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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

The "Fallen living out their lives as rice farmers" is old fluff which has not been really revisited.

Most examples that we currently have of The Fallen are individuals who are leading warbands of renegades/cultists on Imperial worlds or have gone on to join warbands of Legionnaires from the Heresy.
Arkos the Faithless of the Alpha Legion, the key target of the Dark Angels during the Siege of Vraks, was hinted at being a member of The Fallen.

It doesn't matter if it's old.

Actually KC, it does. A lot of the old fluff gets reprinted just because they need filler. In the case of "Fallen rice farmers" it is old stuff that was valid under the previous bits of fluff, but not entirely validated yet by the way the Horus Heresy is playing out.

In the "old" fluff, there was room for the followers to simply have been duped by Luther. There is no longer that.

Obviously, books about military campaigns are going to focus more on Fallen who are actively anti-throne. Arkos was an Alpha Legionaire who might have known something about The Fallen. There was no proof of that but the DAs just assume that Chaos Marines are always a good lead on The Fallen info which they are.

Actually the Dark Angels assume that Arkos the Faithless is a good lead because of the fact that he had been sighted with a member of The Fallen prior to Vraks.

The Dark Angels don't just pick names out of a hat. The Ravenwing's entire job is to track The Fallen, and not just on the battlefield. For all intents and purposes they are an intelligence network.

Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Heh.

That's not even remotely true.
The Badab War was the result of Loyalists putting "the good of the Imperium and their Brother-Astartes above all".
The Space Wolves nearly coming to blows with the Inquisition over the Second Armageddon War is from them putting "the good of the Imperium and its citizens above all".
All of the various Loyalists have their tipping points. The only difference is that with the Dark Angels their tipping point is based upon an event which took place during one of the most desperate timeframes of the Imperium.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Wow, that's super wrong. Just about all the chapters can be said to be pursuing their own agenda. What makes the DA stand out is that they don't assume their agenda is synonymous with "the good of the Imperium." You can imagine Azrael saying to Calgar, "did you ever stop to think that your little empire is just vanity?" Damn that would be a good story.

What if both of them are good ???

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Wow, that's super wrong. Just about all the chapters can be said to be pursuing their own agenda. What makes the DA stand out is that they don't assume their agenda is synonymous with "the good of the Imperium." You can imagine Azrael saying to Calgar, "did you ever stop to think that your little empire is just vanity?" Damn that would be a good story.

You also have the Iron Hands. They are in my book more servants of AdMech than IOM. They are quite cold-blooded as well, their battle-cry says more than enough.

But i agree the notion you wrote about Azrael stating that to Calgar would be fun, especially with the many colors I imagine Calgar's face would take.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
There's still nuance. Some Fallen are living out their lives as rice farmers. They want nothing to do with the galaxy. The Unforgiven go around screwing up carefully planned military campaigns to make sure those guys get tortured to death.

The "Fallen living out their lives as rice farmers" is old fluff which has not been really revisited.

Most examples that we currently have of The Fallen are individuals who are leading warbands of renegades/cultists on Imperial worlds or have gone on to join warbands of Legionnaires from the Heresy.
Arkos the Faithless of the Alpha Legion, the key target of the Dark Angels during the Siege of Vraks, was hinted at being a member of The Fallen.

It doesn't matter if it's old.

Actually KC, it does. A lot of the old fluff gets reprinted just because they need filler. In the case of "Fallen rice farmers" it is old stuff that was valid under the previous bits of fluff, but not entirely validated yet by the way the Horus Heresy is playing out.

In the "old" fluff, there was room for the followers to simply have been duped by Luther. There is no longer that.

Obviously, books about military campaigns are going to focus more on Fallen who are actively anti-throne. Arkos was an Alpha Legionaire who might have known something about The Fallen. There was no proof of that but the DAs just assume that Chaos Marines are always a good lead on The Fallen info which they are.

Actually the Dark Angels assume that Arkos the Faithless is a good lead because of the fact that he had been sighted with a member of The Fallen prior to Vraks.

The Dark Angels don't just pick names out of a hat. The Ravenwing's entire job is to track The Fallen, and not just on the battlefield. For all intents and purposes they are an intelligence network.

Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Heh.

That's not even remotely true.
The Badab War was the result of Loyalists putting "the good of the Imperium and their Brother-Astartes above all".
The Space Wolves nearly coming to blows with the Inquisition over the Second Armageddon War is from them putting "the good of the Imperium and its citizens above all".
All of the various Loyalists have their tipping points. The only difference is that with the Dark Angels their tipping point is based upon an event which took place during one of the most desperate timeframes of the Imperium.

We've talked about this before. Fluff doesn't have and expiry date. It's canon until retconned.

As for your Badab War and Space Wolves comments you seem to be agreeing with me.



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 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

Wow, that's super wrong. Just about all the chapters can be said to be pursuing their own agenda. What makes the DA stand out is that they don't assume their agenda is synonymous with "the good of the Imperium." You can imagine Azrael saying to Calgar, "did you ever stop to think that your little empire is just vanity?" Damn that would be a good story.

Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

The Dark Angels agenda is "protect our secret." Note how they're the only ones with a secret agenda.

@Kanluwen SW clash with the "I" was in the first war for armageddon...

Also is there a book where fallen are portrayed as true chaos marines?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

That's certainly what they claim.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

That's certainly what they claim.

Whatever that means. The point is: That's certainly what they believe. Of course opinions will vary on what's best for The Imperium but they are carry out their duties in good faith. The same can't be said of The Unforgiven.

It's very clear what that means. Chapters like the Black Templars are delusional. They're on their little vengeance quest and they dress it up as "for the Emperor!" The UM tend their little garden of Ultramar and it's all "for the Emperor!" The Space Wolves do whatever they want "for the Emperor!" The DA do what they do "for the Emperor" as much as any other chapter pursues its own agenda "for the Emperor." Blotting out the stain on their honor, their Primarch's honor, and ultimately the honor of the Emperor himself is certainly not treacherous. Space Marines come to blows with their brother chapters over far, far less.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

That's certainly what they claim.

Whatever that means. The point is: That's certainly what they believe. Of course opinions will vary on what's best for The Imperium but they are carry out their duties in good faith. The same can't be said of The Unforgiven.

The Unforgiven believes they must first be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor. Sorry that's for me is a direct statement that they have the IOM best interest at heart, but they are so ruthless in their pursuit that they might even eliminate friendlies. Like a certain incident proved with the Black Templars.

 Manchu wrote:
It's very clear what that means. Chapters like the Black Templars are delusional. They're on their little vengeance quest and they dress it up as "for the Emperor!" The UM tend their little garden of Ultramar and it's all "for the Emperor!" The Space Wolves do whatever they want "for the Emperor!" The DA do what they do "for the Emperor" as much as any other chapter pursues its own agenda "for the Emperor." Blotting out the stain on their honor, their Primarch's honor, and ultimately the honor of the Emperor himself is certainly not treacherous. Space Marines come to blows with their brother chapters over far, far less.

Do you even believe what you arguing? Because you're starting to sound like Melissia. Are you honestly saying the Ultramarines and Space Wolves don't really care about wellbeing of The Imperium and its citizens?


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 Beaviz81 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor".

That's certainly what they claim.

Whatever that means. The point is: That's certainly what they believe. Of course opinions will vary on what's best for The Imperium but they are carry out their duties in good faith. The same can't be said of The Unforgiven.

The Unforgiven believes they must first be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor. Sorry that's for me is a direct statement that they have the IOM best interest at heart, but they are so ruthless in their pursuit that they might even eliminate friendlies. Like a certain incident proved with the Black Templars.

No The Black Templars believe they must be redeemed. The Dark Angels just want to protect their secret. The secret comes first. Before everything and anything. Even the lives of their own Brother-Marines.

No, I'm saying that you have a very uncomplicated view of loyalty which doesn't fit at all with the GrimDark.

Astartes are forever getting into trouble fighting other Imperial institution including other chapters. They all justify it with their loyalty to this, that, or the other concept of the Emperor and the Imperium.

You know this. It's obvious. The example of the SW telling the Inq. to feth off has already been brought up. You're saying the DA are an exception while everyone else gets a pass.

