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At this point I don't think anyone is going to change their mind. I'm in the camp that he can join marked units - it can be supported by RAW and is RAI. That's HIWPI.

The rules cannot be asking "Does the unit have any Mark that differs from any of the IC's Marks?" That produces illogical conclusions (A unit with the Mark of Tzeentch and Nurgle could not be joined by an IC with the Mark of Tzeentch and Nurgle, as both Marks are different than the other Mark).
The rule is asking "Does the unit contain a Mark that the Independent Character does not have?" With only four Marks, and Abbadon having all four, there can never be a "No" answer. It's asking "Does the unit contain a different Mark", not "Are the units and the IC's Marks different?" A subtle difference, but an important one.

Deathreaper, it is a good analogy. Berserkers do not have a different mark than abbadon. What you are talking about is abbadon having a different mark than berserkers.

Apples can go in a fruit bin, but not all fruit can go in an apple bin. Order is important. The logic for sets was even posted by some one else.

For example, 2 oranges are different than 1 orange. Quantity is different. But you don't have a different fruit.

4 marks are different than 1 mark in quantity. But berserkers do not have a different kind of mark than those 4.

If I have bread and cheese, and want a different food, you are saying I should have bread, because bread is different than cheese. That is wrong. To get a different food, it must be different from my set.

DevianID wrote:
Berserkers do not have a different mark than abbadon.

Really? so the zerkers MoK is not different than Abby's MoN?

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

The Character has mark of nurgle, do the unit of zerkers have a different mark? (Yes)

Abby has MoN, and all three other marks.

If Abby tries to join a marked unit we find that the unit indeed does have a different Mark of Chaos than the lord, as the lord has MoN, MoT, MoS and MoK, where the unit just has MoK. so the unit has a different mark than any of the three MoN, MoT, MoS so the IC can not join him.

I am not sure I can explain the RAW any better.

Deathreaper, read my above post. Abbadon has bread and cheese. He wants a different food. According to your incorrect logic, you would give abbadon bread.

Again analogies are never a good way to figure out a rule set.

Is the Zerkers MoK different than Abby's MoN?

You have the RAW right. You have the logic wrong.

In the set of {W,X,Y,Z}, Abby has {W,X,Y,Z}. Bezerkers have {W}. The question the restriction asks is "Does the set of {W} contain any elements that the set of {W,X,Y,Z} does not have?" The question is not whether or not the sets are equivalent, but whether or not the unit set contains any elements which are not part of the IC set. If the unit set was {W,Z} and the IC set was {Z}, the IC could not join. But if the unit set was {W,Z} and the IC set was {W,X,Z}, the IC could join.

That is not what it says.

It says "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

The unit has X, Abby has W,X,Y,Z

Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?

If yes he can not join that unit.

It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

kaisshau wrote:
It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

Is it? Please provide proof that it does mean the latter.

The logic was already listed several times. Read the bread and cheese set again.

DevianID wrote:
The logic was already listed several times. Read the bread and cheese set again.

That's not what I asked, and actually the analogy only serves to confuse rather than explain. It's like the birds and the bees... your Abaddon is going through all sorts of weird changes, he's getting bulkier (bloated?), he's angrier, and possibly sexier and now you have to tell Abby to filter all of this information through the metaphor of interspecies poon-tang...

kaisshau wrote:
It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

X is different than W,X,Y, and Z

X does not = W,X,Y,Z

Therefore different.

If the rule were to say "An IC may not join a squad if he has a different Mark", then Abaddon would be precluded from joining. The sentence asks "Does the unit have a Mark that the IC doesn't have." Any other interpretation produces illogical consequences. Because, that would mean that it would answer the question "Is {W,Z} different from {W,Z}?" With "Yes", which is obviously incorrect.

 DeathReaper wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

X is different than W,X,Y, and Z

X does not = W,X,Y,Z

Therefore different.

That logic makes sense

also posted from the other Abby thread on this page:

kaisshau wrote:
The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not a Mark of Chaos

By Kaisshau's own words... Does this mean that Abaddon is really an unmarked Chaos lord and just has the benefits from all 4 of the marks? And thus can join any unit he pleases? No wait, it doesn't because it specifically says he has all 4 of the marks lol...

Again that is not what it says.

It says "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

Abbadon has MoN, the unit has MoK

Does the unit have a different Mark of Chaos than Abby?

kaisshau wrote:
If the rule were to say "An IC may not join a squad if he has a different Mark", then Abaddon would be precluded from joining. The sentence asks "Does the unit have a Mark that the IC doesn't have." Any other interpretation produces illogical consequences. Because, that would mean that it would answer the question "Is {W,Z} different from {W,Z}?" With "Yes", which is obviously incorrect.

