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2012/09/30 20:42:10
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
They did start to mobilise and the BEF did land in France and advance towards the germans before getting beaten back but for the most part they were peace time armies in Europe apart from the Germans. The 6 years of Appeasement gave some time but they were still updating equipment and recruiting men which takes time and Poland was on the other side of Europe.
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
2012/09/30 20:48:10
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: They did start to mobilise and the BEF did land in France and advance towards the germans before getting beaten back but for the most part they were peace time armies in Europe apart from the Germans. The 6 years of Appeasement gave some time but they were still updating equipment and recruiting men which takes time and Poland was on the other side of Europe.
Neither England or France attack Germany before you were attacked by them. Both England and France promised us that they would attack Germany if they attacked us. Not only did you Betray us then, you even sold us (and a few other countries) to the USSR after the war.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/30 20:49:51
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
2012/09/30 20:56:29
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: They did start to mobilise and the BEF did land in France and advance towards the germans before getting beaten back but for the most part they were peace time armies in Europe apart from the Germans. The 6 years of Appeasement gave some time but they were still updating equipment and recruiting men which takes time and Poland was on the other side of Europe.
Neither England or France attack Germany before you were attacked by them.
Both England and France promised us that they would attack Germany if they attacked us.
Not only did you Betray us then, you even sold us (and a few other countries) to the USSR after the war.
It was definitely not a glittering page in our history.
2012/09/30 21:07:50
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: They did start to mobilise and the BEF did land in France and advance towards the germans before getting beaten back but for the most part they were peace time armies in Europe apart from the Germans. The 6 years of Appeasement gave some time but they were still updating equipment and recruiting men which takes time and Poland was on the other side of Europe.
Neither England or France attack Germany before you were attacked by them.
Both England and France promised us that they would attack Germany if they attacked us.
Not only did you Betray us then, you even sold us (and a few other countries) to the USSR after the war.
Not quite. There were some minor French attacks on Germany during the polish campagin.
However you are mostly right, although you can expect someone to die for anothers freedom, it would be just heroic.
2012/09/30 21:10:20
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: They did start to mobilise and the BEF did land in France and advance towards the germans before getting beaten back but for the most part they were peace time armies in Europe apart from the Germans. The 6 years of Appeasement gave some time but they were still updating equipment and recruiting men which takes time and Poland was on the other side of Europe.
Neither England or France attack Germany before you were attacked by them.
Both England and France promised us that they would attack Germany if they attacked us.
Not only did you Betray us then, you even sold us (and a few other countries) to the USSR after the war.
It was definitely not a glittering page in our history.
Yet Britain and France weren't able to launch an effective strike at any of the German forces
- The Maginot Line was directly opposite the Rhineland, the only French-German border,
-The rest was neutral or opposing countries (Netherlands/Belgium to the north, Italy and Switzerland to the south)
Without either exposing and overextending themselves by trying to fight the Dutch before the Germans as the forces available at the time were still deploying with antiquated technology.
And after the war the USSR would of had a war if we and tried to get more than what we ended up and all that would of succeeded in doing was to have the cold war between Europe and the US instead fo the USSR and Nato
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
2012/09/30 21:14:49
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Not quite. An allied invasion would have been successful in the oppinion of the most historians:
The most german forces were in Poland (to fasten the campaign to rush back to the French broder) (only 23 divisions remained, facing 110 allied divisions).
The Wehrmacht was weaker in `39 than `40 and most ,,Blitz" lessons not learned.
However it was a matter a critical timing. It was smart to put the best troops into Poland to end the campain fast, because decisions need time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/30 21:21:48
2012/09/30 21:18:18
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: They did start to mobilise and the BEF did land in France and advance towards the germans before getting beaten back but for the most part they were peace time armies in Europe apart from the Germans. The 6 years of Appeasement gave some time but they were still updating equipment and recruiting men which takes time and Poland was on the other side of Europe.
Neither England or France attack Germany before you were attacked by them.
Both England and France promised us that they would attack Germany if they attacked us.
Not only did you Betray us then, you even sold us (and a few other countries) to the USSR after the war.
It was definitely not a glittering page in our history.
