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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.

Even this is not true. Think of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Medusa. Chapter War happens (or is only very narrowly avoided) from time to time.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

My bad and apologies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

Yep them's the facts. Any thing else is fanfiction. The Unforgiven can make for great tragic characters ... but they're still traitors. I encounter the same issue with people talking about the Thousand Sons. Magnus was NOT loyal. But people will say again and again and again it wasn't his fault, he just wanted to be loyal, he didn't have it coming. None of that fits with anything published, however. The fact is that Magnus chose sorcery over his father. Yes, he's sympathetic and fascinating but he's still a traitor. The Lion and the DA have the exact opposite problem. They are loyalists who simply aren't easy to sympathize with. As Beaviz wisely pointed out, they're good but not nice. That's how good is in 40k: NOT nice, not sympathetic, not really recognizably good according to IRL standards. But just because they are so unlikable, whereas maybe someone like Magnus is very likable (he's one of my very favorite characters), they're still loyal and from the Imperial perspective they are still the "good guys."

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.

Even this is not true. Think of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Medusa. Chapter War happens (or is only very narrowly avoided) from time to time.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

My bad and apologies.

I don't know what Iron Hands incident you are speaking of but it's still not the same. I admit Chapters disagree all the time even violently but the the DAs turn on their own. They mind wipe and "disappear" their Brothers. No one acts like this. That's when I lost respect for them. It's like that scene in A Few Good men about Loyalty. Unit-Corps-God-County.

Some chapters are: Emperor- Chapter-Imperium- Humanity
Some are: Chapter-Emperor- Humanity-Imperium
etc.

The Dark Angels are: The Secret-The Secret-The Secret-Emperor.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.

Even this is not true. Think of the Iron Hands and the Sons of Medusa. Chapter War happens (or is only very narrowly avoided) from time to time.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

My bad and apologies.

I don't know what Iron Hands incident you are speaking of but it's still not the same. I admit Chapters disagree all the time even violently but the the DAs turn on their own. They mind wipe and "disappear" their Brothers. No one acts like this. That's when I lost respect for them. It's like that scene in A Few Good men about Loyalty. Unit-Corps-God-County.

Some chapters are: Emperor- Chapter-Imperium- Humanity
Some are: Chapter-Emperor- Humanity-Imperium
etc.

The Dark Angels are: The Secret-The Secret-The Secret-Emperor.

He's talking about a great schism addressing whether or not the Emperor was really the Omnissiah. The schism affected the Iron Hands and they ended up splitting, while the Mechanicus (who also suffered) just kind of agreed to sweep it under the rug.

...if I am not mistaken.

The Blood Ravens make the Dark Angels look like saints, just pointing that out.

I got into the hobby through Dawn of War and what I know of Blood Ravens fluff compared to Dark Angels fluff has me easily believing that the Blood Ravens are far worse than Dark Angels.

The Dark Angels and the Unforgiven are simply seeking out traitors to clear their name and honor, only reason they're so secretive is their own shame and dishonor due to the fact the Fallen exist.

The Blood Ravens are 'relic hunters'. They actively search for anything related to their chapter.

In Dark Crusade, they went to war on Kronus because of rumored Blood Ravens relics, they demanded that the IG left, but the IG refused due to their own orders from Segmentum Command. According to Dawn of War II, the Blood Raven's victory ending is cannon, so that means they slaughtered an entire regiment of IG, even those who sided with them, all because they were obssessed with their relics.

In Soulstorm, they went to work for the sake of finding their relics again. This time, not with just a single planet, like Kronus, but the entire Kaurava System. They sent FIVE companies, that's half of the bloody chapter. Only difference between Davian Thule's compaign and Indrick Boreale's campaign is that Indrick's caused the lost of those five companies.

The Dawn of War II Trilogy has members of the remaining chapter falling to chaos, including the chapter master. Let's add in the fact that not only do they collect relics from their chapter, they also take wargear and relics belonging to other chapters, other imperial forces and even the forces of chaos.

So while the Dark Angels have their secrets, it's nothing compared to the Blood Ravens. The only reason they haven't been disbanded, from what I've been told, is because they have friends within the Inquisition.

The IH was riven by the Moirae Schism. During the Nova Terra Interregnum, a group of Mechanicus adepts noted fluctuations in the Astronomican which they interpreted as prophetic message of the Omnissiah -- including the merging of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus. A massive civil war followed. Some of the IH Marines believed the prophecy and the chapter nearly tore itself apart. But the IH command structure is non-Codex; they are ruled by the Great Clan Council. The schismatics were therefore exiled. Now, keep in mind the IH philosophy of cutting away weakness. Basically, the schismatics were cast out for moral weakness. This is pretty much the deepest insult imaginable in their value system.

