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Martel732 wrote:
Yes, vehicles got nerfed, but they needed it. I can't tell you how stupid it was to take out AV 10 in 5th because of the magic damage table. Can't roll a 5 or 6? You're boned!

Most AV10 vehicles are open topped (killing on a 4+, 6+ glancing under 5th), and have limited weapons (meaning you likely killed it after a few pens anyway even if you didn't roll a 5-6 due to stacking Weapon Destroyed/Immobilized results). It's also not hard to pen AV10 vehicles multiple times with what really is anti-infantry weaponry. If they were squadroned it was even worse, hell, under 5th, hit an AV10 open topped vehicle in a squadron with an AP1 weapon and you killed in on a 2+.

Transport rules only got worse for assault armies I think.

 Nitros14 wrote:
Transport rules only got worse for assault armies I think.

Only in regards to disembarking. Stunned results carry over to disembarking infantry, cannot hold or even contest while embarked, etc.

I've found my Landspeeders have gotten better from 5th to 6th. They can now Jink those few bolter shots that Glance them, and don't get wrecked on an immbolized result.

They are rather strong for long ranged fire support. Hopefully they drop to Codex: Dark Angel costs when the new Vanilla Marine book comes out. (Or Black Templar, but that's being a little greedy! )

Rhinos are good for Searchlights (since half the games now are Night Fighting turn 1) and the ability to hoof it across the board. Shine your Searchlight on some enemy tank, have Vindicator/Lascannon/Speeders blow it up. I use 3 Rhinos, and have all 3 light up 3 different targets, you usually do a decent amount of damage turn 1, especially against armies that don't get searchlights (and they go first!). They are a support tank and a decent transport. The only time they are a liability is Purge the Alien. However, I can live with them being a liability on 1/6 games.

Vindicators got stronger this addition with the change to how blast templates work against vehicles. Not to mention the general reduction of cover saves (Forests), it's a lot easier to score a kill on a tank now. I can't tell you the number of times I've blown up a Land Raider turn one and then shelled the contents with my second Vindicator. Or, in combination with Null Zone, how many Paladins/Assault Terminators/Special Characters/Daemon Princes/Necron Lords they've put down.

High AV walkers got stronger, too, since they are no longer limited to 2 weapons on the move. They can now fire everything when they move, and for Forgeworld's Contemptor Dreadnought(s), that's just peachy for Marine players.

The tanks that got weaker this addition are probably Rhinos (but who cares, they are 35pts) and any other non-AV13 Walker/Tank.

If you are using Predators, put them behind an Aegis Line. Vindicators, depending on the army, either Reserve them or make good use of terrain on the board so that you can approach. Land Raiders are decent/bad depending on your meta.

For non-Marine Factions, Like before, anything non-AV13 is weak. Well, except for long range fire support tanks, as that'll generally put them out of range of Plasma Guns or any special weapon people tote. Still Autocannon range, but generally the light armored ones have jink. And if you are AV12 with a jink, even better!

Meh my DE vehicles have always been fragile so they still work just fine.

Id say if your tanks are getting destroyed 1st turn you need to learn the value of cover and deploy your units better.

There's a ton of cover denying weapons/abilities in the game, and the average cover save has become less effective. Alpha strikes are more effective than ever, especially by the time you've gotten a whittled a tank down a couple HP's and it's on its last HP and never have to worry about a damage chart, just meeting the "to-wound" value.

Martel732 wrote:Even still, transports still provide protection from blasts, templates, and small arms. People (like me) who invest in ranged antitank are lacking in other areas. (like HTH capability, like me) I have seen plenty of lists whose vast majority of firepower is 24" or less. You just never know what you will get.

And now they have a serious mobility advantage. In 5th, it was 12" vs 6+D6". Now it's 18" vs. 6+D6". That's pretty huge.

Whatever you want to say about how vehicles are worse now compared to vehicles in 5th, it's nothing compared to the nerf to foot lists compared to foot lists in 5th, or assault armies compared to assault armies in 5th.

What nerfs were there to foot armies in 5th compared with 4th?

