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2012/09/28 16:38:26
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
As for the OP, my fiance is Japanese. Having spoken with her about what is taught in the schools there, yes, the American involvement in WWII is being portrayed as a war of aggression. All the Japanese children are taught about the war is that there were American economic sanctions in the 1930s and bombers in the 1940s.
My fiancé explained to me that she did not know of Pearl Harbour until she took an advanced (and optional) High School level history. She didn't hear about Nanking until I told her. She didn't understand why the Chinese and Koreans get upset about the president and prime minister of japan going on visits to the war memorial that includes the names of war criminals. She didn't know that war crimes were committed in the pacific (other than area and atomic bombing of cities, I'm not getting into that debate at this moment).
All she got from her regular school history was that:
1) in the early 20th Century the west made an effort to block the Japanese from establishing a mercantile empire on moral objections despite having established mercantile empires of their own.
2) in the 1930s the west applied sanctions to the Japanese to block the creation of said mercantile empire and starve the Japanese into submission and dependence on the west.
3) American bombers bombed Japanese cities in the 1940s culminating with the atomic bombs.
4) then MacArthur came and it turned out the western way wasn't so bad and they abandoned being warlike forever.
5) the Chinese and Koreans complain a lot for no reason and dispute claims to territory that belongs to Japan.
Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition.
2012/09/28 16:41:44
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Not to mention the US interring loads of Japanese-Americans in camps.
I will point out to this comment, that yes, America interred many Japanese-Americans into camps. BUT, we did so because many (not all) of these same citizens were actively spying against the US, and its interests. We didn't go off one day not liking the Japanese in our country and locking them up like the German Government did to Jews (and anyone else they got their hands on they didnt like), we had a cause which drew the effect of prison camps.
Did we go overboard with the camps? Maybe, but when you don't know who will be the active spy what are you going to do? The vast majority of our Counter-Intelligence was learned from the Brits during WW2, so it's not as if we could root out the spies, and give them all bad information in order to get the IJN and IJA to walk into a trap, we just didn't have those sorts of capabilities.
And unlike the Japanese and Nazi's, we didn't exterminate these people.
They were all released after the war ended.
They did get screwed over because they lost all their property, which I don't believe was right. But its in the past. We arn't going to do it again.
We aren't? I mean, technically we aren't because world war 2 had a definitive end. Instead we're just never releasing them.
whembley wrote:WW2 was total world war... in that, anything and everyone were legitimate targets. So, yes, Civvies were valid targets.
That's the kind of talk you have at the dinner table when you're breaking bread with the devil. It basically disavows any pretension either side had to being morally right at all. It's reprehensible.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2012/09/28 16:47:24
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/28 16:42:55
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Compared to many other countries, including some that are supposedly quite cosmopolitan, the US has a fairly unbiased worldview of historical events.
It can be shocking what other country's historical revisionists do with history.
Of course we have our own share of them here too. They especially like to mess with early colonial facts.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Compared to many other countries, including some that are supposedly quite cosmopolitan, the US has a fairly unbiased worldview of historical events.
It can be shocking what other country's historical revisionists do with history.
Of course we have our own share of them here too. They especially like to mess with early colonial facts.
And civil war history/the sciences. Don't even bother with economic history textbooks, those are about as revisionist as humanly possible (Hayak shouldn't even be in them).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/28 16:49:05
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/28 17:10:10
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
If the ingenious people of North America hadn't released the nano-virus, the cyborgs never would have left and we wouldn't have needed slaves to do all the work to get this country started. We also wouldn't have had to phase shift most of them to the parallax boundary if they hadn't started the war either. It is quite obvious to anyone, really. You can read about it at Colonial Williamsburg.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/28 17:10:41
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/09/28 17:16:30
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Grey Templar wrote: Compared to many other countries, including some that are supposedly quite cosmopolitan, the US has a fairly unbiased worldview of historical events.
It can be shocking what other country's historical revisionists do with history.
Of course we have our own share of them here too. They especially like to mess with early colonial facts.
