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Quick question about how these two rules interact. Since they both require physcic tests only one can be used per squad/IC per assault phase? Do these still stack if IC makes a Hammer Hand check and the Squad rolls force weapons, ie the squad is hitting at S5 with instant death?

That's exactly right!

Obviously each needs to roll separately, and I'm not entirely sure, after reading through the rules on NFW, that the IC causes instant death, but they are all at S5 and the squad does cause ID

Now how about a character like BC Stern, he's a psyker lvl 2, so can he roll his Hammerhand and force wep in the same cc provided he hasn't used any other powers yet, or are the psyker lvls only for shooting phase powers? I havn't used psykers under the new rules yet.

FAQ:
A Grey Knights Librarian may use the psychic disciplines found
in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, instead of those in
Codex: Grey Knights. If he does so, generate a number of psychic
powers equal to his Mastery Level from the Divination,
Pyromancy or Telekinesis disciplines (in any combination)
before armies are deployed. If he does so he may not purchase
additional powers. Hammerhand cannot be exchanged in this
manner, but is instead retained in addition to the powers
purchased or generated by the Librarian.

So he can keep all of the powers he is given or he can roll2 powers in the BRB.

Also from the FAQ:
Q: As they follow the rules for a Brotherhood of Psykers, can squads
of Grey Knights that have more than one psychic power exchange
their non-Hammerhand power for a power from the psychic
disciplines like a Librarian?
A: No.

So - how it works is this: Every non inquisitor will ALWAYS have Hammerhand (Also in the FAQ - Psychic Communion cannot be traded out) in addition to whatever they get from their mastery level. Everyone that has a Mastery Level can either purchase powers per the GK Codex or just save the points and generate from the lists above. Special people who have a level and given powers can give up all powers EXCEPT Psychic Communion and Hammerhand and generate randomly like other psykers.

The only thing is - you cannot pick and choose - it is either or. So if you know you want to generate randomly - save the points...otherwise buy ALL the powers you want.

One way of looking at it is if your squad of Grey Knights is facing a unit of single-wound models, Hammerhand is the better choice. However, if the enemy unit is composed of multi-wound models, force weapon activation is the better option. And if your squad has an attached IC with Mastery Level of 2 or better, the best option to take on that multi-wound enemy unit is to have the IC pop Hammerhand followed by everyone triggering their force weapons when available.

One thing to keep in mind is that Perils of the Warp can no longer be saved against, which is why the Brotherhood Banner is worth every point for GK units that can take it.

SJ

Basically, unless they have a given Mastery Level, all GK units and characters are Mastery Level 1. meaning they can cast 1 power that takes 1 warp charge.


So a squad can cast either HH or activate their force weapons.

If there is an IC in the squad, he could cast HH, which effects everyone in combat, and then the squad could activate their Force Weapons. The IC could then activate his own force weapon as well(if he still had Warp Charges left and was Mastery Level 2-3)

Also, multiple castings of HH stack. So both the squad and IC could cast HH and have a cumulative +2str.

Since the IC is a member of the unit for all rules purposes, couldn't he cast HH, the squad cast HH, and if the IC causes a wound first have him activate Force - including the squad?

Or does the GK codex specify that the IC has to activate separately?

the IC doesn't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, which seperates the force weapon activation from the rest of the squad.

 Grey Templar wrote:
the IC doesn't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, which seperates the force weapon activation from the rest of the squad.

Except of course that activation of NFW isn't mentioned in BoP, just what to do with Perils and IC leadership note.
The NFW rule says that once activated the unit's NFWs inflict Instant Death that phase.

In 5th they were required to test separately because of how ICs were handled. That has changed in 6th.
(Had to dig out my codex...)

Indeed, it looks like as an IC is not longer a separate unit while in CC, he can activate the units forceweapons

Sweet, thats awsome.

Provided said character has the 'brotherhood of psykers' rule. Most don't. (in truth, every single 'independant' character does not, the only exception i can think of that has a high enough psychic mastery for this to matter is justicar thawn.)

Activating the NFW requires a psychic test, which BoP alters for the purposes of any models in the squad which have the BoP rule. The IC in the squad (while a member of the unit) does not benefit or suffer from the BoP rule and would therefore have to activate their own NFW seperately.