Part of the problem with assault armies in 6th is that nerfs to vehicles, they can't adequately cross and engage without having to sit on their butts for a turn getting shot at.

I personally find that most tanks fall under 3 categories , 1ºs Transports , low priority , good for a First blood case , kill one ignore the rest,glance to dead with HB/Auto cannons, 2º Tanks that get close like vindicators ,Land Raiders and MM/HF Land Speeders ,those can cause some damage and are best to deal quickly, they are a priority target for my lascannons , 3º and last Long Range type Tanks like TFC or triple las predators, they can be a treat if left lose , infiltrate some scouts (with stormtalons for marines) with appropriate equipment or drop pod/Deep strike some troops .

The real problem is that killing the tanks will shift the focus from other targets ,they may have been made easier to kill but they still take some time to kill and can dish out a good amount of damage before they are killed and use for 1 to 3 turns of fire-power to kill that could be occupied somewhere else .

The only real back-draw imo is that assault out of the tanks that have been pointed out.

They actually on average require much less firepower to kill, usually roughly half the amount of time/shots that they used to, making it faster/easier to engage the other targets.

Even though my leman Russes can die much faster than they ever did in 5th, they're also doing far more damage than they did. Back in 5th, my local player base was very good at stunlocking tanks into submission since every player seemed to have a space wolf with as many longfangs as possible.

Even if my Leman russ only lived to turn 3, I'd much prefer it lives to turn 3 and shoot every turn, than live till the end of the game and only fire once. Now that stunlocking is much harder to do, I love my russes. Could care less about assault units getting my tanks because that's what bubblewrap is for. Deepstriking units can be a pain as well, but that's a problem IG has in general that isn't really related to vehicles.

And since our transports are tougher and able to be taken in larger numbers than other armies, we do much better even with transport spam than other armies can. But then again we're IG, we're SUPPOSED to be the army that has the best tanks.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

DE Vehicles
Low AV walker squadrons (Kanz and War Walkers)

DE vehicles actually are a lot better these days. Other than being transports, which you already mentioned as being nerfed a lot. Ravagers use to get stunned or weaponed destroyed, even blown up all the time on glances. No more. With paper thin armor, raiders still have 3 hull points. You know how many times a raider goes down on account of hull points? Not many. With the night shield they rarely get dakkaed to death and thus usually take concerted effort from real AT to take out. Even better they dont have to spend 10 points to get the 5++. In most cases they only need to move.

All walkers got worse. Even AV13 walkers can now suffer from meltabombs and haywire grenades. You know how long a walker lasts against firedragons or wyches in close combat? 1 one turn, doesnt even get to strike.

Honestly, unless people only ever got hit with glances, you're tanks probably aren't *that* much less stunlocked, and if they're hitting vehicles often enough to ensure that, they're likely being dead instead of shaken/stunned.

Bubblewrap isn't always viable (depends highly on build), and lets be honest, it's not hard to force a path through a unit of guardsmen, especially with 6E wound allocation.

This is of course to say nothing of the fact that not all tanks are "sit in the far corner and shoot things" tanks, stuff like Hellhounds, Armored Sentinels, Chimeras, Vindicators, etc.

Exergy wrote: You know how many times a raider goes down on account of hull points? Not many. With the night shield they rarely get dakkaed to death and thus usually take concerted effort from real AT to take out.

Mathematically, this doesn't make much sense. Raiders, unless being shot at by lots of AP1/2 stuff, should go down to HP's quite often, more often to HP's in fact.

An S7 autocannon will take about 50% less shots to kill a Raider with 3HP and a 5+ invul through HP's than it will through an "explodes!" result, needing about 18 BS3 autocannon shots to kill through a penetrating Explodes and 12.5 to kill through HP loss.

An S6 Multilaser should take about half as many hits to take down an AV11 3HP 5+invul Ravager will take half as many shots of average to kill through HP loss than to kill on a penetrate.

It's not unless you start tossing stuff like lascannons and meltaguns at them does it become more economical to go for Explodes results than HP.