And civil war history/the sciences. Don't even bother with economic history textbooks, those are about as revisionist as humanly possible (Hayak shouldn't even be in them).
I have to (skin crawls) agree with Shuma here, probably for different reasons. Lies My Teacher Told Me has SW pretty good explanations of why the history you are taught is often pretty contorted. My personal favorite is Helen Keller :I was deeply engaged in an argument with one of those wild right wing nutjobs berating me for my socialist RINOism and he threw a Helen Keller quote at me. Epic fail.
Avatar 720 wrote: You see, to Auston, everyone is a Death Star; there's only one way you can take it and that's through a small gap at the back.
Powder Burns wrote:what they need to make is a fullsize leatherman, like 14" long folded, with a bone saw, notches for bowstring, signaling flare, electrical hand crank generator, bolt cutters..
2012/09/28 17:20:36
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
There is a pretty good book called "The Shoemaker and Tea Party" that is ostensibly about the Boston Tea Party as seen through the eyes of a Boston Shoemaker but is actually a discussion on communal history versus actual history, and why the two are different.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/09/28 17:30:56
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
As for the OP, my fiance is Japanese. Having spoken with her about what is taught in the schools there, yes, the American involvement in WWII is being portrayed as a war of aggression. All the Japanese children are taught about the war is that there were American economic sanctions in the 1930s and bombers in the 1940s.
My fiancé explained to me that she did not know of Pearl Harbour until she took an advanced (and optional) High School level history. She didn't hear about Nanking until I told her. She didn't understand why the Chinese and Koreans get upset about the president and prime minister of japan going on visits to the war memorial that includes the names of war criminals. She didn't know that war crimes were committed in the pacific (other than area and atomic bombing of cities, I'm not getting into that debate at this moment).
All she got from her regular school history was that:
1) in the early 20th Century the west made an effort to block the Japanese from establishing a mercantile empire on moral objections despite having established mercantile empires of their own.
2) in the 1930s the west applied sanctions to the Japanese to block the creation of said mercantile empire and starve the Japanese into submission and dependence on the west.
3) American bombers bombed Japanese cities in the 1940s culminating with the atomic bombs.
4) then MacArthur came and it turned out the western way wasn't so bad and they abandoned being warlike forever.
5) the Chinese and Koreans complain a lot for no reason and dispute claims to territory that belongs to Japan.
Wow.... I'm not even sure how to digest that completely.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
As for the OP, my fiance is Japanese. Having spoken with her about what is taught in the schools there, yes, the American involvement in WWII is being portrayed as a war of aggression. All the Japanese children are taught about the war is that there were American economic sanctions in the 1930s and bombers in the 1940s.
My fiancé explained to me that she did not know of Pearl Harbour until she took an advanced (and optional) High School level history. She didn't hear about Nanking until I told her. She didn't understand why the Chinese and Koreans get upset about the president and prime minister of japan going on visits to the war memorial that includes the names of war criminals. She didn't know that war crimes were committed in the pacific (other than area and atomic bombing of cities, I'm not getting into that debate at this moment).
All she got from her regular school history was that:
1) in the early 20th Century the west made an effort to block the Japanese from establishing a mercantile empire on moral objections despite having established mercantile empires of their own.
2) in the 1930s the west applied sanctions to the Japanese to block the creation of said mercantile empire and starve the Japanese into submission and dependence on the west.
3) American bombers bombed Japanese cities in the 1940s culminating with the atomic bombs.
4) then MacArthur came and it turned out the western way wasn't so bad and they abandoned being warlike forever.
5) the Chinese and Koreans complain a lot for no reason and dispute claims to territory that belongs to Japan.
Wow.... I'm not even sure how to digest that completely.
Psst: It's always our fault...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/28 19:42:53
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2012/09/28 19:47:19
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
As for the OP, my fiance is Japanese. Having spoken with her about what is taught in the schools there, yes, the American involvement in WWII is being portrayed as a war of aggression. All the Japanese children are taught about the war is that there were American economic sanctions in the 1930s and bombers in the 1940s.