It all comes down to value systems. The IH cast out the schismatics not because they value their own purity instead of some facile notion of greater nobility, a.k.a. the "brotherhood of Marines," but precisely because their brotherhood only has meaning when viewed through the lens of strict Mechanicus orthodoxy. Orthodoxy, purity -- these are the conditions of brotherhood. It's the same with the DA. The secret is not important on its own, but only through the lens of their fanatical loyalty to the Emperor and their Primarch. Preserving this honor is their most central value, the value by which all other values are measured. The life or death of individual Marines is nothing compared to that. It's the same for all Marines: why do they fight and die to protect the rest of the Imperium, which is pretty despicable and pathetic compared to themselves? The IH especially: why sacrifice their own lives of cultivating strength for the sake of the weak?

The reason is: it is a matter of honor. And this is also why the IH ruthlessly punish the weak even after the battle is done. And why the DA stridently keep their secret, regardless of even the internal collateral damage. A brother who does not die but is dishonored should rather be dead. And if he'd rather survive dishonored -- then he is by definition a traitor. That is the definition of the Fallen. The DA creed is that honor is more important than life and they force the Fallen to accept that via Interrogator Chaplains.

 Manchu wrote:
The IH was riven by the Moirae Schism. During the Nova Terra Interregnum, a group of Mechanicus adepts noted fluctuations in the Astronomican which they interpreted as prophetic message of the Omnissiah -- including the merging of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus. A massive civil war followed. Some of the IH Marines believed the prophecy and the chapter nearly tore itself apart. But the IH command structure is non-Codex; they are ruled by the Great Clan Council. The schismatics were therefore exiled. Now, keep in mind the IH philosophy of cutting away weakness. Basically, the schismatics were cast out for moral weakness. This is pretty much the deepest insult imaginable in their value system.

It all comes down to value systems. The IH cast out the schismatics not because of they value their own purity instead of some facile notion of greater nobility, a.k.a. the "brotherhood of Marines," but precisely because their brotherhood only has meaning when viewed through the lens of strict Mechanicus orthodoxy. Orthodoxy, purity -- these are the conditions of brotherhood. It's the same with the DA. The secret is not important on its own, but only through the lens of their fanatical loyalty to the Emperor and their Primarch. Preserving this honor is their most central value, the value by which all other values are measured. The life or death of individual Marines is nothing compared to that. It's the same for all Marines: why do they fight and die to protect the rest of the Imperium, which is pretty despicable and pathetic compared to themselves? The IH especially: why sacrifice their own lives of cultivating strength for the sake of the weak?

The reason is: it is a matter of honor. And this is also why the IH ruthlessly punish the weak even after the battle is done. And why the DA stridently keep their secret, regardless of even the internal collateral damage. A brother who does not die but is dishonored should rather be dead. And if he'd rather survive dishonored -- then he is by definition a traitor. That is the definition of the Fallen. The DA creed is that honor is more important than life and the force the Fallen to accept that.

Thanks - I guess I got it wrong off the cuff. But the example stands!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Thanks - I guess I got it wrong off the cuff.

Not totally. The central issue was probably the idea that Mars would fall to the Ecclesiarchy because the Adeptus Mechanicus does not purge those of their number who believe the Emperor is the Omnissiah. But the Martian fleets and armies did thoroughly wipe out the Moirae schismatics. Moirae itself was utterly destroyed. The last vestige of that schism is the chapter that became known as the Sons of Medusa. Why does Mars tolerate them? Because of their ancient treaties with Terra and Terra vetted the Sons of Medusa.

 Manchu wrote:
The IH was riven by the Moirae Schism. During the Nova Terra Interregnum, a group of Mechanicus adepts noted fluctuations in the Astronomican which they interpreted as prophetic message of the Omnissiah -- including the merging of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus. A massive civil war followed. Some of the IH Marines believed the prophecy and the chapter nearly tore itself apart. But the IH command structure is non-Codex; they are ruled by the Great Clan Council. The schismatics were therefore exiled. Now, keep in mind the IH philosophy of cutting away weakness. Basically, the schismatics were cast out for moral weakness. This is pretty much the deepest insult imaginable in their value system.

It all comes down to value systems. The IH cast out the schismatics not because they value their own purity instead of some facile notion of greater nobility, a.k.a. the "brotherhood of Marines," but precisely because their brotherhood only has meaning when viewed through the lens of strict Mechanicus orthodoxy. Orthodoxy, purity -- these are the conditions of brotherhood. It's the same with the DA. The secret is not important on its own, but only through the lens of their fanatical loyalty to the Emperor and their Primarch. Preserving this honor is their most central value, the value by which all other values are measured. The life or death of individual Marines is nothing compared to that. It's the same for all Marines: why do they fight and die to protect the rest of the Imperium, which is pretty despicable and pathetic compared to themselves? The IH especially: why sacrifice their own lives of cultivating strength for the sake of the weak?

