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HawaiiMatt wrote:

40vehicles with 100+ infantry? You are exaggerating and then doubling the numbers pretending both players are mirroring lists. I usually see Mech IG with 10-12 vehicles and 65 to 75 infantry at 1800 points.

I said nearly 40 infantry on a table, not exactly.

In a 2000pt game, you can fit in 3 mechanized platoons with 3 chimeras each, 2 CCS's in chimeras, 3 hydras and 3 vendettas for 17 (non-squadroned) vehicles and 85 infantry. Facing a similar list and you're talking ~35 tanks and ~150-180 infantry

Are transports that leave cover easy to kill? Yes. But what do you expect from a ~35 point transport?

Not everything is a 35pt transport, but there's a lot of stuff that got unfairly lumped in with them in terms of rules.

This bears repeating, not everything is a 35pt transport, but a lot of stuff is lumped in with the same rules.

Do squads of men kill AV10 rear armor vehicles? Sure, on average they will. But you want to know what doesn't? A squad of 5. Try shooting the enemy before you drive right at them/

Lets assume we're not completely stupid here and that, yes, we usually aim for that. However, even a 5man squad has roughly the same chance that a 10man squad would in 5th (and are infinitely better if we're talking about a vehicle moving over 6"), and it's not always possible to halve the number of models in a unit before they make it to your vehicle.

BryllCream wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Isn't it true that for most anti-tank fire scenarios, a glancing hit will occur 1:6 times for each hit? 1:6 is by definition a minority, but it is statistically significant.

Well, what can hurt a Leman Russ? In my meta, lasguns and melta guns. If my russ is in range of a Melta gun, it's dead already. However against lascannons, they'll glance 50% of the time. So against the main source of stun-locking my Russes, 6th edition rules have doubled their shooting output.

It's like guard getting FNP 4+ on blobs. Sure it's not going to squat against many things, but against a large chunk it will be a huge boost. And this is for free, too.

This is, of course, only looking at a single hit on an otherwise intact tank. If they put more lascannons into it, or if its already got HP damage, then you're a lot worse off than in 5th.

BryllCream wrote:The fact that rhinos are considerably easier to kill with small arms than in 5th doesn't really mean much for other mech, especially the guard. AV 14 is as solid as it ever has been, and AV12 is slightly weaker but still fairly tough. A BS4 lascannon has an 11% chance to kill it outright. I like those odds

Those odds didn't change between editions. that said, again, you're only looking at what one hit can do on an assumed full HP tank, which is not the full view of what your tanks will be facing.

He's right because to calculate the time it takes to kill any given tank, you must, in parallel, keep track of HP damage and odds of any given hit exploding it. This makes each calculation unique, but by definition, it will be fewer shots than in 5th since there are two ways for the tank to die. This is demonstrably true in every case.

Low AV vehicles have a different purpose than in 5th edition. Now I use my Rhinos fast as possible, 12" move then 6" flat out, usually with a Dozer and Dirge. It's pretty cheap and gets my Troops closer to where they need to be quickly. Or if I can Infiltrate them, I disembark the Troops, move the Rhinos forward to get the Dirges in range before my fast stuff assaults. The enemy can choose to fire at the stupid Rhino, or the deadly fast nasties on the way in.

Unfortunately I often have to use the Land Raider in a similar way for my Kharn, Terminators, and Berzerkers to be used effectively. That means it can't shoot til Turn 2 or 3 usually, and then it's in range of enemy melta weapons. So many points for pointlessness, but it's my only assault boat.

So I usually favor the cheaper low AV vehicles lately; they also make good cover for Nurgle Daemon Princes on the Swoop for lack of ruins. The Predators and Vindicators aren't too bad, but they don't seem to pack the whallop for the points that my Oblits or even Havocs do.

All that said, I've been getting a lot more mileage from my Daemons lately, they don't need transports. And my Guard Allies have long range firepower, so they don't need to move (hooray for Manticores and Bastion-breacher Medusas!)