Yet Britain and France weren't able to launch an effective strike at any of the German forces
- The Maginot Line was directly opposite the Rhineland, the only French-German border,
-The rest was neutral or opposing countries (Netherlands/Belgium to the north, Italy and Switzerland to the south)
Without either exposing and overextending themselves by trying to fight the Dutch before the Germans as the forces available at the time were still deploying with antiquated technology.
And after the war the USSR would of had a war if we and tried to get more than what we ended up and all that would of succeeded in doing was to have the cold war between Europe and the US instead fo the USSR and Nato
One of the truly severe mistakes was letting the Germans get their hooks into Czechoslavakia without a fight and in fact, forcing the Czechs to give up extremely defensible areas.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: They did start to mobilise and the BEF did land in France and advance towards the germans before getting beaten back but for the most part they were peace time armies in Europe apart from the Germans. The 6 years of Appeasement gave some time but they were still updating equipment and recruiting men which takes time and Poland was on the other side of Europe.
Neither England or France attack Germany before you were attacked by them.
Both England and France promised us that they would attack Germany if they attacked us.
Not only did you Betray us then, you even sold us (and a few other countries) to the USSR after the war.
It was definitely not a glittering page in our history.
Yet Britain and France weren't able to launch an effective strike at any of the German forces
- The Maginot Line was directly opposite the Rhineland, the only French-German border,
-The rest was neutral or opposing countries (Netherlands/Belgium to the north, Italy and Switzerland to the south)
Without either exposing and overextending themselves by trying to fight the Dutch before the Germans as the forces available at the time were still deploying with antiquated technology.
And after the war the USSR would of had a war if we and tried to get more than what we ended up and all that would of succeeded in doing was to have the cold war between Europe and the US instead fo the USSR and Nato
One of the truly severe mistakes was letting the Germans get their hooks into Czechoslavakia without a fight and in fact, forcing the Czechs to give up extremely defensible areas.
The Sudetenland incident was probably one of the lowest points in British history in the past 100 years, it was an absolute disgrace but at the time Britain had a peacetime army with no real technology to speak of, the years of appeasement bought Britain enough time to update thei technology and start training new soldiers so that when war came we weren't destroyed and invaded by the Germans
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
2012/09/30 21:24:13
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yet Britain and France weren't able to launch an effective strike at any of the German forces
- The Maginot Line was directly opposite the Rhineland, the only French-German border,
-The rest was neutral or opposing countries (Netherlands/Belgium to the north, Italy and Switzerland to the south)
Dont give me that , both Chamberlain and Lebrun were too afraid to do anything, the Appeasement proves that.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Without either exposing and overextending themselves by trying to fight the Dutch before the Germans as the forces available at the time were still deploying with antiquated technology.
Um, go trough the Maginot line straight into germany?
The french tanks were actually more advanced than the german! and you Brits did fine when it came to defending your own country. Maybe thats what its about, you probably tought "Oh its not our country, so it dosent matter as much."
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:And after the war the USSR would of had a war if we and tried to get more than what we ended up and all that would of succeeded in doing was to have the cold war between Europe and the US instead fo the USSR and Nato
You AGREED to let the USSR take over the countries! And none of us had any say in it!
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
2012/09/30 21:28:21
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
The allies only advantage in military hardware was in tanks. In other areas the Germans were equal if not superior. Especially in tactics.
German Tanks may have been small, but they used them to the greatest effect. Unlike the allied "land battleship" techniques that tried to apply navel tactics onto armored vehicles.
The only real disadvantage the Germans had was that they didn't have the manpower or resources to do what they did. Hitler also was not a great tactician, his general were. When he took over direct command is when things went south.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yet Britain and France weren't able to launch an effective strike at any of the German forces - The Maginot Line was directly opposite the Rhineland, the only French-German border, -The rest was neutral or opposing countries (Netherlands/Belgium to the north, Italy and Switzerland to the south)
Dont give me that , both Chamberlain and Lebrun were too afraid to do anything, the Appeasement proves that.
Appeasement although dispicable for what happened under it bought enough time for Britain to mobilise and update their armed forces
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: Without either exposing and overextending themselves by trying to fight the Dutch before the Germans as the forces available at the time were still deploying with antiquated technology.
