nosferatu1001 wrote:Neo - you stated that there was a new context where "unit" did not mean "BRB unit" but "those models with the BoP rule". You said it repeatedly, and then posted up "1)" as proof. I pointed out it did not actually state that.

"The IC is a member of the unit"- yes or no.

If YES then the IC is bound by the result of the test, because that is what the literal rule states.

Please answer the quesiton, and prove that "is bound by" means "apart from when I decide they arent"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Jeffersonian - please fllow the tenets, helpfully stickied at the top of the forum. You have so far provided no argument, an d jst another personal attack. Reported.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Who is condescending now, Nos?

The rules in question are:

Independent Character (pg. 39, BRB)

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Brotherhood of Psykers (pg. 21, GK Codex)

Units of Grey Knights are psykers and use their mental might to enhance their abilities or unleash psychic attacks.
A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. The unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers, with the following clarifications:
• A Grey Knight unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or the unit (if he is dead) for Psychic tests.
• If the Grey Knight unit suffers Perils of the Warp, or any attack the specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive), or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead.

Psyker Mastery Levels (pg. 21, GK Codex)

Codex: Grey Knights uses Mastery Levels, shown in brackets after the Psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic powers a character can use each turn. For each Mastery Level a character has, he use one psychic power per turn.

Nemesis Force Weapons (pg. 54, GK Codex)

Force Weapons: All Nemesis force weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to ‘activate’ all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit’s Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different initiative orders, take the Psychic test to ‘activate’ the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds are caused by the unit’s Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of the Psychic test.

So, what about these rules causes an issue? The specific part where it states that is the unit has the Brotherhood of Psykers special rules, only one roll to activate is made, with the exception of Independent Characters which must make their own rolls. Also, there is the part the states that all unsaved wounds dealt after the activation are bound by the results of that roll.

Why is this an issue? Because Independent Characters are for all intents and purposes count as members of whatever unit they join for all unit rules. This means that ICs count as having the BoP special rule while they are joined to a BoP unit. Which would also means that ICs would be counted in with the other BoP models in their unit, if it wasn’t for their Psyker Mastery Level and the following Q and A:

6th edition GK FAQ 1.3

Q: If a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule, a unit of Inquisitorial Henchmen with one or more Psykers in it, or any other similar unit containing multiple Psykers is within 12” of a Culexus
Assassin, does the presence of that unit add +1 to the Animus Speculum’s Assault value or +1 for each Psychic model present in the unit? (p53)
A: Such a unit contributes +1 to the Animus Speculum’s assault value no matter how many Psykers it consist of, unless those Psykers have the Independent Character special rule in which case each such Psyker contributes a +1.

Per the precedent set above, Independent Characters, while counted as part of a unit for all rules purposes, stands on their own for psyker related rules. This creates an interesting interaction between the Nemesis Force Weapon rules, the Brotherhood of Psykers rules, and Mastery Level rule.

If we have a unit with the BoP special rules, say a squad of GKT, the NFW and BoP rules allow that unit to activate their NFW on a single Psychic test roll immediately after the first unsaved wound is caused. If we add a character with a Mastery Level to that squad, such as Justicar Thawn, Thawn would follow all rules for BoP with the exception that he has 2 Warp Charges and may use 2 powers each turn where the rest of his unit has 1 Warp Charge and can only use 1 power per turn. On their first unsaved wound caused, the entire unit can activate their NFW on a single Psychic test roll using Thawn’s Leadership, with all further unsaved wounds inflicting Instant Death.

Another example of a similar situation is Grand Master Mordrak and his Ghost Knights. As the Ghost Knights have BoP, and Mordrak counts as the unit’s upgrade character while also not being an Independent Character, Mordrak also falls under the BoP rule for NFW activation. Yet, if we add an IC to Thawn’s or Mordrak’s units, the BoP rule interaction with NFW activation becomes more complex. A Librarian added to Mordrak’s Ghost Knights or Thawn’s GKT squad would have to roll separately for their own NFW activation (per the NFW rules). Once the Libby’s NFW is active, any further wounds inflicted by the Libby with his NFW wound cause Instant Death just like the rest of the BoP unit.

Example: Librarian join a GKT squad with Thawn. Thawn comes equipped with a Halberd, while the Librarian has a Staff, and the GKT have Swords and Hammers. If Thawn scores an unsaved wound, he and his squad (including the Libby) immediately roll a Psychic test to activated their NFW. Thawn rolls for his squad per the BoP rule, while the Libby roles on his own per the BoP rule. Once the two rolls are completed, and if both pass, all of the wounds inflicted by the unit’s NFW with cause ID from that point on. Note that the Libby has yet to swing his Staff in combat, yet his NFW is already activated when his initiative step is reached. Any wounds he causes with his NFW that round are bound by the results of that activation roll.

Let’s say the Libby passed his check while Thawn failed his with a double 6. Thawn dies on initiative step 6, and his remaining GKT go without NFW activation, yet the Libby’s Staff is fully active when
initiative step 4 is reached. In this case, only the Libby’s inflicted unsaved wounds will ID, as the remaining GKT are bound by their failed activation roll.

Nos, Rigel, please inform the rest of us how you think the activation sequence works, with examples and citations. That is, only if you feel that I am wrong.

SJ

*edit for spacing, spelling, Dyslexia

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
We've shown the correct sequence the NFW rule works through over the various unit compositions one can have with NFW activation.

rigeld2 wrote:
A parenthetical statement should be able to be removed from the sentence and not change the meaning whatsoever.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
NEo - there was a question in there, and it is one you ducked answering

Is the IC a member of the unit?

Are members of the unit bound by the result of the test?

Once you have answered those, with actual straightforward Yes or No answers, we can perhaps move on.

Jeffersonian - I've cited rules plenty of times. You have ignored them. That doesnt mean I didnt cite them, just that you ignored them. Apparently your constant breaking of rule 1 doesnt count here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Beast - another ruleless post.

I have answered all of the rules queries raised by the opposing side, and shown how they do not actually provide the exception the side belives they do.

There is no exception for ICs to NOT be bound; they are told they must test separately, but as a member of the unit they are STIL lbound by the result

If you disagree with my posts, be specific and argue the argument. Just spamming "me too", which is what your post devolves to, isnt helping matters.

I will not respond to you further in this thread, unless you make a rules argument. "Me too" is not a rules argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
""Any further wounds caused by the units NFW's that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test".
"

So, is the IC a member of the unit? If so, and he causes a wound with his NFW he is bound by the result of that test.

At no point am I claiming he has BoP, or has it conferred. I AM however saying he is a member of the unit (true) and there is a rule saying ALL members of the unit are bound by the test

So, again - in order to say the IC is not bound by this rule, you have to prove he is not a member of the unit. This was trivial in 5th edition (at the time of activation he wasnt) and is untrue in 6th.

This is due to a core ruels change. Shockingly enough such a significant rules change to a core mechanic such as combat was not catered for in a prior edition codex, and has exposed some holes in the rules

I am really unsure why some people are seemingly taking this so personally.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Jeffersonian - I've cited rules plenty of times. You have ignored them. That doesnt mean I didnt cite them, just that you ignored them. Apparently your constant breaking of rule 1 doesnt count here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:(Neo - there is your answer. Whether the correct reading of a rule causes issues elsewhere isnt an argument against that reading. All it means is that GW wrote a poor ruleset - who knew)

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Elric - off topic hence ignored. This is not the same situation