My fiancé explained to me that she did not know of Pearl Harbour until she took an advanced (and optional) High School level history. She didn't hear about Nanking until I told her. She didn't understand why the Chinese and Koreans get upset about the president and prime minister of japan going on visits to the war memorial that includes the names of war criminals. She didn't know that war crimes were committed in the pacific (other than area and atomic bombing of cities, I'm not getting into that debate at this moment).
All she got from her regular school history was that:
1) in the early 20th Century the west made an effort to block the Japanese from establishing a mercantile empire on moral objections despite having established mercantile empires of their own.
2) in the 1930s the west applied sanctions to the Japanese to block the creation of said mercantile empire and starve the Japanese into submission and dependence on the west.
3) American bombers bombed Japanese cities in the 1940s culminating with the atomic bombs.
4) then MacArthur came and it turned out the western way wasn't so bad and they abandoned being warlike forever.
5) the Chinese and Koreans complain a lot for no reason and dispute claims to territory that belongs to Japan.
I feel like the west is really undereducated about the entire Pacific war in general. Lot of people don't even know there was a war between Japan and China or that like 10,000,000 Chinese where killed (I'm not even sure that's right actually. If someone knows correct me.)
2012/09/28 19:49:51
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Once again, by the same book the IJA's atrocious behaviour in Korea and China was justified because they won those wars and the victor makes the rules.
No... that's not what I said... IJA were NOT the victors. Had they've beaten'ed the US... then, yes they'd be victors.
As far as I'm concerned (I will admit I have VERY strong views on this), war should be fought against the enemy's ARMY, not their people.
If its total world war ala WW2, Civvies are valid targets. Who funds/support any army?
If the Japanese people had known exactly what was going on in China and Korea they would not have been impressed, but what could they have done about it? Written stern letters of complaint? Japan was a millitary dictatorship, the citizens only knew what the top brass wanted them to know, and were shot at the first sign of dissention.
What did you expect them to do, send Sailor Saturn to Hadouken Admiral Tojo to death?
Your average Japanese mother is not responsible for atrocities being carried out in a distant country by Japanese troops in the same way that the average American man is not responsible for the horrors carried out in Vietnam by US soldiers.
Again... see my previous point.
In that case seeing as the US lost the Vietnam War, you cannot complain when Vietnamese soldiers burst into your home, bayonet you and rape your wife.
Blow up as many soldiers as you like (within reason) but the moment millitary brutality extends onto innocent civilians is the moment you lose all rights to feel morally superior. I don't care who's doing it to who or why, Japanese on Chinese, German on Russian, British on German, American on Japaneseor a country's government on their own people. it's all equally monstrous.
This get's up my craw... to me, if you go to war... this whole "within reason" crap needs to stop. If we have to spend blood and treasure, you go "do you business by laying down the hammer", then get out.
Case in point: The crap that we're doing in Pakistan with armed drones needs to stop. If there's objectives there, get our guys down there with the help of the ISI and get it done... then get out. WE are the one terrorizing the locals there. (and this isn't a total world war)
I disagree entirely. Wars should be fought with as little collateral damage as possible. Really we need not to be fighting, or rather not to have started fighting at all. I recommend a "sorry we screwed up" and a hasty retreat.
But it's all alright, because we were the good guys and we won the war and ALLIES HURR!
There are no good/bad guys in total war... there's only victory.
In that case you must acknowledge US troops to be every bit as degenerate and verminous as the mentally twisted beasts of the IJA. But at least they had the excuse of being psychologically tortured to obey their commander.
Just because someone wins does not mean that what they did to win was acceptable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/28 19:52:50
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
2012/09/28 19:50:01
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Wow.... I'm not even sure how to digest that completely.
Well, I think there are some traditional cultural drivers in Japan that account for this.
1) It is very rude and disrespectful to talk publically about the shames of others. Discussing anothers shame is almost as shameful as the actual infraction being discussed.
2) Ancestors are to be honored (worshipped even) or their unhappy spirits will cause you great distress in your life.