Um, go trough the Maginot line straight into germany? The french tanks were actually more advanced than the german! and you Brits did fine when it came to defending your own country. Maybe thats what its about, you probably tought "Oh its not our country, so it dosent matter as much."
The French generals relied on the Defensive strength of the Maginot line and most of the military tactician outside of Nazi Germany hadn't advanced beyond trench warfare and as a result they were never going to attack the Rhineland as the Rhine's bridges could of been rendered useless by the defending Germans stalling the advance until they could re-deploy their superior airforce to neutralise the armour
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:And after the war the USSR would of had a war if we and tried to get more than what we ended up and all that would of succeeded in doing was to have the cold war between Europe and the US instead fo the USSR and Nato
You AGREED to let the USSR take over the countries! And none of us had any say in it!
Because anything else would of resulted in another war
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/30 21:30:27
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
2012/09/30 21:30:13
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
The sad thing about Czechoslavakia was that Hitler's generals were scared of the Czech army and Hitler's bluff would have been shown for what it was if he were told to go take a flying It would be interesting to see what would have happened if it were Churchill in charge during this time instead of Chamberlain.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/30 21:32:13
2012/09/30 21:32:17
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
but at the time the desicion to give the Sudetenland to Germany was hailed by most of western Europe who praised Chamberlain because he got the promise from Hitler that there would be no war
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
2012/09/30 21:35:41
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Grey Templar wrote: The allies only advantage in military hardware was in tanks. In other areas the Germans were equal if not superior. Especially in tactics.
German Tanks may have been small, but they used them to the greatest effect. Unlike the allied "land battleship" techniques that tried to apply navel tactics onto armored vehicles.
The only real disadvantage the Germans had was that they didn't have the manpower or resources to do what they did. Hitler also was not a great tactician, his general were. When he took over direct command is when things went south.
Like i stated, Nearly 80% of German forces were present in the east at the start of WWII. Hitler anticipated that the French And English would be too afraid to attack them. He took a gambit (again) and he succeeded.
If they attacked Germany instead of acting like cowards, they would have won before Christmas and WWII would not escalate into what it did. (Remember that in 1939 WWII was still confined to Europe.)
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
2012/09/30 21:36:16
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote: but at the time the desicion to give the Sudetenland to Germany was hailed by most of western Europe who praised Chamberlain because he got the promise from Hitler that there would be no war
This is true. Historical hindsight is almost always 20/20, but Churchil pretty well had the bastard pegged.
2012/09/30 21:39:42
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Grey Templar wrote: The allies only advantage in military hardware was in tanks. In other areas the Germans were equal if not superior. Especially in tactics.
German Tanks may have been small, but they used them to the greatest effect. Unlike the allied "land battleship" techniques that tried to apply navel tactics onto armored vehicles.
The only real disadvantage the Germans had was that they didn't have the manpower or resources to do what they did. Hitler also was not a great tactician, his general were. When he took over direct command is when things went south.
Like i stated, Nearly 80% of German forces were present in the east at the start of WWII. Hitler anticipated that the French And English would be too afraid to attack them. He took a gambit (again) and he succeeded.
If they attacked Germany instead of acting like cowards, they would have won before Christmas and WWII would not escalate into what it did. (Remember that in 1939 WWII was still confined to Europe.)
True, I mearly was giving some reasons the Allies didn't attack.
And its not like they could have done this in secret. if they had made a move the Germans would have immediatly pulled their forces back to face the threat, and the stalemate would likely have continued.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: The allies only advantage in military hardware was in tanks. In other areas the Germans were equal if not superior. Especially in tactics.
German Tanks may have been small, but they used them to the greatest effect. Unlike the allied "land battleship" techniques that tried to apply navel tactics onto armored vehicles.
The only real disadvantage the Germans had was that they didn't have the manpower or resources to do what they did. Hitler also was not a great tactician, his general were. When he took over direct command is when things went south.
Like i stated, Nearly 80% of German forces were present in the east at the start of WWII. Hitler anticipated that the French And English would be too afraid to attack them. He took a gambit (again) and he succeeded.
If they attacked Germany instead of acting like cowards, they would have won before Christmas and WWII would not escalate into what it did. (Remember that in 1939 WWII was still confined to Europe.)
