Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The rule say a character with A mark. Abbadon has four marks so it doesn't apply to him. That is totally RAW too.

"A" need not be limiting to "a single" or "one".

Having 4 marks means you do, indeed, have A mark. Nothing stops you having A mark by having 4.

Case yet again disproven, waiting for this to be aignored by certain posters again

It is illegal to carry a pistol.

I guess I'm safe - I'm carrying 4.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is illegal to carry a pistol.

I guess I'm safe - I'm carrying 4.

+1 Internet to this guy.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is illegal to carry a pistol.

I guess I'm safe - I'm carrying 4.

Actually, to avoid ambiguities, those laws are normally written "one or more" or "any", not "a".
Has no one addressed giving a champion "a gift of mutation"? So I am safe to give him four then, right?

kaisshau wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It is illegal to carry a pistol.

I guess I'm safe - I'm carrying 4.

Actually, to avoid ambiguities, those laws are normally written "one or more" or "any", not "a".
Has no one addressed giving a champion "a gift of mutation"? So I am safe to give him four then, right?

I believe that has been covered plenty, but by some peoples interpretation you can lol. ALthough the consensus is obviously that does not work!

Sorry abbadon. No marked units for you!

My question is, why does "a" in the gift of mutation option mean only one, but the "a" in the Marks of Chaos means more than one?

kaisshau wrote:
My question is, why does "a" in the gift of mutation option mean only one, but the "a" in the Marks of Chaos means more than one?

You're only allowed to buy "a gift of mutation", so once you've bought it you've already bought "a gift of mutation". You don't have permission to buy it more than once, so you can't. Conversely, Abaddon has a Mark of Chaos.

Are you agreeing with me then, that "a" always means "one"?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
My question is, why does "a" in the gift of mutation option mean only one, but the "a" in the Marks of Chaos means more than one?

You're only allowed to buy "a gift of mutation", so once you've bought it you've already bought "a gift of mutation". You don't have permission to buy it more than once, so you can't. Conversely, Abaddon has a Mark of Chaos.

By that note, aren't you only allowed to buy "a mark of chaos"? I don't have my codex on me, but I believe I'm not allowed to have a Nurgle/Slaaneshi marked Lord...

No, you buy a specific Mark from the Mark of Chaos list - a Mark of Nurgle, etc.

rigeld2 wrote:
No, you buy a specific Mark from the Mark of Chaos list - a Mark of Nurgle, etc.

But I still can't purchase more than one mark correct?

Correct - the Lords entry specifies single.

kaisshau wrote:
Are you agreeing with me then, that "a" always means "one"?

No, did you not read my post? Abaddon has a Mark of Chaos, but you're not allowed to buy more than one Gift of Mutation since you don't have permission to buy more than one. You're allowed to take a Gift of Mutation; when going from no Gifts to A Gift it's OK, but if you try to buy another you'd run into the fact that you've already purchased a Gift of Mutation and as such aren't allowed to buy another.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

kaisshau wrote:
Are you agreeing with me then, that "a" always means "one"?

No, did you not read my post? Abaddon has a Mark of Chaos, but you're not allowed to buy more than one Gift of Mutation since you don't have permission to buy more than one. You're allowed to take a Gift of Mutation; when going from no Gifts to A Gift it's OK, but if you try to buy another you'd run into the fact that you've already purchased a Gift of Mutation and as such aren't allowed to buy another.

The same holds true with the marks of chaos though. You can't go and buy a second mark of chaos, because you've already purchased a mark. Abaddon breaks that rule with a mark that cannot be purchased. Though by that line of thought, Abaddon could only ever join unmarked units since no one else could purchase a Mark of Chaos Ascendant. Which to be fair is the RAW interpretation.

I'd just like a solid answer so I know if I'm putting Abby with unmarked termies, or if I can spice things up in his life.

Abbadon doesn't have a "Mark of Chaos". The Mark of Chaos Ascendant is not listed on page 91, 30, or 104. It is completely separate and distinct from a "Mark of Chaos". Thus, that mark specifically is not dealt with by the restrictions on page 30.

It comes down to this. Is having four Marks of Chaos the same as having "a" Mark of Chaos? If yes, then I can purchase multiple gifts of mutation for a champion. If "a" equals four when determining marks, "a" equals four when determining if I purchased "a" gift of mutation. Most other options say "a single" or "up to one/two/four". This is one of the only upgrades that doesn't. It doesn't say, as Melta-bombs do, that the champion "may take gift of mutation", or, as Warp Talons have "take up to two gifts of mutation", or, as lords have for Marks, "may take a single Mark of Chaos". If I take four gifts of mutation, have I taken "a gift of mutation"? If Abaddon has "a Mark of Chaos", then I have taken "a gift of mutation".

Except the rules for it are "He has all 4 Marks" which would put us back to where he will always have a different Mark from any marked unit.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except the rules for it are "He has all 4 Marks" which would put us back to where he will always have a different Mark from any marked unit.