Vaktathi wrote:Part of the problem with assault armies in 6th is that nerfs to vehicles, they can't adequately cross and engage without having to sit on their butts for a turn getting shot at.

Yeah, cross-field charges became more dangerous for mech armies, but they became flat-out suicidal for foot lists.

Welcome to a world of worse cover, focus fire, precise shots, by-model cover, and taking casualties from the front. And that's to say nothing of horde armies that were also assualt-based. You don't see slugga tides or power blobs anymore for very, very good reasons.

Really, the only things that can survive much out in the open any more are terminators and... you got it, vehicles, especially of the AV13+ variety.

Plus, it's a utitlity thing. Yeah, transports got easier to blow up, but they can't get stunned or take immobilized results from glances anymore, and they can move 6" faster. Tanks' shooting is no longer shut down by glances. Even if a vehicle dies a little faster now, they are able to actually accomplish their missions faster as well, moreso than the increased speed of their demises.

I plan on running a pretty mech list for my 2k army,

3 preds
1 LR
2 rhino

not really that worried about armor being weak when you have enough of it.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Honestly, unless people only ever got hit with glances, you're tanks probably aren't *that* much less stunlocked, and if they're hitting vehicles often enough to ensure that, they're likely being dead instead of shaken/stunned.

Bubblewrap isn't always viable (depends highly on build), and lets be honest, it's not hard to force a path through a unit of guardsmen, especially with 6E wound allocation.

This is of course to say nothing of the fact that not all tanks are "sit in the far corner and shoot things" tanks, stuff like Hellhounds, Armored Sentinels, Chimeras, Vindicators, etc.

When every list in your area spammed missiles like it was going out of style, and they only need one glance to shut up a tank, trust me, I saw lots of stun locking. They'd just glance each tank once, then focus on killing your troops.

In 6th though, I'm seeing less missile launchers, and even where they're plentiful, they can never silence my tank unless they can glance it 3 times in a row (which is harder than it looks) I think I could count the number of times I've been "stunlocked", even for just a turn, on one hand, and those were against DE players spamming the heck out of lances. Missile launchers are a joke to Leman Russes now, unlike in 5th, where they were extremely annoying, and could even cripple a tank if they were lucky.

Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, cross-field charges became more dangerous for mech armies, but they became flat-out suicidal for foot lists.

Welcome to a world of worse cover, focus fire, precise shots, by-model cover, and taking casualties from the front. And that's to say nothing of horde armies that were also assualt-based. You don't see slugga tides or power blobs anymore for very, very good reasons.

And the mech assault armies aren't really any more common (at least competitively), unless they are, as you said, AV13+ or TEQ's.

Plus, it's a utitlity thing. Yeah, transports got easier to blow up, but they can't get stunned or take immobilized results from glances anymore, and they can move 6" faster.

Can't hold/contest objectives at all, disembarking troops still affected by shaken/stunned,

Tanks' shooting is no longer shut down by glances.

They're often dead instead is the problem.

Even if a vehicle dies a little faster now, they are able to actually accomplish their missions faster as well, moreso than the increased speed of their demises.

the problem is that they don't die "a little faster", it's that, especially for medium vehicles, they die a whole lot faster.

MrMoustaffa wrote:
When every list in your area spammed missiles like it was going out of style, and they only need one glance to shut up a tank, trust me, I saw lots of stun locking. They'd just glance each tank once, then focus on killing your troops.

On Chimeras? Sure, but then they'd still be penetrating more than glancing, so stunlocking under 6th wouldn't be tremendously different. However, where before 15 missiles from 3 long fang units on average were killing 1 tank, now they'll likely be killing 2 through HP's. Against LRBT's, on average they'd glance once, if lucky twice, so that shouldn't have been a huge factor.

In 6th though, I'm seeing less missile launchers, and even where they're plentiful,

largely because they're notably less effective against most targets relative to other weaponry. That's a rather unique condition specific to the missile launcher.

Missile launchers are a joke to Leman Russes now, unlike in 5th, where they were extremely annoying, and could even cripple a tank if they were lucky.

On a 1/6 chance, they weren't much scarier in 5th either.