Once again he French's prefered tactic was to sit back and block Germany's advances by way of the Maginot Line,
You also forget that they didn't have the internet back then and as a result didn't know the German distribution of forces or a perfectly accurate vision of all the options final results
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
2012/09/30 21:43:12
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yet Britain and France weren't able to launch an effective strike at any of the German forces
- The Maginot Line was directly opposite the Rhineland, the only French-German border,
-The rest was neutral or opposing countries (Netherlands/Belgium to the north, Italy and Switzerland to the south)
Dont give me that , both Chamberlain and Lebrun were too afraid to do anything, the Appeasement proves that.
Appeasement although dispicable for what happened under it bought enough time for Britain to mobilise and update their armed forces
And still all you managed to do in the early stage of the war was to defend your own country.
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Without either exposing and overextending themselves by trying to fight the Dutch before the Germans as the forces available at the time were still deploying with antiquated technology.
Um, go trough the Maginot line straight into germany?
The french tanks were actually more advanced than the german! and you Brits did fine when it came to defending your own country. Maybe thats what its about, you probably tought "Oh its not our country, so it dosent matter as much."
The French generals relied on the Defensive strength of the Maginot line and most of the military tactician outside of Nazi Germany hadn't advanced beyond trench warfare and as a result they were never going to attack the Rhineland as the Rhine's bridges could of been rendered useless by the defending Germans stalling the advance until they could re-deploy their superior airforce to neutralise the armour
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:And after the war the USSR would of had a war if we and tried to get more than what we ended up and all that would of succeeded in doing was to have the cold war between Europe and the US instead fo the USSR and Nato
You AGREED to let the USSR take over the countries! And none of us had any say in it!
Because anything else would of resulted in another war
Not if you tried negotiation instead of selling countries to stalin.
Grey Templar wrote: The allies only advantage in military hardware was in tanks. In other areas the Germans were equal if not superior. Especially in tactics.
German Tanks may have been small, but they used them to the greatest effect. Unlike the allied "land battleship" techniques that tried to apply navel tactics onto armored vehicles.
The only real disadvantage the Germans had was that they didn't have the manpower or resources to do what they did. Hitler also was not a great tactician, his general were. When he took over direct command is when things went south.
Like i stated, Nearly 80% of German forces were present in the east at the start of WWII. Hitler anticipated that the French And English would be too afraid to attack them. He took a gambit (again) and he succeeded.
If they attacked Germany instead of acting like cowards, they would have won before Christmas and WWII would not escalate into what it did. (Remember that in 1939 WWII was still confined to Europe.)
Once again he French's prefered tactic was to sit back and block Germany's advances by way of the Maginot Line,
You also forget that they didn't have the internet back then and as a result didn't know the German distribution of forces or a perfectly accurate vision of all the options final results
But my point that if they attacked the war would have been won before Christmas.
Even if the german forces were split evenly you would have still won! our army was the 3 third largest allied army in the early stages. You have helped, it would take the pressure off us and we would have pushed them back eventually.
Instead you betrayed us.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/30 21:47:21
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
2012/09/30 21:49:13
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Your phrasing seems to hold Dakka members responsible for decisions made in WW2.
I'm pretty sure no one posting here was in charge of any of these nations' militaries or foreign policy seventy years ago, so do you think you might cool it with the accusatory-sounding use of "you"?
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Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Yet Britain and France weren't able to launch an effective strike at any of the German forces
- The Maginot Line was directly opposite the Rhineland, the only French-German border,
-The rest was neutral or opposing countries (Netherlands/Belgium to the north, Italy and Switzerland to the south)
Dont give me that , both Chamberlain and Lebrun were too afraid to do anything, the Appeasement proves that.
Appeasement although dispicable for what happened under it bought enough time for Britain to mobilise and update their armed forces
And still all you managed to do in the early stage of the war was to defend your own country.
we were very nearly defeated, we were saved by Hitler demanding that the Luftewaffe target cities instead of airfields, if that didn't happen Britain would of been invaded and conquered
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:
Without either exposing and overextending themselves by trying to fight the Dutch before the Germans as the forces available at the time were still deploying with antiquated technology.
Um, go trough the Maginot line straight into germany?