Combine these two factors and you have a culture that really just doesn't even want to talk about it and finds the whole topic uncomfortable. In the early years after the war this wasn't so problematic as everyone more or less knew what happened, but as we move to Japanese who are three or more generations separated from the war the lack of knowledge of their own history continues to grow. As a history major and someone who thinks that there are great lessons that humanity can learn from the first half of the 20th century this concerns me greatly.
Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition.
2012/09/28 19:50:29
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
A pretty good quote that I got from a documentary on Dresden was, "The most immoral thing the Allies could have done in WW2 was lose." Which I think is pretty accurate, because even if some of the things that were done by the Allies were reprehensible, what would have followed an Axis victory would have been far far worse. Unless of course you're white and Germanic, then it wouldn't have been way too bad.
Anyone read The Man in the High Castle by Philip K, Dick?
Ratbarf wrote: A pretty good quote that I got from a documentary on Dresden was, "The most immoral thing the Allies could have done in WW2 was lose." Which I think is pretty accurate, because even if some of the things that were done by the Allies were reprehensible, what would have followed an Axis victory would have been far far worse. Unless of course you're white and Germanic, then it wouldn't have been way too bad.
Anyone read The Man in the High Castle by Philip K, Dick?
Tell that to the guy 2 pages ago saying the Americans were getting ready to depopulate the Japanese isles entirely.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/28 20:00:04
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Wow.... I'm not even sure how to digest that completely.
Well, I think there are some traditional cultural drivers in Japan that account for this.
1) It is very rude and disrespectful to talk publically about the shames of others. Discussing anothers shame is almost as shameful as the actual infraction being discussed.
2) Ancestors are to be honored (worshipped even) or their unhappy spirits will cause you great distress in your life.
Combine these two factors and you have a culture that really just doesn't even want to talk about it and finds the whole topic uncomfortable. In the early years after the war this wasn't so problematic as everyone more or less knew what happened, but as we move to Japanese who are three or more generations separated from the war the lack of knowledge of their own history continues to grow. As a history major and someone who thinks that there are great lessons that humanity can learn from the first half of the 20th century this concerns me greatly.
You might want to add into that the traditionalists and militarists role in shaping the curricula. It would be akin to a Confederate sympathized getting to decide what would be taught as a national standard. That of course, is another issue, in that we have no national educational standard, whereas Japan does. This isn't really a new issue, to be honest, and has been a point of debate for some time.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2012/09/28 20:03:02
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Ratbarf wrote: A pretty good quote that I got from a documentary on Dresden was, "The most immoral thing the Allies could have done in WW2 was lose." Which I think is pretty accurate, because even if some of the things that were done by the Allies were reprehensible, what would have followed an Axis victory would have been far far worse. Unless of course you're white and Germanic, then it wouldn't have been way too bad.
Anyone read The Man in the High Castle by Philip K, Dick?
Tell that to the guy 2 pages ago saying the Americans were getting ready to depopulate the Japanese isles entirely.
Nobody wanted to do that, but we were faced with a situation where thats what we would be forced to do.
Otherwise the war would continue.
Seriously, look up Bushido. It calls for some pretty fethed up things.
Heck, even today suicide is a socially acceptable response to just about any failure in Japan. Failed to get into the school of your choice? Commit Seppuku. A student gets a C on an exam, commits Seppuku.
The Japanese mindset was, and is, radically different to other parts of the world.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ratbarf wrote: A pretty good quote that I got from a documentary on Dresden was, "The most immoral thing the Allies could have done in WW2 was lose." Which I think is pretty accurate, because even if some of the things that were done by the Allies were reprehensible, what would have followed an Axis victory would have been far far worse. Unless of course you're white and Germanic, then it wouldn't have been way too bad.
Anyone read The Man in the High Castle by Philip K, Dick?
Tell that to the guy 2 pages ago saying the Americans were getting ready to depopulate the Japanese isles entirely.
...What...