Man, I totally agree. I lose tanks literally every turn.

Then again, I do play an Armored Battlegroup...

But on a serious note, I haven't noticed that much of a difference in how fast my tanks die. That would probably be because Tau Railguns are almost always going to shoot my Russ before my Chimeras, so naturally the Chimeras last longer. HP have added a very unique aspect to fighting tanks. With HPs my opponents can see which tank is about to die, and usually shoot the tank with the least, even if other tanks are clearly about to wreck something important. They want the kill so bad after working so hard to crack AV14

I play ig. I felt the pain first game I played. I could care less about being able to shoot longer before dying. Because now I die after a turn as opposed to castling and shooting 3 turns then moving on objectives the last two rounds and pray I drive close enough to drop my guys off before being popped. Small arms fire rips apart transports now too.

The biggest problem is that transports got a big nerf. Proper tanks didn't get a big hit because av 13/14 is still solid and now they can shoot consistently. And the problems with the transport nerf is that some armies rely on their transports as armor (ig) where as marines really don't need them to be effective.

This is what we get when fluff bunnies and casual players squeal loud enough and long enough. And gamesworkshop doesn't know how to balance anything so there you have it.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Are people playing games where AT guns besides plasma and autocannons are extinct entirely? Because I still see lascannons and meltaguns fairly routinely, along with lances and railguns and the like. Just because not everything is packing only meltaguns doesn't mean they aren't still quite common weapons.

 azreal13 wrote:
Vehicles haven't gotten worse, they're differently fragile.

By that I mean things that weren't a threat before now need to be accommodated and other things that were previously a major issue are less of a concern.

I think perhaps you haven't changed your playing style very much from fifth, and that's the root cause of your issues. I wish I could offer advice on how to do things differently but I'm still working in that myself.

They very definitely have gotten worse. They are significantly easier to kill, are practically auto-killed by the most common basic troops in the game in CC, and no longer can impact mission objectives in any way except specialized missions and only certain FoC slots, along with transports losing a whole ton of utility and smoke launchers becoming less useful.

They gained only in that glancing hits do not roll on a table and can get cover easier.

Changes to glancing in 6th have roughly doubled the number of shots my Russes get off before they're popped. You can't dismiss an extra 2 turns of firepower, often the first two turns, as some sort of minor buff.

Mechanised IG in sixth edition is pimp.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Missile launchers are a joke to Leman Russes now, unlike in 5th, where they were extremely annoying, and could even cripple a tank if they were lucky.

On a 1/6 chance, they weren't much scarier in 5th either.

But if you get that 6 you then have a 5/6 chance of stopping the tank from shooting next turn, and even that one bad result permanently immobilizes it. In 5th you could spam a ton of shots and hope for a suppressing glance, but in 6th all you do is take off a hull point and the tank keeps shooting. Suppression is no longer possible, you NEED melta/lascannons/etc, the single-role tank killers you really don't want to have to bring instead of multi-role weapons like MLs and plasma.

Anyway, in 6th it's simple:

Against melta/lascannons/etc there's no change. You're probably dying to an "explodes" result before HP loss is a factor, and the chances of that result are the same as in 5th.

Against assault there's no change. Technically you go from being hit in a 4+ to a 3+ (few tanks could reduce it to a 6 without giving up shooting), but in 5th you were still screwed if anything more threatening than a single tactical marine got to assault your tank. Moving the average result from "almost certainly dead" to "massively overkilled" is not a meaningful change, it just lets assault players laugh at how they removed 15 HP in a single charge.

Against other weapons it balances out. Tanks die faster, but are more likely to function effectively until they die instead of being suppressed and useless until someone finally rolls a 5+ on the damage table.


So, it all depends on how you look at it. If your tanks are there to kill stuff or deliver a unit they got better. If your tanks are there to be a 7-turn bunker on an objective they got worse. But for units like the Leman Russ 6th is an improvement over 5th.

I wish more people would go mechless army lists. It'd make games so much easier....