What's more important to Marneus Calgar: the fall of Armegeddon or the fall of some world in Ultramar? For the Emperor indeed.


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 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The secret comes first. Before everything and anything.

Oh for heaven's sake, pause for two seconds and ask yourself why that is the case. The secret is important because it's the very hinge of their loyalty. They are tracking down these traitors BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES ARE LOYAL. If they were also traitors or didn't care about the Impeirum then they would live and let live. "The Fallen? Who cares, we're all Fallen."

 Manchu wrote:
No, I'm saying that you have a very uncomplicated view of loyalty which doesn't fit at all with the GrimDark.

Astartes are forever getting into trouble fighting other Imperial institution including other chapters. They all justify it with their loyalty to this, that, or the other concept of the Emperor and the Imperium.

You know this. It's obvious. The example of the SW telling the Inq. to feth off has already been brought up. You're saying the DA are an exception while everyone else gets a pass.

What's more important to Marneus Calgar: the fall of Armegeddon or the fall of some world in Ultramar? For the Emperor indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The secret comes first. Before everything and anything.

Oh for heaven's sake, pause for two seconds and ask yourself why that is the case. The secret is important because it's the very hinge of their loyalty. They are tracking down these traitors BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES ARE LOYAL. If they were also traitors or didn't care about the Impeirum then they would live and let live. "The Fallen? Who cares, we're all Fallen."

Ya, I guess it is pretty simple. The other Chapters fight for The Emperor while the Dark Angels fight for their reputation.

Yeah, the SW would gladly go to war with the Inquisition "for the Emperor." You're on to something. Or maybe just on something.

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, the SW would gladly go to war with the Inquisition "for the Emperor." You're on to something. Or maybe just on something.

Yes, once again you bring up The Inquisition as if it were synonymous with Imperium or Humanity. A good example of an organization with more individuals working on their own personal agenda than the Dark Angels is The Inquisition.

You say I have a simplistic view of loyalty? Your only criteria seems to be whether or not a group has been at odds with The Inquisition.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
A good example of an organization with more individuals working on their own personal agenda than the Dark Angels is The Inquisition.

And yet it is the ultimate authority in the Imperium because its authority is sanctioned by the Emperor himself. So the very word of the Emperor is not enough to bring the SW to heel because they are so ... loyal? Or perhaps loyalty is more complicated than all the departments in the office getting along? Yes, I think that's the answer.

All Astartes fight primary for the Emperor, all in their own way.

Templars are on never ending Crusade to prove their loyalty and to keep the Great Crusade alive ( minus the Imperial Truth ).

Wolves are also on a mission to help whatever Imperial military force in need of assistance, like the Raven Guard.

Ultramarines are protecting the Imperium by providing 60% of all Space Marine chapters while maintaining their own little empire to protect the Imperium's back.

Dark Angels are something else, they are providing assistance to every Imperial Organization but they put Fallen as priority because if any Fallen is to ever spoke to some Imperial officials their chapter would be tainted forever and in worst case maybe even declared traitors and purged. That is why their secret is so important to them, to keep their purity and also to prove their loyalty by capturing all fallen and make them repent for their crimes before the news about their betrayal leaks.
The only problem with this is the fact that they are living sometimes very important battles ( 13'th Black Crusade ) to investigate any rumors about fallen.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
A good example of an organization with more individuals working on their own personal agenda than the Dark Angels is The Inquisition.

And yet it is the ultimate authority in the Imperium because its authority is sanctioned by the Emperor himself. So the very word of the Emperor is not enough to bring the SW to heel because they are so ... loyal? Or perhaps loyalty is more complicated than all the departments in the office getting along? Yes, I think that's the answer.

Really Manchu? So 100% of Inquisitors are 100% loyal to The Emperor?

I always wondered why everything worked so smoothly amongst them all.


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 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
All Astartes fight primary for the Emperor, all in their own way.

Templars are on never ending Crusade to prove their loyalty and to keep the Great Crusade alive ( minus the Imperial Truth ).

Wolves are also on a mission to help whatever Imperial military force in need of assistance, like the Raven Guard.