Who said that? And why the hell would they think that? If they did that, where would the world get all of its clever electronic gadgets and weird cute things from?
Depopulating Japan would spell the doom (or at least boredom) of 75% of the world.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
2012/09/28 20:06:16
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Ratbarf wrote: A pretty good quote that I got from a documentary on Dresden was, "The most immoral thing the Allies could have done in WW2 was lose." Which I think is pretty accurate, because even if some of the things that were done by the Allies were reprehensible, what would have followed an Axis victory would have been far far worse. Unless of course you're white and Germanic, then it wouldn't have been way too bad.
Anyone read The Man in the High Castle by Philip K, Dick?
Tell that to the guy 2 pages ago saying the Americans were getting ready to depopulate the Japanese isles entirely.
...What...
Who said that? And why the hell would they think that? If they did that, where would the world get all of its clever electronic gadgets and weird cute things from?
Depopulating Japan would spell the doom (or at least boredom) of 75% of the world.
I said it because its the truth.
But good thing we didn't for those reasons you mentioned
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ratbarf wrote: A pretty good quote that I got from a documentary on Dresden was, "The most immoral thing the Allies could have done in WW2 was lose." Which I think is pretty accurate, because even if some of the things that were done by the Allies were reprehensible, what would have followed an Axis victory would have been far far worse. Unless of course you're white and Germanic, then it wouldn't have been way too bad.
Anyone read The Man in the High Castle by Philip K, Dick?
Tell that to the guy 2 pages ago saying the Americans were getting ready to depopulate the Japanese isles entirely.
Nobody wanted to do that, but we were faced with a situation where thats what we would be forced to do.
Otherwise the war would continue.
Seriously, look up Bushido. It calls for some pretty fethed up things.
Heck, even today suicide is a socially acceptable response to just about any failure in Japan. Failed to get into the school of your choice? Commit Seppuku. A student gets a C on an exam, commits Seppuku.
The Japanese mindset was, and is, radically different to other parts of the world.
Whilst suicide is legal in Japan, and there is intense pressure to succeed, it definately isn't that bad. Otherwise the population would be halving every week.
Ratbarf wrote: A pretty good quote that I got from a documentary on Dresden was, "The most immoral thing the Allies could have done in WW2 was lose." Which I think is pretty accurate, because even if some of the things that were done by the Allies were reprehensible, what would have followed an Axis victory would have been far far worse. Unless of course you're white and Germanic, then it wouldn't have been way too bad.
Anyone read The Man in the High Castle by Philip K, Dick?
Tell that to the guy 2 pages ago saying the Americans were getting ready to depopulate the Japanese isles entirely.
...What...
Who said that? And why the hell would they think that? If they did that, where would the world get all of its clever electronic gadgets and weird cute things from?
Depopulating Japan would spell the doom (or at least boredom) of 75% of the world.
I said it because its the truth.
But good thing we didn't for those reasons you mentioned
Exactly. We need our daily dose of Kawaii from somewhere.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/28 20:08:27
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
2012/09/28 20:08:43
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Ratbarf wrote: A pretty good quote that I got from a documentary on Dresden was, "The most immoral thing the Allies could have done in WW2 was lose." Which I think is pretty accurate, because even if some of the things that were done by the Allies were reprehensible, what would have followed an Axis victory would have been far far worse. Unless of course you're white and Germanic, then it wouldn't have been way too bad.
Anyone read The Man in the High Castle by Philip K, Dick?
Tell that to the guy 2 pages ago saying the Americans were getting ready to depopulate the Japanese isles entirely.
Nobody wanted to do that, but we were faced with a situation where thats what we would be forced to do.
Otherwise the war would continue.
Seriously, look up Bushido. It calls for some pretty fethed up things.
And when you assume that an entire population of civilians follows a military code developed for and historically followed by nobles you begin to get into the realm of belief that would allow for a population to turn into suicidal zombies with pitchforks. It's patently unrealistic. Even during the warring states and unification periods, where Bushido literally was a way of life, a majority of the population of Japan didn't follow it.