We're not comparing that though we're comparing the fact that Abaddon has w,x,y,z and is trying to join a unit of x. w != x, y != x, z != x, but x = x. But that's comparing the IC to the unit he's trying to join. The check is on the Unit's mark. So x != w, y, or z, but x = x which means that he still has 3 marks that don't match.


As I've stated, I don't care how you play it as I don't run abby or run my marked HQs in units that aren't marked. But as it stands RAW says there is no way abby can join with cult or marked units. He's only allowed to join unmarked units.

Same thing I posted in the other thread:
Abaddon has all four Marks of Chaos. Abaddon has no Marks of Chaos listed in his profile. "Has" != "listed". This rule, however, asks if he has one.

On this front, when comparing this way, X is no different from X,Y,Z, or W,X, or X,X,X, or even A,B,C,...,X,Y,Z. If it was, X,Y would then be different from X,Y, because X is different from Y, and Y is different from X.

For every time that Abaddon has mark x he also has marks w, y, and z, which will ALWAYS be different.

His mark of nurgle will never ever be a mark of khorne.

 DeathReaper wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
It's not "Is X different than W,X,Y, or Z?" It's "Is X different than W,X,Y, and Z?"

X is different than W,X,Y, and Z

X does not = W,X,Y,Z

Therefore different.

W,X,Y,Z = W,X,Y,Z

Either you agree with rigeld2, which would be saying that W,X,Y,Z != W,X,Y,Z
-or-
You are applying a different standard to depending on whether the squad has just 1 mark or all of them.

It doesn't matter since he also has the same mark. We can all agree now be has four marks, not a mark.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It doesn't matter since he also has the same mark. We can all agree now be has four marks, not a mark.

No, what doesn't matter is that he has the same mark.

What does matter is that he has different marks.

The rule isn't that you can only join a squad if you have the same mark, its that you cannot join if you have a different mark.

Abaddon will always have a different mark.

He always has the same mark as well. It goes both ways.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
He always has the same mark as well. It goes both ways.

Again, the same mark doesn't matter. its not part of the rule.

An Unmarked character can join a marked unit because he doesn't have a different mark. A guy with the MoK can join Bezerkers because he doesn't have a different mark.

Grey templar, it does not say "what does matter is if he has different marks" like you said. What matters is if the unit has different marks. You changed who must be different, which keeps preventing you from getting the rule right.

According to your faulty logic, kharns mark of khorne would be different from berserkers mark of khorne, because they are on different characters. After all, your apple is different from my apple, but they are the same fruit. Context is important when discussing sets and what is different from what.

The mistake keeps coming up because we are talking about sets and kinds of marks.

Also grey templar, a unit with a mark does have a different mark than an unmarked character. However the rule only applies to an ic with a mark, which is why unmarked characters can joined marked units.

The unit has MoK, as Abby has MoN Are those the same or are those different.

It is an easy question to answer.

Ok, so I wrote it weirdly with kharn, big deal, the rest are written correctly... Including Abaddon...

DevianID wrote:
Grey templar, it does not say "what does matter is if he has different marks" like you said. What matters is if the unit has different marks. You changed who must be different, which keeps preventing you from getting the rule right.

According to your faulty logic, kharns mark of khorne would be different from berserkers mark of khorne, because they are on different characters. After all, your apple is different from my apple, but they are the same fruit. Context is important when discussing sets and what is different from what.

The mistake keeps coming up because we are talking about sets and kinds of marks.

To elaborate upon Grey Templar's point, an unmarked lord can always join a marked unit because he doesn't have a Mark of Chaos to compare and as such will never have a different mark, just like a Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne can always join a unit with the Mark of Khorne because no matter how you slice it the unit will never have a different mark from the Chaos Lord with Mark of Khorne.

By that same vein, Abaddon can always join an unmarked unit because while he does have all four Marks of Chaos, the unit doesn't have a Mark of Chaos to compare and as such will never have a different mark from Abaddon. Abaddon can not join a unit with the Mark of Khorne because no matter how you slice it, the will always have at 3 marks that are different from Abaddon.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The unit has MoK, as Abby has MoN Are those the same or are those different.

It is an easy question to answer.

This folks, can't joined marked squads, RAW. This is color-by-number rules. How are you messing this up?

kaisshau wrote:
The rules cannot be asking "Does the unit have any Mark that differs from any of the IC's Marks?" That produces illogical conclusions (A unit with the Mark of Tzeentch and Nurgle could not be joined by an IC with the Mark of Tzeentch and Nurgle, as both Marks are different than the other Mark)....

Which is irrelevant, since there is no such unit in the game.