The reason is: it is a matter of honor. And this is also why the IH ruthlessly punish the weak even after the battle is done. And why the DA stridently keep their secret, regardless of even the internal collateral damage. A brother who does not die but is dishonored should rather be dead. And if he'd rather survive dishonored -- then he is by definition a traitor. That is the definition of the Fallen. The DA creed is that honor is more important than life and they force the Fallen to accept that via Interrogator Chaplains.

That's fascinating and all but the point remains about the loyalty tree.

You have slightly changed the tone of the DAs from what they are and even what you've said before. At many Chapters core is duty, fanaticism or martial prowess. Your trying to make the Dark Angels theme vengeance and honour. But you know their central theme in secret shame. They will commit any completely honourless act to protect it.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
That's fascinating and all but

Okay, number one, if you want to be treated with respect don't act like this.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Your trying to make the Dark Angels theme vengeance and honour. But you know their central theme in secret shame. They will commit any completely honourless act to protect it.

Number two, if the DA were not obsessed with honor they would feel no shame. What are they ashamed of? That's right, dishonor.

For God's same man I'm not being sarcastic. It is fascinating, I find the Iron Hands fascinating and wouldn't mind having a whole other thread on this Moriae Schism but if we get into that here we'lll get majorally sidetracked.

Yes, the have a type of honour but it is not The Chivarous or Bushido style honour. It's the Pakistani Honour Killing type of honour. They are the types to murder their own to protect their rep.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I find the Iron Hands fascinating and wouldn't mind having a whole other thread on this Moriae Schism

You were there.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, the have a type of honour but it is not The Chivarous or Bushido style honour. It's the Pakistani Honour Killing type of honour. They are the types to murder their own to protect their rep.

What is the difference between the concept of honor that motivates ritual suicide and the kind of honor that motivates murder of family? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question, although I think it certainly should be one.

I was thinking more of the code of combat than the suicide thing. Actually I'm probably thinking of Klingons....

Anyway, what I'm saying is 99% of chapters wake up in the morning and think "how am I going to serve The Imperium today."

The Dark Angels wake up and think "how am I going to hunt The Fallen today".

Most Chapters are purposefully trying to win Imperial Battles. Imperial victories from Dark Angels actions are incidental to their true mission. They have "collateral victories"

That's overstating it. The DA go about the usual business of being Space Marines until they catch the scent of the Fallen.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I was thinking more of the code of combat than the suicide thing. Actually I'm probably thinking of Klingons....

Anyway, what I'm saying is 99% of chapters wake up in the morning and think "how am I going to serve The Imperium today."

The Dark Angels wake up and think "how am I going to hunt The Fallen today".

Most Chapters are purposefully trying to win Imperial Battles. Imperial victories from Dark Angels actions are incidental to their true mission. They have "collateral victories"

That's the Ravenwing line of thought. The regular Dark Angel is like a regular Space Marine, only even more secretive. Most in fact doesn't even know about the Fallen. That comes with age and position.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
I was thinking more of the code of combat than the suicide thing. Actually I'm probably thinking of Klingons....

Anyway, what I'm saying is 99% of chapters wake up in the morning and think "how am I going to serve The Imperium today."

The Dark Angels wake up and think "how am I going to hunt The Fallen today".

Most Chapters are purposefully trying to win Imperial Battles. Imperial victories from Dark Angels actions are incidental to their true mission. They have "collateral victories"

That's the Ravenwing line of thought. The regular Dark Angel is like a regular Space Marine, only even more secretive. Most in fact doesn't even know about the Fallen. That comes with age and position.

Am I being unfair to all Dark Angels? Yes. The majority of line Infantry don't know anything. Only the Inner Circle secretly moves 9 chapters around to pursue their secret agenda. Most of the Dark Angels just think they are smiting foes of The Emperor for the sake of smiting. Y'know acting like Space Marines.

Manchu,

I'm neither labeling anyone as a traitor nor exhonerating them, but I do have some questions for you and would appreciate it if you would share your perspective and perhaps clarify something for me.



Thanks!

Good questions -- and I think the answers lay in the questions themselves. In fact, they have the same answer.

In every Chapter, there is some knowledge which is only shared among the most trustworthy brothers. This is because knowledge is dangerous in 40k, even for Space Marines. In some cases, it is especially dangerous for Space Marines considering how much damage they do when they turn traitor. This "rule of the setting" certainly applies to the particular secret that the DA keep.