Bushido wasn't something the peasant or merchant classes did. The imperial government of japan tried to implement it along nationalistic lines, but that project was doomed to failure for the same reason that communism or fascist indoctrination in the west and east failed. For the same reason that no theologically based society has pulled that off ever (including historical japan). It's impossible to coerce millions of people to willingly die for something like country or religion. There' is a breaking point and it's always reached quickly once the governmental structures that reinforced your belief and punished straying from it fail.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
2012/09/28 20:10:52
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
O' its that bad for alot of people.
Granted my examples are a little extreme, but Japan does have the 3rd highest suicide rate of any country in the world. An average of 19.7 suicides per 100,000. And its much higher among men the women(29 vs 10)
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Once again, by the same book the IJA's atrocious behaviour in Korea and China was justified because they won those wars and the victor makes the rules.
No... that's not what I said... IJA were NOT the victors. Had they've beaten'ed the US... then, yes they'd be victors.
As far as I'm concerned (I will admit I have VERY strong views on this), war should be fought against the enemy's ARMY, not their people.
If its total world war ala WW2, Civvies are valid targets. Who funds/support any army?
If the Japanese people had known exactly what was going on in China and Korea they would not have been impressed, but what could they have done about it? Written stern letters of complaint? Japan was a millitary dictatorship, the citizens only knew what the top brass wanted them to know, and were shot at the first sign of dissention.
What did you expect them to do, send Sailor Saturn to Hadouken Admiral Tojo to death?
What did you expect the Allies do? Take their licking at Pearl Harbor?
Your average Japanese mother is not responsible for atrocities being carried out in a distant country by Japanese troops in the same way that the average American man is not responsible for the horrors carried out in Vietnam by US soldiers.
Again... see my previous point.
In that case seeing as the US lost the Vietnam War, you cannot complain when Vietnamese soldiers burst into your home, bayonet you and rape your wife.
erm... what?
Blow up as many soldiers as you like (within reason) but the moment millitary brutality extends onto innocent civilians is the moment you lose all rights to feel morally superior. I don't care who's doing it to who or why, Japanese on Chinese, German on Russian, British on German, American on Japaneseor a country's government on their own people. it's all equally monstrous.
This get's up my craw... to me, if you go to war... this whole "within reason" crap needs to stop. If we have to spend blood and treasure, you go "do you business by laying down the hammer", then get out.
Case in point: The crap that we're doing in Pakistan with armed drones needs to stop. If there's objectives there, get our guys down there with the help of the ISI and get it done... then get out. WE are the one terrorizing the locals there. (and this isn't a total world war)
I disagree entirely. Wars should be fought with as little collateral damage as possible. Really we need not to be fighting, or rather not to have started fighting at all. I recommend a "sorry we screwed up" and a hasty retreat.
Disagree with what? That we're terrorizing the Pakistani?
Or disagreeing that we should use disproportionate amount of force?
But it's all alright, because we were the good guys and we won the war and ALLIES HURR!
There are no good/bad guys in total war... there's only victory.
In that case you must acknowledge US troops to be every bit as degenerate and verminous as the mentally twisted beasts of the IJA. But at least they had the excuse of being psychologically tortured to obey their commander.
No... I do NOT acknowledge that...
We.Were.At.War.
You do know what "War" is...right? Lemme help you here... it ain't the same as your usual police activity.
Just because someone wins does not mean that what they did to win was acceptable.
What do you mean by acceptable?
Truth of the matter is that the victors set the rules, hence why you'll see revisionist activities afterwards.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2012/09/28 20:15:14
Subject: Re:How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Bushido is simply a subsect of their culture. Seppuku was not just something found in Bushido. Ritual suicide was something everyone would be expected to do in certain curcumstances.
Samurai of course would not be surprised if commoners didn't do the honorable thing but that is your typical noble snobbery. Peasents and commoners would commit ritual suicide too.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
I am incredibly anti war, so our opinions are going to clash. I believe that any action that harms non combatants and innocent people is unacceptable.