Yes, but the restriction on Pg. 30 says "Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos". If "a" means one and only one, it doesn't apply to Abaddon. If "a" means at least one, then purchasing "a" gift of mutation, 4 (or 40) times is allowed.

kaisshau wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except the rules for it are "He has all 4 Marks" which would put us back to where he will always have a different Mark from any marked unit.

Yes, but the restriction on Pg. 30 says "Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos". If "a" means one and only one, it doesn't apply to Abaddon. If "a" means at least one, then purchasing "a" gift of mutation, 4 (or 40) times is allowed.

"a" in this case doesn't mean if the Character has one mark. It means if he has a mark.

Does abbaddon have a mark? yes, in fact he has all 4 marks.


Do I own a car?

Yes, in fact I own 2 cars!

A character with only one mark obviously doesn't have multiples while on the other hand Abbadon has more then one... So the rule doesn't apply to him. I doubt few people will play it that he can't join a marked squad nor do I believe that was the intent.

Again, you have zero evidence that the rule only applies to a character with one mark. The context of the sentence is clear that it applies to Abbaddon.

It may have been unintentional but the english is quite clear on this.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A character with only one mark obviously doesn't have multiples while on the other hand Abbadon has more then one... So the rule doesn't apply to him. I doubt few people will play it that he can't join a marked squad nor do I believe that was the intent.

"A" means at least one singulr item, but as another poster provided,
Do you. Have a computer?
Yes, i have two of them.

That is a legal usage of the wording. Now, abbadon has 4 marks. The unit has 1. Does abbadon have "at least one" mark? Yes he does, he has four, three of which are different than the units. So he can not join.

This is silly, to be honest. I have already posted the answer to this topic and there are numerous other thrrads covering it. I would like to request a mod or someone close this one; we dont need redundancy, snd Dozer Blades doesnt seem to know what RAW is, so we could be here a while otherwise.

I disagree with what you say is RAW. You are using language to derive an unintended result.

I just thought I'd put in my two cents on this..

Last edition it was stated as well that Abaddon had all 4 marks of chaos, although, they were not singularly listed as individual marks.

Simply put, the effects of all 4 marks are granted through the "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" special rule stating that he has all four marks, but under his wargear, listed as "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" granting the effects of all four marks, without the clash of each mark inherently brings by rules as written.

Therefore, (and mind you this is also what about 2 dozen other people I play with as well also believe and follow, never singularly ever having an issue in a game) the "Mark of Chaos Ascendant" incurs the effects of all 4 marks upon Abaddon, without incurring the negative effects which is why it alone is a unique special rule specifically crafted for the Warmaster that no other character within the codex has.

To me, it's almost pretty obvious they intended him to be able to join any squad he wants (he IS the warmaster, after all)

Unfortunately, typical poor rule writing lead to the opposite effect and this argument over it.

Honestly, I would let him join any squad if the Chaos player wanted him to. Then again, my group plays a lot of RAI

 washout77 wrote:
To me, it's almost pretty obvious they intended him to be able to join any squad he wants (he IS the warmaster, after all)

Unfortunately, typical poor rule writing lead to the opposite effect and this argument over it.

Honestly, I would let him join any squad if the Chaos player wanted him to. Then again, my group plays a lot of RAI

The problem with the "intended him to be able to join any squad" is that he's the Warmaster of the Black Legion, joining a single, specific deity's cult troops might show favoritism and cause resentment amongst the gossip mill that is the 4 Chaos Gods.

But then again full doesn't equal rules. I honestly don't care as I don't play tournaments and don't run Abby regularly, but I couldn't care less how my opponent plays it.

This thread seems kind of silly, its Abaddon... if he strode up to anyone aligned to chaos no matter who they worship and said ' I'm taking charge.' do you think a lowly group of marines dedicated to nurgle or tzeentch would be say umm no ? Abaddon is the warmaster as stated. He has all four marks and it doesnt say anywhere that he cant join any unit. so im all ???

I reckon this one will go four more pages and then be locked......this is always a great thread

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
This thread seems kind of silly, its Abaddon... if he strode up to anyone aligned to chaos no matter who they worship and said ' I'm taking charge.' do you think a lowly group of marines dedicated to nurgle or tzeentch would be say umm no ? Abaddon is the warmaster as stated. He has all four marks and it doesnt say anywhere that he cant join any unit. so im all ???

Actually, it says that marks can't be different would prevent Abby from technically joining anyone... And I believe Insaniak has said in one of these threads, this game is about permission, if you don't have permission to do it, you can't do it. Abby doesn't have explicit permission to ignore the different marked unit rule, so you must follow it.

Neronoxx wrote:
This has been argued a billion times and we don't need another thread about it.

Short story; you got two options
RAW he cannot join any marked squad as the rules for joining marked squads prevents him from doing this.
RAI he can join any squad because he has all four and is the warmaster.
That's it. No more discussion please. Its been argued over enough. Use the search button if you have more questions.

This. SO this.

Can we move on from this thread please?