 Neorealist wrote:
Provided said character has the 'brotherhood of psykers' rule. Most don't. (in truth, every single 'independant' character does not, the only exception i can think of that has a high enough psychic mastery for this to matter is justicar thawn.)

Citation required - BoP doesn't mention this at all.

Activating the NFW requires a psychic test.

No one's said differently so I'm not sure what your point is.

Heh, i'm sure you are familiar with the BoP rule, but i'll quote the relevent text from it for you anyway:
"The unit uses the Leadership of its character, if there is one (and he is alive), or the unit, if there isn't a character (or he is dead), for Psychic tests. The unit can never use the leadership of an Independent Character for Psychic tests..."

And for force weapons:
"...He can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test... ...if the test is failed... ...then there is no additional effect... "

TL;DR version: a psychic test is necessary to activate each force weapon normally, BoP modifies this as one Psychic check for the squad rather than each individual member. The IC may not benefit from the BoP rule since he doesn't have it.

That's absolutely incorrect.

The BoP says you can't use the ICs leadership for tests - but the squad isn't required to test. Read The NFW rules - once activated the unit benefits. Is the IC part of the unit?

Where on earth are you seeing an indication that the squad does not need to test to activate it's NFWs?

 Neorealist wrote:
Where on earth are you seeing an indication that the squad does not need to test to activate it's NFWs?

In the rules for NFW.
IC hits. IC wounds. IC tests. NFWs activated - the squad cannot test to activate even if they have a Warp Charge available. Page 54, C:GK. it's pretty clear that a unit only gets one chance to roll and is bound by it. Is the IC part of the unit?

No it's really not. The grey knight codex literally states:
"...Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all it's force weapons (although independant characters must still roll seperately). If the test is passed..."

Which unless i'm sorely mistaken, is the exact opposite from what you've been saying.

I missed that sentence, but I can't help but think that's a leftover from how 5th edition ICs were handled in combat. Because in 6th if you take that at face value and the IC rolls first - if he fails, the squad cannot even test because he's part of the unit, and the rest of the unit is "bound by the result of that Psychic test."

 Amaraxis wrote:
So - how it works is this: Every non inquisitor will ALWAYS have Hammerhand (Also in the FAQ - Psychic Communion cannot be traded out) in addition to whatever they get from their mastery level. Everyone that has a Mastery Level can either purchase powers per the GK Codex or just save the points and generate from the lists above. Special people who have a level and given powers can give up all powers EXCEPT Psychic Communion and Hammerhand and generate randomly like other psykers.

You might want to clarify your summary a little- only Librarians and Inquisitors have the option to get powers from then rulebook. Other models with Mastery levels (like Grandmasters and such) do not have the option to swap at all.

rigeld2 wrote:
I missed that sentence, but I can't help but think that's a leftover from how 5th edition ICs were handled in combat. Because in 6th if you take that at face value and the IC rolls first - if he fails, the squad cannot even test because he's part of the unit, and the rest of the unit is "bound by the result of that Psychic test."

The entire codex is a 'leftover' from 5th edition, that specific part of it is no exception. That said, there isn't anything new in the 6th edition FAQ/Update to indicate that process has changed at all.

The rule indicates that only models with BoP need/can test once to activate all their force weapons. The IC (barring justicar thrawn) does not have that special rule, and therefor is not subject to it's effects and restrictions. In essence if you roll for the IC to activate his force weapon and then later on you activate the squad's force weapons via BoP, you are still only activating the squads force weapons via the BoP rules and restrictions just once.

 Grey Templar wrote:


If there is an IC in the squad, he could cast HH, which effects everyone in combat,

This isn't quite true. Only the unit that the IC was attached to when he charged gets the HH. If a Libby is attached to a Termie squad, and both the Termies and a GKSS charge an enemy unit, only the Termies will get the Libby's HH. The GKSS will have to pass their own test to be at Str5.

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I missed that sentence, but I can't help but think that's a leftover from how 5th edition ICs were handled in combat. Because in 6th if you take that at face value and the IC rolls first - if he fails, the squad cannot even test because he's part of the unit, and the rest of the unit is "bound by the result of that Psychic test."