Ultramarines are protecting the Imperium by providing 60% of all Space Marine chapters while maintaining their own little empire to protect the Imperium's back.

Dark Angels are something else, they are providing assistance to every Imperial Organization but they put Fallen as priority because if any Fallen is to ever spoke to some Imperial officials their chapter would be tainted forever and in worst case maybe even declared traitors and purged. That is why their secret is so important to them, to keep their purity and also to prove their loyalty by capturing all fallen and make them repent for their crimes before the news about their betrayal leaks.
The only problem with this is the fact that they are living sometimes very important battles ( 13'th Black Crusade ) to investigate any rumors about fallen.

Correct. Except other Chapters have had traitors fall to Chaos and not been purged. Entire chapters have found themselves on the wrong side of The Imperium like in the Badab war and been brought back into the fold. The Space Wolves even ticked of The Inquistion.
They do what they do not out of a justifiable fear of The Imperium but because they are ashamed.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Really Manchu? So 100% of Inquisitors are 100% loyal to The Emperor?

Your response has literally nothing to do with what I wrote and you quoted.

You say the DA are questionable because they'll come to blows with other Marines over the issue of the Fallen.

I'm telling you that many, many chapters come to blows with other Imperial institutions, including the Inquisition (who explicitly operate on the Emperor's own authority) and other Marines, for all kinds of reasons and usually with some rationalization about honor and loyalty to back it up.

And yet somehow you still manage to think the DA are unique in coming into conflict with other loyal Imperial forces.

I'm sorry KC, I cannot help you to understand the obvious any better than I already have.

 Manchu wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Really Manchu? So 100% of Inquisitors are 100% loyal to The Emperor?

Your response has literally nothing to do with what I wrote and you quoted.

You say the DA are questionable because they'll come to blows with other Marines over the issue of the Fallen.

I'm telling you that many, many chapters come to blows with other Imperial institutions, including the Inquisition (who explicitly operate on the Emperor's own authority) and other Marines, for all kinds of reasons and usually with some rationalization about honor and loyalty to back it up.

When did I say that? Lately you take other people's points and argue them against me.

 Manchu wrote:
You say the DA are questionable because they'll come to blows with other Marines over the issue of the Fallen.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
When did I say that?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels just want to protect their secret. The secret comes first. Before everything and anything. Even the lives of their own Brother-Marines.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor". The Dark Angels agenda is "protect our secret."

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Lately you take other people's points and argue them against me.

At least one of us reads your posts.

How about "all Astartes are traitors in their own special way?"

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How about "all Astartes are traitors in their own special way?"

Which ways? The loyalists are loyal, but in their way. The Ultras is the exemplar chapter but loyal mostly to themselves. The Dark Angels behaves likes some wrestler obsessed to wipe clean a secret shame. The Iron Hands are more loyal to AdMech than IOM. The Raven Guard used forbidden technology during the Horus Heresy which are biting them in their ass now. The Space Wolves are hated by the inquisition. The Imperial Fists are the nicest Space Marines, but their stone-faced exterior means no-one would write about them. The Salamanders are frequently confused with Mauraders of Starcraft II. The White Scars are only interesting for the 100 Mongol players of the game. The Blood Angels is obsessed about the demise of their primarch in a very unhealthy manner.

Everyone has traits and weaknesses which appeal to different sort of people. But I won't call them traitors.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How about "all Astartes are traitors in their own special way?"

Which ways? The loyalists are loyal, but in their way. The Ultras is the exemplar chapter but loyal mostly to themselves. The Dark Angels behaves likes some wrestler obsessed to wipe clean a secret shame. The Iron Hands are more loyal to AdMech than IOM. The Raven Guard used forbidden technology during the Horus Heresy which are biting them in their ass now. The Space Wolves are hated by the inquisition. The Imperial Fists are the nicest Space Marines, but their stone-faced exterior means no-one would write about them. The Salamanders are frequently confused with Mauraders of Starcraft II. The White Scars are only interesting for the 100 Mongol players of the game. The Blood Angels is obsessed about the demise of their primarch in a very unhealthy manner.

Everyone has traits and weaknesses which appeal to different sort of people. But I won't call them traitors.