A large part of Space Marine psychology is built around a pseudo-mythological understanding of the galaxy. The enemies that strike from the Immaterium are not "Warp Xenos." No, they are daemons. For a Marine, honor is not just a matter of duty but also of faith. They aren't soldiers; they are warrior-monks. All of this is essential to SM morale. The life of a Space Marine is brutally difficult. For a normal person, it would be a terrible torture. These ideals of faith keep him going.

At the center of Space Marine morale is the Emperor himself, to whom they are connected via their Chapter History -- especially veneration of the Primarch (when they know who their Primarch is). In this way, the memory of the Horus Heresy -- the knowledge that some remained steadfast in their faith and overcame the darkness of treachery -- is very, very important to their discipline. Chapters that do not know their history are especially vulnerable to temptation for this reason. Think of the Blood Ravens.

The existence of the Fallen strikes at the heart of this principle. The doubt sewn by their lies is inimical to the psychology necessary to maintain loyalty against the challenges and strains of the life of a Space Marine. Only the most ruthlessly loyal Marines, the ones with the greatest will to serve the Emperor and honor the Primarch, can resist the temptation to explore that doubt to its bitter end. What if all of this is for nothing? What if it means nothing? Falling into that pit of despair means falling to Chaos.

So even those who successfully become Astartes, although they have endured many physical and mental trials to do so, may not have the moral fortitude to engage with such a secret. The foundation upon which they passed all those trials, after all, could be cracked by knowledge of that secret. Even hardened Interrogator Chaplains, as you point out, sense the doubt within themselves when they hear a man who should be their brother utter such a blasphemous insult to their deepest values.

Enlightenment!

Manchu,

Thank you for your in depth explanation as it clarifies a few questions that were rattling around inside my head.

To finalize - there is no way that this particular fallen (Astelan) could be honest about both his desire to support the emperor by continuing the "dream" of manifest destiny for mankind in the stars, and his claim that he didn't desire revenge even though he felt he had been betrayed first by the Lion?

Given any perceived contradiction between loyalty to the Emperor and loyalty to one's Primarch, there are only three possible explanations: (1) the Emperor is a traitor; (2) the Primarch is a traitor; or (3) the one with contradicting loyalties is a traitor.

The Fallen are so sad because they are so proud. For all the reasons I said above, faith is the cornerstone of Space Marie psychology. This applies even to the Fallen. They must explain their treachery somehow and since they dare not blame the Emperor, they blame the Lion. Pure denial. It is really a tragic state. The Interrogator Chaplains bring them to a vengeful salvation via torture, guiding them to the final realization that it is truly they themselves rather than the beloved Primarch who betrayed the Imperium.

It's beautiful in a sick way. But that's 40k for you.

What of the Fallen that just found himself on the wrong side of a war and doesn't blame anyone? Is it really worth so much effort to hunt him across the galaxy and torture him to death?

It's a matter of blind unrepenting honor, nothing else.

Remember there is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
It's a matter of blind unrepenting honor, nothing else.

Remember there is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

Of course, but that includes the accuser.

Then you must see that the Fallen, worshiping chaos or not must be brought to justice. That's the only way for the Unforgiven to become forgiven. This is a clear case of what it says on the tin.

Manchu,

Thanks again!

I've been clawing my way halfhazardly through both the 40k and HH books. Having read only about 25 of the novels, I realize I have some fairly glaring gaps in my "knowledge". I feel I may have been a little lost myself and was seeing grey even when it appears there's no room for it; the 40k world is more black and white. And the possibility that some authors possess the ability to "humanize" the devil may be where my view has been skewed, lol!

And that's why another perspective helps. Thanks!

Cheers, Starscream. I love a good fluff question. It's true that 40k is really black and white but they dress it up as grey to make you doubt and rethink everything. I don't mind. Gives me something to discuss.

More "grey and black" I'd say.

Yeah, not black and white in terms of evil and good. More like, the issues are clear. Whether or not it's "good" to wipe out a planet, it can be necessary. That kind of clarity is more elusive IRL.

Yes, thankfully it's not so clear irl if blowing up a planet is a good idea. I think sometimes it's not so clear in 40K either.

Usually blowing up a planet is not something done lightly. I mean the IOM have only about 1 million worlds. So if they carelessly wastes their worlds, they will soon end up with only Earth.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
Usually blowing up a planet is not something done lightly. I mean the IOM have only about 1 million worlds. So if they carelessly wastes their worlds, they will soon end up with only Earth.

Until they blow her too...