Period.
The moment you put winning the war over the lives of innocent ordinary people is the moment that what you fight for isn't worth fighting for.
Yes, you can say "it's war, everything is a valid target" in that case, it is war as an idea of conflict resolution that is flawed and needs to be completely abandoned.
Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote: I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition!
2012/09/28 20:24:19
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Kilkrazy wrote:With the technology of the time it was impossible to do effective pinpoint attacks on military targets such as docks and armament factories.
That's ... not entirely true. Yes, the means for pinpoint attacks were not comparable to what is available today, but precision bombing was possible and did happen. There's a huge difference between leveling, say, a couple house blocks surrounding a factory and razing half a city with incendiary bombs. The fact is that, at some point, tactics were simply adapted to maximise the effect on the civilian population, as it was believed that eroding the fighting spirit of the general population would bring a quicker end to the war, regardless the collateral damage. Some allied military officers (unsurprisingly more within the USAAF than the RAF) even disputed the concept of carpet bombing, stating that it had little effect on the enemy's war machine - which gets more obvious when you consider those attacks where industrial areas were intentionally left unharmed because they were not situated in/near residential areas.
Morale plays a big role in a war, and unfortunately, "dirty tactics" can start to appear quite attractive when your nation is at war.
"Victory must depend on smashing the material and morale resources of a people caught in a frightful cataclysm which haunts them everywhere without cease until the final collapse of all social organization. Mercifully, the decision will be quick in this kind of war, wince the decisive blow will be aimed at civilians, that element of the countries at war least able to sustain them."
Kilkrazy wrote:Does a democratic nation have a moral duty to put its citizen soldiers' lives at peril in order to reduce the burden on civilians of an aggressor nation?
This has nothing to do with a nation's form of government, but with the morale of its culture. If a nation's military wants to don the mantle of the "noble and honourable soldier", then yes, I think this duty is there. I do acknowledge that this concept of conducting a war is rather difficult and inefficient, as it may (and likely will) reduce in casualties that may have been prevented. Then again, the same goes for any prisoner hiding a hand grenade in his hands - does that mean you should shoot anyone and take no prisoners? Do we start rounding up civilians and stage mass executions to counter an insurgency? Do we exterminate POWs because our troops should be fighting at the front rather than being "stuck" with guard duty at camps?
The real question is where would we draw the line - what are "acceptable losses" and how much avoidable collateral damage can we force upon a hostile civilian population without damaging our morale high ground? This is a very current issue, come to think of it.
Witzkatz wrote:I think the German government and by logical extension our education system are aware of "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"
Very true - and as much as I like to rant about my former countrymen, I think this is actually an area where other nations could learn from us/them.
At least as far as WW2 is concerned. German education does like to twist some things about the Cold War as well, pushing for a very black-vs-white comparison. But I guess it's just easier to condemn something that you aren't anymore rather than addressing issues of something you still identify with.
Sometimes I get the feeling that lots of Germans would like to render "Nazi" a separate entity from "German" altogether, as if it was a different species. At least that's what I occasionally get from various comments on the interwebs whenever a topic like "legacy of guilt" comes up, with people posting stuff like "let it go, that was them not us". Unfortunately it's not as easy, considering current trends and issues within the populace.
2012/09/28 20:25:59
Subject: How long is it before World War II becomes remembered as a war of American agression?
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Squigsquasher wrote: I am incredibly anti war, so our opinions are going to clash. I believe that any action that harms non combatants and innocent people is unacceptable.
Period.
The moment you put winning the war over the lives of innocent ordinary people is the moment that what you fight for isn't worth fighting for.
Yes, you can say "it's war, everything is a valid target" in that case, it is war as an idea of conflict resolution that is flawed and needs to be completely abandoned.
I agree that War is horrible.
Unfortunately people are naturally evil and as such abandoning War will never ever happen. There will always be someone on the planet that will use force to enforce their desires. And as such we can never abandon war because without that we cannot defend ourselves.
Peace requires both sides to agree to it, War only requires one.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
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