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I think they look cool.

However, the Battle Engine release didn't do very well at the local store. In fact, I haven't ever seen one be used in the shop, and I saw two once at a 30 man tournament.

As a result, the shop owner is pretty wary about stocking these items as the Battle Engines are already gathering a decent layer of dust.

As a troll player, I love the look of our Battle Engine but it seriously has no synergy with my caster, so it's a pass for me.

I think the problem with battle engines was how very underwhelming they were game wise.

The battle engines are hit or miss. I've gotten good use out of mine, but honestly they're better played at point values far above the standard 35. At 50 that's the sweet spot. For colossals, they'll probably work better at 35 due to them being part of the battlegroup, counting as a warjack, and having access to focus.

One thing to remember is that the Colossals books also includes the full and final rules for Unbound battles, which are fights at 150 points or more.

It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use.

Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.

While these arguments have been used before. I'm buying Colossals for multiple reasons, first, for vanity. Let's face it, big models on the table are a great conversation piece, and I'm a very good painter.

Second, that's $135+tax of my money, but for the cost it's a large chunk of my army.

Third, unlike 40K Apocalypse stuff, I can use it in the base game much like how I use battle engines a lot even in smaller games. It may not be optimal in smaller games, but at least I have the choice of using it.

Fourth, PP have done a lot in the rules to make these things useful, such as the aforementioned aspects that make them immune to disruption, being stationary, etc. They feel like big things and when they hit the table they still do something, but aren't overpowered.

Lastly, it's hinted at abilities should fit well into my Cygnar army.

Vertrucio wrote:The battle engines are hit or miss. I've gotten good use out of mine, but honestly they're better played at point values far above the standard 35. At 50 that's the sweet spot. For colossals, they'll probably work better at 35 due to them being part of the battlegroup, counting as a warjack, and having access to focus.

One thing to remember is that the Colossals books also includes the full and final rules for Unbound battles, which are fights at 150 points or more.

It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use.

Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.

While these arguments have been used before. I'm buying Colossals for multiple reasons, first, for vanity. Let's face it, big models on the table are a great conversation piece, and I'm a very good painter.

Second, that's $135+tax of my money, but for the cost it's a large chunk of my army.

Third, unlike 40K Apocalypse stuff, I can use it in the base game much like how I use battle engines a lot even in smaller games. It may not be optimal in smaller games, but at least I have the choice of using it.

Fourth, PP have done a lot in the rules to make these things useful, such as the aforementioned aspects that make them immune to disruption, being stationary, etc. They feel like big things and when they hit the table they still do something, but aren't overpowered.

Lastly, it's hinted at abilities should fit well into my Cygnar army.

That is cool to know they can be used in normal games. To me, that is a huge incentive to get one. And yes, these would look very cool on the tabletop once nicely painted.

Vertrucio wrote:Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.

If they do that I bet it'll be called Mk. 3, lol...

"We're not making enough money! The Colossals didn't sell as well as expected!", "Bigger games = more models, make them play bigger games and they'll have to buy more models!" So then like 3rd edition 40k the rules will become super streamlined for faster play and points costs will all go down drastically so that the average army will double or triple in size. $$$$

Vertrucio wrote:Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.

Agreed... I can't imagine how long a 150 point match would take. Rules have to be streamlined at that level... you can't keep activating everything individually, or the like, for it to be at all manageable.

Looking forward to having the rules for it in one place, I just hope they tweak it a bit more before "setting it down" final...

kronk wrote:

malfred wrote:
Good stuff.

I support it. Guys, stop being dicks. Talk about PP. Talk about the new model. Then go enjoy the weekend. Me, I'm going to a British Pub in Houston with my girlfriend, my buddy, and his wife.

Your weekend sounded mint, how did it go?

Vertrucio wrote:

It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use..

I much preferred WM when it actually was a skirmish game...

Isn't this a case of 'well they were doing it anyway?'

I know I was playing games of Apocalypse before it was called Apocalypse. I'm sure that groups of players have gathered together their entire WM armies to play big games before. Why not support that with specific releases for those big games?

It made sense for GW to do it, why not PP?

Zoned wrote:I think they look cool.

However, the Battle Engine release didn't do very well at the local store. In fact, I haven't ever seen one be used in the shop, and I saw two once at a 30 man tournament.

As a result, the shop owner is pretty wary about stocking these items as the Battle Engines are already gathering a decent layer of dust.