The french tanks were actually more advanced than the german! and you Brits did fine when it came to defending your own country. Maybe thats what its about, you probably tought "Oh its not our country, so it dosent matter as much."
The French generals relied on the Defensive strength of the Maginot line and most of the military tactician outside of Nazi Germany hadn't advanced beyond trench warfare and as a result they were never going to attack the Rhineland as the Rhine's bridges could of been rendered useless by the defending Germans stalling the advance until they could re-deploy their superior airforce to neutralise the armour
So you sat and waited for the germans to come.
It was the accepted tactic of the time, they still were locked in WW1 thinking
Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:And after the war the USSR would of had a war if we and tried to get more than what we ended up and all that would of succeeded in doing was to have the cold war between Europe and the US instead fo the USSR and Nato
You AGREED to let the USSR take over the countries! And none of us had any say in it!
Because anything else would of resulted in another war
Not if you tried negotiation instead of selling countries to stalin.
Chances are Stalin would not of agreed to the negotiations, Churchill also had more of a hate for communism and the USSR than fascism and Nazi Germany. The Soviets were merely allies of convenience and situation. The USSR still had the available man-power and lack of morals to continue the war against the other allies
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
2012/09/30 21:53:45
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
I think now the best thing we can do is figure out how to help each other up.
We can't replay history, but we can learn enough from it hopefully to make a better future.
2012/09/30 21:55:09
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Mannahnin wrote: Your phrasing seems to hold Dakka members responsible for decisions made in WW2.
I'm pretty sure no one posting here was in charge of any of these nations' militaries or foreign policy seventy years ago, so do you think you might cool it with the accusatory-sounding use of "you"?
Since he was defending his country from the decisions they made, i meant "you" as in his country.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relapse wrote: I think now the best thing we can do is figure out how to help each other up. We can't replay history, but we can learn enough from it hopefully to make a better future.
The thing is the allies betrayed us twice before, sold us to the USSR and because of that our economy is still in a "meh" state. If Russia invaded Europe (Somewhat unlikely, but the current placement behavior of their armies is "questionable") How would we know if we can trust the Allies? Of course i dont speak for my entire country, im just pointing out some facts.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/30 22:06:01
motyak wrote:[...] Yes, the mods are illuminati, and yakface, lego and dakka dakka itself are the 3 points of the triangle.
2012/09/30 22:11:59
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Daemonhammer wrote: In theory you could blame the British and French for causing WWII.
If they kept their promises, and attacked Germany from behind when they invaded Poland the war would have been over before Christmas and wouldnt have evolved into a world wide conflict.
But no, they were too afraid of Hitler and just waited, and look what happened, Germans defeated the combined British-French forces faster than the Polish army.
The responsibility still lays with the Germans.
As a discussion grows in length, the probability of a comparison to Matt Ward or Gray Knights approaches one.
Mannahnin wrote: Your phrasing seems to hold Dakka members responsible for decisions made in WW2.
I'm pretty sure no one posting here was in charge of any of these nations' militaries or foreign policy seventy years ago, so do you think you might cool it with the accusatory-sounding use of "you"?
Since he was defending his country from the decisions they made, i meant "you" as in his country.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Relapse wrote: I think now the best thing we can do is figure out how to help each other up.
We can't replay history, but we can learn enough from it hopefully to make a better future.
The thing is the allies betrayed us twice before, sold us to the USSR and because of that our economy is still in a "meh" state.
If Russia invaded Europe (Somewhat unlikely, but the current placement behavior of their armies is "questionable") How would we know if we can trust the Allies?
Of course i dont speak for my entire country, im just pointing out some facts.
You're in a historically bad location, being a crossroads and all and I wish there were better options for you than having your country be a potential battlefield.
I really can't answer your question with certainty, but I don't think we would stand back and let you go under the bus based on the history behind just this very conversation.
2012/09/30 22:44:37
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Well, no. The Maginot line was built after WW1 as a precaution against further German invasion.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I just always thought it was a weird response. Germany invades France during WW1 by largely ignoring their shared border, so to prevent another attack France reinforces the border only for Germany to ignore it again during WW2.
, both Chamberlain and Lebrun were too afraid to do anything, the Appeasement proves that.