I am thinking that if you want to use Rhinos, then you must be prepared that some will be blown up, and you will give up first blood fairly often. And for it to be truely effective, you probably need to saturate with enough armor on the field. Having only 2 to 3 Rhinos on the field is asking for all 3 to be a smoking wreck by the end of turn 1.

Landraider is actually not a bad choice these days because AV 14 is really good now. It still has vulnerabilities to melta of course. But then again, every vehicle is vulnerable to melta.

There are many ways to look at this but here is how i see it, in my humble opinion

1. the HP system although not perfect fixed the 5th edition madness.

2. Lower AV might have been nerfed slightly, however they haven't been consigned to the scrapheap either...

3. HPs have made vehicle use far more tactical than before- plus some folks seem to have forgotten that mech armies are still playable and yet seem to be taking less AT weapons...


Overall 6th is wierd in one respect as it moved things sideways in that vehicles were toned down not outright nerfed into oblivion, however at the same time its made many different types of list viable again... However what we must all remember is that a lot of the armies that worked in 5th still work but require a different tactical outlook to get the most out of them..

plus you can't really blame people for not changing their armies that much, ok they will evolve over time but the old adage applies 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'

One side effect of the HP rules are the amount of time my War Walkers stay on the table.
AV10 was never great, but seeing a squadron of 3 go down to a total of 6 shots was not fun.

Like i said before, i think they should remove the Exploded result unless using an AP1-2 weapon.
Someone else said it already, theres two methods that kill vehicles now and neither are avoided (except on a select few) without making the vehicle hide like a coward, thus not be able to do anything.

Explode result before wasnt that bad because it was the only real way to kill a vehicle. If youre going to give them HP values, let them actually use it. Rolling explode results on big weapons could contribute to being insta-pasted for vehicles.

I personally feel that tanks are still a good investment, but it all depends on what the dice decide I'm afraid. I very much doubt they're conning you into buying more expensive tanks. I bet if you played games with a limited number of heavy weapons it'd be quite fun. Adding a little more drama to your games with an unprecedented arrival of vehicles from reserve?

The vehicle rules are fine. One should only take them if you really need them. F.e. there's no point in putting your troops in transport if they are going to sit on objective on your backfield. You now take the transport when the unit can really utilize it.

Using transports to sit on objectives in the enemy's backfield, that's what DAVU was for.
Not any more.....

meh_ wrote:
The vehicle rules are fine. One should only take them if you really need them. F.e. there's no point in putting your troops in transport if they are going to sit on objective on your backfield. You now take the transport when the unit can really utilize it.

Thank you! I think this whole discussion could be parceled up for each and every army:

Guard: Tanks are not useless, they're also the heavy guns.

SM: Tanks are more useless than guard because y'all have Devastators for long range, drop pods and DS Termies for short range, and bikes for inbetween. Predators and Vindi's are great if they can survive. Either place them in cover or switch to BA who does them better.

Orks: a lot like SM's except that we can't DS as much so we're stuck with BW's as the most reliable transport. One of the many reason I switched to an all Bike/Loota list. Demons and Necrons, and everyone else laughs at Orky vehicles.

Basically, the game comes down to this: most games are objectives based. Camp on yours and try to take the opponents. DS on or near the opponents objective is more reliable than running a transport across the board especially as the game goes on.

The ideal transport would be one that is reserved 14 AV all around, and can put a scoring unit anywhere on the board the turn after it arrives. A fast Skimmer LR with Twin-linked whatever.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Like i said before, i think they should remove the Exploded result unless using an AP1-2 weapon.
Someone else said it already, theres two methods that kill vehicles now and neither are avoided (except on a select few) without making the vehicle hide like a coward, thus not be able to do anything.

Explode result before wasnt that bad because it was the only real way to kill a vehicle. If youre going to give them HP values, let them actually use it. Rolling explode results on big weapons could contribute to being insta-pasted for vehicles.

So what, a 6 on the table is wrecked and 7+ is explodes?