As a troll player, I love the look of our Battle Engine but it seriously has no synergy with my caster, so it's a pass for me.

Surtur wrote:I think the problem with battle engines was how very underwhelming they were game wise.

Vertrucio wrote:The battle engines are hit or miss. I've gotten good use out of mine, but honestly they're better played at point values far above the standard 35. At 50 that's the sweet spot. For colossals, they'll probably work better at 35 due to them being part of the battlegroup, counting as a warjack, and having access to focus.

One thing to remember is that the Colossals books also includes the full and final rules for Unbound battles, which are fights at 150 points or more.

It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use.

Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.

While these arguments have been used before. I'm buying Colossals for multiple reasons, first, for vanity. Let's face it, big models on the table are a great conversation piece, and I'm a very good painter.

Second, that's $135+tax of my money, but for the cost it's a large chunk of my army.

Third, unlike 40K Apocalypse stuff, I can use it in the base game much like how I use battle engines a lot even in smaller games. It may not be optimal in smaller games, but at least I have the choice of using it.

Fourth, PP have done a lot in the rules to make these things useful, such as the aforementioned aspects that make them immune to disruption, being stationary, etc. They feel like big things and when they hit the table they still do something, but aren't overpowered.

Lastly, it's hinted at abilities should fit well into my Cygnar army.

What I'm looking for from the Colossals is the same thing that I see in the
Battle Engines, and that is balance for its point cost. You really don't
just plop a 9-10 point battle engine and expect it to hum. There has
to be a plan and there has to be a list fitted to it. I call that balanced.

The problem with group think on some of this is that if it's not good
at opening a hole and assassinating a caster all on its own, then it's
often not deemed as useful. But the battle engines all do mean things,
and I'm hoping that the colossals do as well.

On topic: This thing is a beast. I don't play PP, but spending 20 of your 35 points on one model seems kinda high...

mattyrm wrote:

kronk wrote:
Then go enjoy the weekend. Me, I'm going to a British Pub in Houston with my girlfriend, my buddy, and his wife.

Your weekend sounded mint, how did it go?

Excellent! I had Fish and chips with a Black & Tan (Guinness Stout and Fuller's ESB)

Bayview Duck!

I'm excited that PP is trying to tap into the "forgeworld Market."

This is a tough thing for a lot of people to swallow, but it's true: not everybody can have everything they want. In this case, not everybody can afford the same stuff. I know nobody has sympathy for people with large amounts of disposable income, but I'd rather buy one big ticket item than a bunch of smaller stuff.

As for "pricing people out," don't high model count, metal units do that far better? I mean, how many points is a complete trencher or winterguard unit? How many dollars?

CT GAMER wrote:

Vertrucio wrote:

It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use..

I much preferred WM when it actually was a skirmish game...

This game is still Skirmish based, it's far from being a large scale game like Flames of War, Dystopian Wars, Firestorm Armada, or GW's games. Sure the big colossal is coming out to play, but there is nothing that makes this thing an auto include. And like people said, it's probably going to die to a weapon master unit on the charge. The only thing it might have going for it is that it might be able to fire while in melee (similar to Behemoth).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Isn't this a case of 'well they were doing it anyway?'

I know I was playing games of Apocalypse before it was called Apocalypse. I'm sure that groups of players have gathered together their entire WM armies to play big games before. Why not support that with specific releases for those big games?

It made sense for GW to do it, why not PP?

Absolutely! The store I play at just had an unbound game, but they spent a weekend and did a 300 point Khador vs. Menoth game about a year or so ago. So you're absolutely right, just people were playing large games before there were official rules...

Polonius wrote:I'm excited that PP is trying to tap into the "forgeworld Market."

This is a tough thing for a lot of people to swallow, but it's true: not everybody can have everything they want. In this case, not everybody can afford the same stuff. I know nobody has sympathy for people with large amounts of disposable income, but I'd rather buy one big ticket item than a bunch of smaller stuff.

As for "pricing people out," don't high model count, metal units do that far better? I mean, how many points is a complete trencher or winterguard unit? How many dollars?

I agree, I'd rather just buy the whole unit in a box and not worry about the blisters I need to buy with it, but at the same time I feel bad for Cryx players, who have to spend almost 110 dollars on their Bane Thrall unit and UA... not to mention another 50 if they want a unit of Bane Knights...


In the end, those that want the model for in game purposes will still buy the model, regardless of cost, and those that want to collect it because they like the look, or they're completionists and want everything for their faction will still buy this.