-.-

I run 5 Trukks, 2 Battlewagons lists fairly regularly and I don't see that big a difference between now and Fifth. Something to consider is 75% of all games you will be either be going first, have night fighting cover saves, or both. So most of the time you will get cover from alpha strike or get to alpha strike your opponents AT. I feel like now I don't always have to take a KFF to keep trukks from dying turn one. and It's crazy easy to put three looted wagons behind an ADL. Armour 11 with a 4+ cover save can be a lot harder to kill than you'd think.

I use to run mech orks in 3rd and 4th and they would die to a harsh breeze. I'm finding that in 6th my vehicles last a lot better in 6th them back then. Mech did need to brought down a peg from 5th as it was way too overpowered. I like the way mech works now I think its strong enough to be effective but weak enough not to be too overpowered. If you are struggling to use your mech effectivly try some new tactics.

BA AV13 spam list still can probably do very well, havent try them this edition though.
Now a Cruising BA Predator can fire 2 LCs and snap shot the AC!

Also because BA are fast if they move 6" they can fire everything.

Sinji wrote:
Also because BA are fast if they move 6" they can fire everything.

yea, that's great since 5th, but cruising firing 2 weapons and 1 snap shot is a good buff especially for the Baal Preds. Now HB sponsons are better investments.

Yeah that NF half the time (or more, I tend to roll on the Strategic table with the Night Fight option) does make a big difference in survivability at range. When I play Tau I always equip my Railgun units with a Blacksun Filter for that very reason.

Overall, in my games I do see enemy armor dying faster than it did before, while on the flip side my tanks have tended to be useful later into the game and are having a bigger impact on the game than they were before. Though the combination of Jink and Shrouded is probably the most responsible for that added effect.

Saythings wrote:
I play with Tyranids so I'm never going to see the negative side of using AV units. I play roughly 80% of my games with IG players that LOVE to go Mech. Almost also full Mech. I'm talking 8-12 tanks, and 3 Vendetta coming off Reserves. He usually parking lots his army with LRBT and has 14 AV front and 13 AV Sides, with his Chimeras (5-6 usually) in the middle of this. He usually deploys perfect and I can never get a shot on anything less than AV13. This means, I almost have to run Zoanthropes with S10, Lances. With Hiveguard, I would need 5+ to glance, 6+ to pene... That's not realistic with 2 shots at 24". I cannot rely on that. If he gets to go first, I better hide my Zoanthropes, cause if he kills them, I practically lost. The only other way I can kill AV13 with nids (without using elite slots) is my MCs. Yay... I get smash S10 hits with reroll on the AP... but I have to get them to his tanks. And with 3 vendettas, 2-4 LRBT's, 1-2 Demolishers and 6 Chimeras with Melta/Plasma... they aren't going to make it.

I also played against a CSM player, he's relatively new to 6th, but he simply ran a lot of fast choice units and 3 rhinos with troops inside. Yes, I popped them with my 12 TL Devourer shots no problem, but I had to pop those instead of lighting up the marines with S6 shots. Rhinos are worth it, trust me. Stop looking at the negative.. Nancy! (Sorry I had to).

The point is, deploy better, use AV13/14 in your lists, or just run 5-6 rhinos and stop crying about how easy it is to pop them. Ailaros had it right. When you see basilisks and heldrakes... you'll want your Rhinos back. If someone ran Gunline and no Mech against my 2000 point list, I'd be so, so, so happy. Lol

Parking lots you say.... Mawlocs I say....

I can relate to both sides of this argument. I play both IG and SW. Armor saturation is clutch to utilizing tanks in 6th. I don't really think that Rhinos and other AV11 and below transports are very viable anymore. For My Space Wolves, Drop Pods have become the go-to transport. They are much more reliable now. On the other end of the spectrum, heavily mechanized armies that have some serious AV12+ armor saturation can be hard to drop. Most people just don't have the volume of anti-tank fire. Imperial Guard armies with 10 tanks can be a pain. There's the 4 Land Raider Crusader with 4+ invulnerable cheesyness. I think that tanks, as a general category did take more losses than gains, in 6th, but it's not that bad. I like tailoring new lists for new editions.