stompa, Arachnorok, etc., as doing an injection kit requires more units to be sold than PP is capable of.

They have no real choice but to make it resin and metal and price it high.

True, although comparing it to FW (I saw a previous poster did attempt to) shows it to be pretty much on the mark price-wise, in my opinion. Obviously, it can't compete with a huge, awesome plastic kit- but there aren't all that many from GW, either. I.e., in fantasy there's now one large dual-use monster kit per new release pretty much, and while that's awesome, I don't think it's to the same scale as this model.

Anyway, I'm getting it when they release the troll one . I'm too invested already not to!

BrookM wrote:The Stormwall is rather meh IMHO, mostly due to the placement of its weapons. I'll probably get the Khador variant via Miniature Market, which has proven to be a reliable source for my WM needs.

We think alike, BrookM (although I won't pick up the Khador one since I know so many Khador players... I'm sure at least one of them will, so I can see it in-person)

My issue isn't the price of EITHER PP or GW/FW... It all comes down to usability. I'll use a Colossus/Battle Engine FAR MORE than I ever did my three Stompas.... Well, I am not sure about the Colossus yet....

Yeah, I'm hoping that's true for me, too! Just about to try out the battle engine(s ) I picked up, and hoping they're viable. It is nice not to have to get permission to use these crazy models, though (and, hopefully, still have them not be game-breaking).

Lets keep arguing about price yipee!

Now consider that the Stormwall is a product that sits on the shelf next to the existing PP range. Where a customer can purchase it at the counter.

Now consider the FW equivelent, sitting in a bin in england, waiting to be ziplocked and sent to the customer.

FW the better bargain? How much is your time worth?

After having purchased the WM starter, with the resi-plasti-whatever-they-use-stuff, I have good faith in these large models, hybrid kit or not. Chances of me fielding one though are slim to nil, I'll probably get one as a centre piece for my wee army, or dare I say it, my very first model to faff about with painting it all fancy and whatnot.

SO I showed the colossals to the wife and told her I was getting the blue one, for $135...she said "fine, but I want the awesome looking red one". So looks like PP will have me for one of each.

fire4effekt wrote:Lets keep arguing about price yipee!

Now consider that the Stormwall is a product that sits on the shelf next to the existing PP range. Where a customer can purchase it at the counter.

Now consider the FW equivelent, sitting in a bin in england, waiting to be ziplocked and sent to the customer.

FW the better bargain? How much is your time worth?

How much is my time worth? I don't even know what tha means in this regard. I can sit on my couch and order something online in my underwear, so who cares if the colossals are in the shelf.

Further, I love how the justifications to the price seem to want the best of everything:

Well you can buy it on the shelf but cheaper online.
Well you can use it in a "regular" game but I dont think I ever will because of the pOint cost.

You get it one way or the other. Not both, especially if you're going to use half of the argument as a justification as to why this $135 price tag is more acceptable than another $135 price tag.

It's expensive, but I think it will be worth it... will post a better opinion once I see one in-person

So far I've thought that the Battle Engines seem appropriately priced for their size, and I'm expecting the same here.

Well here's a few other bits and bobs that will make it more worth it. From the NQ spoilers thread on the PP forums:



That has swayed a lot of my fears regarding how useful they'll be on the battlefield.

Grimtuff- do they have pathfinder, like Battle Engines do?

RiTides wrote:Grimtuff- do they have pathfinder, like Battle Engines do?

Not sure, as I don't have No Quarter yet. Due to their size I would imagine that they will have it.