I'll probably buy the Trollblood Colossal only, even though I have Cygnar, Khador, and Skorne armies as well...

I think some of the initial charm, appeal, and feel of the game is being diluted/ lost with the inclusion of things lime Collossals and large scale battle rules like Unbound.

The Collossals from a fluff perspective were a nice piece of "lore" that one could talk about, but the Indiction was that they were something from another era.

Bringing them back sort of feels like cop-out/ ret-con of fluff and a money grab.

So are The Orgoth next?

Not to mention that these look too much like fancy high- tech warjacks and not the antiquated behemoths I would have preferred...

Mostly because they're NOT antiquated behemoths. They're brand new designs, and a hell of a lot smaller than the Orgoth War colossals (not to mention have actual cortexes).

Laughing Man wrote:Mostly because they're NOT antiquated behemoths. They're brand new designs, and a hell of a lot smaller than the Orgoth War colossals (not to mention have actual cortexes).

These facts don't make me want them in the game any more then before...

I agree that the price point seems to High in my opinion. I was really hoping to see these come in at the hundred dollar mark. I am not sure what the cost drivers were that made it nessesary to charge so much. that being said, they a sweet models and I will be buying one at least, possibly three (one for each of my army's). Unfortunentally non of this money will be going to my LGS, while I don't mind paying retail for most of my purchases, when I see I can save 20~30 dollars on a single model I will purchase from the cheaper source.

On a side note, these models will probably not be must haves, and I cant see taking them at anything but a 50 point game. That being said they will probably only appeal to a small portion of the community( which could be why they are priced so). I don't expect them to be broken good(good, but not broken good)

CT GAMER wrote:

Vertrucio wrote:

It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use..

I much preferred WM when it actually was a skirmish game...

You read my mind.

Personally, I think I was happiest with WM maybe through Apotheosis, in terms of over-all flavor. Superiority had a ton of Merc releases, which was really nice, as a merc player, but I think that the game was probably best back in the day.

MkII did some good things to the rules, and some theme lists have merits, but other than that, wile collossals look pretty cool, I agree-- they don't fit the scale that I loved. I got in to WM because I wanted an alternative to GW, but now it feels more and more like they're trying to be "GW Jr." ... well, minus the actively pissing off fans (so far...)

The main reason I don't like battle engines and especially not colossals is that it makes the warjacks look small and insignificant. I'm one of those people who endured the years of infantrymachine through mk1 and was so happy with the changes to jacks in mk2 that made them viable again.

I want the game to be about the warcaster and their battlegroup of warjacks.

I do get that the colossals are technically warjacks, but they are not the lights and heavies that have defined what a warjack is for over a decade. And their massive size makes cool models like Ol' Rowdy look tiny and impotent in comparison.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Vertrucio wrote:

It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use..

I much preferred WM when it actually was a skirmish game...

You read my mind.

Personally, I think I was happiest with WM maybe through Apotheosis, in terms of over-all flavor. Superiority had a ton of Merc releases, which was really nice, as a merc player, but I think that the game was probably best back in the day.

MkII did some good things to the rules, and some theme lists have merits, but other than that, wile collossals look pretty cool, I agree-- they don't fit the scale that I loved. I got in to WM because I wanted an alternative to GW, but now it feels more and more like they're trying to be "GW Jr." ... well, minus the actively pissing off fans (so far...)

Years ago the whole thing about WM that appealed to me was the small model count. A leader and a handful of robots. As soon as they started adding squads of multiple models I lost interest.

You do realise units have been in the game since the original Prime, right?

Laughing Man wrote:You do realise units have been in the game since the original Prime, right?

Yes we do.

I was given my first two battle box equivilants by Matt Wilson before original Prime even hit the shelves. I heard about the game, wrote him an email to discuss it (I was an LGS owner then) and he sent me two sets. Pretty cool on his part.


What We are talking about is scale of game and "feel" of play. It is an abstract thing in some ways, but it just doesnt feel the same anymore...

The game used to very much feel like a warcaser/battlegroup and a few assets meeting to duel it out with a rival. It was much more personal and focused. Warjacks the iconic focus, etc.

As the game has expanded in scope and size it has imho lost a portion of what made it so cool to begin with.

I think the collossals throw the scale out of whack as well. As somebody already mentioned, Warjacks used to seem like big hulking badasses. Now they look puny in comparison and some of their charm and uniqueness is lost.