It was more of a joke post, but as a Guard player, most Marines are traitors or at least heretics for the same reason mutants are - they have impure geanseed in many cases.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How about "all Astartes are traitors in their own special way?"

Which ways? The loyalists are loyal, but in their way. The Ultras is the exemplar chapter but loyal mostly to themselves. The Dark Angels behaves likes some wrestler obsessed to wipe clean a secret shame. The Iron Hands are more loyal to AdMech than IOM. The Raven Guard used forbidden technology during the Horus Heresy which are biting them in their ass now. The Space Wolves are hated by the inquisition. The Imperial Fists are the nicest Space Marines, but their stone-faced exterior means no-one would write about them. The Salamanders are frequently confused with Mauraders of Starcraft II. The White Scars are only interesting for the 100 Mongol players of the game. The Blood Angels is obsessed about the demise of their primarch in a very unhealthy manner.

Everyone has traits and weaknesses which appeal to different sort of people. But I won't call them traitors.

It was more of a joke post, but as a Guard player, most Marines are traitors or at least heretics for the same reason mutants are - they have impure geanseed in many cases.

I love the guard myself. I basically thinks the IOM without the Imperial Guard would simply just rapidly collapse. Without the Space Marines. Confederacy anno 1864. Ineffective, but still able to defend itself. Thousands of guardsmen go into the trenches for every Space Marine. They are just overlooked.

 Manchu wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You say the DA are questionable because they'll come to blows with other Marines over the issue of the Fallen.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
When did I say that?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Quite simply, The Unforgiven are the only Loyalist Marines that put "other priorites" than the good of The Imperium and their Brother-Marines above all. That what makes them different

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Dark Angels just want to protect their secret. The secret comes first. Before everything and anything. Even the lives of their own Brother-Marines.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Because every other Chapter's "agenda" is "Fighting for The Emperor". The Dark Angels agenda is "protect our secret."

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Lately you take other people's points and argue them against me.

At least one of us reads your posts.

Ah, I see the confusion. I'm not talking about other chapters. I'm talking about within the Dark Angels themselves. The Dark Angels have the dubious distinction of turning on their own chapter mates. so great is the need for secrecy.
I know sometimes I'm not clear so please try to converse with me instead of just being disrespectful.

This thread had so much potential, unfortunately all I found was thread bullying. Bravo to the Dakka members that have managed to remain civil.

 Byte wrote:
This thread had so much potential, unfortunately all I found was thread bullying. Bravo to the Dakka members that have managed to remain civil.

How does it have that? Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
This thread had so much potential, unfortunately all I found was thread bullying. Bravo to the Dakka members that have managed to remain civil.

How does it have that? Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

The elitist opinions and "view down the nose" approach of points are just hard on the palate. I guess I'm just to grounded.

 Byte wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 Byte wrote:
This thread had so much potential, unfortunately all I found was thread bullying. Bravo to the Dakka members that have managed to remain civil.

How does it have that? Basically it's a contest between the ones that believes the words of Fallen Angels, vs the ones that believes the word of the Unforgiven. I basically took it to be how they have chronicled it. And the Fallen Angels ain't really reliable witnesses at best, but sure some might have been suffering under the lies of Luther. And thought they were defending in the name of the Emperor, but Nurgle had a vested interest in Caliban and Luther. So in the end they were traitors, and the Unforgiven just want a clean slate and that can't happen unless they hunt down each and everyone of the Fallen. That's pretty much etched in stone.

The elitist opinions and "view down the nose" approach of points are just hard on the palate. I guess I'm just to grounded.

To a certain point I agree, but the people going up against fluff here go up with the backing of basically blatant liars who are trying to justify their conduct. But some thinks could be handled more politely like Manchu's quarrels, even though I agree with his points. And the guys he has argued with haven't been a hair better.

Still my point is standing, the people telling me that they think the Dark Angels betrayed Empy is basically loons for me, it's the same with the viewpoint some have about Lion being purely evil, while I think of him as good is not nice. Their sources are Fallen Angels and no-one have bothered answering that accusation. And they are not reliable as witnesses, and taking another viewpoint than what's etched in stone in this case is dangerous and belongs to Dakka Fiction, not Background.