The collossals look like what would happen if you plunked down a 54mm Inquisitor space marine as a new 40K unit... It just looks odd.

Take a look at the new FW chaos daemon engine in the other news thread: it unfortunately has the same effect. Dreadnoughts used to be the "big bad robots" in 40K tabletop (no Titans back in the day), they had a sense of reverence and uniquness as far as walker/robots went.

Now you have Dreadnights and contemptors and this new "gigantor chaos robot" coming along and dilluting the coolness that was once the SM dreadnought....

Two systems, same effect...

Even though I'm an unabashed infantrymachine player, I want
colossals for their design. Very nice!

Laughing Man wrote:You do realise units have been in the game since the original Prime, right?

As CT Gamer points out, Prime was actually released well after the game was available. I played with the quickstart rules for quite a while. It was cool when Cryx and Khador were released.

The first infantry unit available was the Cygnar mechaniks, the first real combat-capable infantry unit was the Men-o-War. It was kind of a big deal when they came out; people didn't know how well infantry would fare with the warjacks. Infantry really dominated MK1 because they were simply better. Occasionally you would see a heavy warjack (I swore by my Slayer), but for the most part it was cheaper and more effective to run infantry. Light warjacks were mostly for toting arc nodes (which is what made Cryx so effective).

However, unlike CT Gamer, I like the direction Warmachine has gone since MK2. There is a better balance (which, I think, is more driven by Hordes than by changes in the WarMachine mechanic) between warjacks and infantry, leading more to a skirmish style game, rather than the battlegroup-style game that you saw in early MK1. Back then the game was so much more one-dimensional than it is today. Infantry added a needed layer of complexity and strategy.

CT GAMER wrote:Take a look at the new FW chaos daemon engine in the other news thread: it unfortunately has the same effect. Dreadnoughts used to be the "big bad robots" in 40K tabletop (no Titans back in the day), they had a sense of reverence and uniquness as far as walker/robots went.

Now you have Dreadnights and contemptors and this new "gigantor chaos robot" coming along and dilluting the coolness that was once the SM dreadnought....

Two systems, same effect...

Titans have been around since second edition, at least, so I'm less concerned with Contemptors,Dreadknights, etc.

Defilers have also been around for nearly a decade, IIRC.

My personal problem with the Collossals is how it steps all over the fluff: Mulg being the biggest troll, Collossals being abandoned b/c of practicality, the first uniques (other than the Deathjack) essentially being unique b/c of the immense resources put in to them, etc. etc.

On the other hand, I've felt that big scary vehicles and monsters were always (since the mid 90's, at least) part of the 40k setting, they've just been getting the spotlight recently. For instance, the LR was never the biggest tank, just arguably the best, as far as I know.

But, yeah, both systems are pushing "bigger is better" hard, and I'm not a huge fan in either case.

Ok, I must have no gaming instinct--as I see WM as the exact opposite of when I played years ago.

When we first tried WM (Again, many years ago)--units dominated the board and Jacks were almost pointless (No Hordes). Jacks have become much more powerful over the years in my eyes--to the point where I don't scoff when I see someone throw down 2-3 heavies. I think they are the closest they've ever been to Jack v. Infantry balance.

You could always account for the uniques being unique because
of a combination of cortex and miniaturized technology. Maybe
the Storm Chamber of the Thunder Head only works for the
Thunderhead or something much larger than the Thunderhead.
Maybe Thorn needs its special personality in order to get the
special generator working.

Something like that.

Besides, they've recently posted that they're okay with changing
the fluff so they can come up with new ideas.

I went ahead and calculated the vertical dimension of the model based on the comparative size of the base, which is exactly 120mm. So, according to the figure, it's roughly 139mm to the tallest point. That translates to 5.47 inches tall.

AgeOfEgos wrote:When we first tried WM (Again, many years ago)--units dominated the board and Jacks were almost pointless (No Hordes). Jacks have become much more powerful over the years in my eyes--to the point where I don't scoff when I see someone throw down 2-3 heavies. I think they are the closest they've ever been to Jack v. Infantry balance.

This is definitely true, however, this was a gaming mechanic issue, not a focus issue: PP didn't know how to balance warjacks when they started, and got them much more balanced in second edition. They've always pushed warjacks (since it's most of what makes their system unique).

But, the emphasis on larger games and larger models is pushing the focus away from small games, which is my complaint and, I assume, others', too.

No complaint from me . I might be willing to play 2 'caster games.
I'm not yet convinced on Unbound.