The entire codex is a 'leftover' from 5th edition, that specific part of it is no exception. That said, there isn't anything new in the 6th edition FAQ/Update to indicate that process has changed at all.

The rule indicates that only models with BoP need/can test once to activate all their force weapons. The IC (barring justicar thrawn) does not have that special rule, and therefor is not subject to it's effects and restrictions. In essence if you roll for the IC to activate his force weapon and then later on you activate the squad's force weapons via BoP, you are still only activating the squads force weapons via the BoP rules and restrictions just once.

Except then you're saying that the unit is not bound to the first test to activate - and yet the NFW rules require that.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I missed that sentence, but I can't help but think that's a leftover from how 5th edition ICs were handled in combat. Because in 6th if you take that at face value and the IC rolls first - if he fails, the squad cannot even test because he's part of the unit, and the rest of the unit is "bound by the result of that Psychic test."

The entire codex is a 'leftover' from 5th edition, that specific part of it is no exception. That said, there isn't anything new in the 6th edition FAQ/Update to indicate that process has changed at all.

The rule indicates that only models with BoP need/can test once to activate all their force weapons. The IC (barring justicar thrawn) does not have that special rule, and therefor is not subject to it's effects and restrictions. In essence if you roll for the IC to activate his force weapon and then later on you activate the squad's force weapons via BoP, you are still only activating the squads force weapons via the BoP rules and restrictions just once.

Except then you're saying that the unit is not bound to the first test to activate - and yet the NFW rules require that.

The NFW rules say that ICs test separately. How much clearer can they be?

rigeld2 wrote:
Because in 6th if you take that at face value and the IC rolls first - if he fails, the squad cannot even test because he's part of the unit, and the rest of the unit is "bound by the result of that Psychic test."

This is not how Force weapons work. Force USR, p37:
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon...." So, each Psyker must pass his own test to activate the Force weapon. An IC is a Psyker, and a unit of GK is one Psyker (per the Brotherhood USR). There are two Psykers, therefore, each of which must pass its own test to use the NFW. Neither is bound by the other's result.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:


If there is an IC in the squad, he could cast HH, which effects everyone in combat,

This isn't quite true. Only the unit that the IC was attached to when he charged gets the HH. If a Libby is attached to a Termie squad, and both the Termies and a GKSS charge an enemy unit, only the Termies will get the Libby's HH. The GKSS will have to pass their own test to be at Str5.

sorry, thats what I meant.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The NFW rules say that ICs test separately. How much clearer can they be?

If the IC rolls first then the unit is bound to that result.

Is the IC a member of the unit?
If so, why is the unit not bound the the result of the first psychic test? It's an issue because of how 6th treats ICs different from 5th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Because in 6th if you take that at face value and the IC rolls first - if he fails, the squad cannot even test because he's part of the unit, and the rest of the unit is "bound by the result of that Psychic test."

This is not how Force weapons work. Force USR, p37:
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon...." So, each Psyker must pass his own test to activate the Force weapon. An IC is a Psyker, and a unit of GK is one Psyker (per the Brotherhood USR). There are two Psykers, therefore, each of which must pass its own test to use the NFW. Neither is bound by the other's result.

Page 54 C:GK disagrees. The unit is bound by the result, pass or fail. Is the IC a member of the unit?

rigeld2 512876 5371522 wrote:Except then you're saying that the unit is not bound to the first test to activate - and yet the NFW rules require that.

That is correct, but only applies to the models with the BoP rule. Any non-BoP psyker casting their own powers do not count for the purposes of wether or not a psyker 'with' the BoP rule has manifested a power this turn or not.

rigeld2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The NFW rules say that ICs test separately. How much clearer can they be?

If the IC rolls first then the unit is bound to that result.

Is the IC a member of the unit?
If so, why is the unit not bound the the result of the first psychic test? It's an issue because of how 6th treats ICs different from 5th.

The unit isn't bound by the test because the NFW rules tell us that he tests separately. Testing separately means they're not bound by the same rolls. Again, how is this unclear?

So the unit is not bound by the result of the test?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 512876 5371522 wrote:Except then you're saying that the unit is not bound to the first test to activate - and yet the NFW rules require that.

That is correct, but only applies to the models with the BoP rule. Any non-BoP psyker casting their own powers do not count for the purposes of wether or not a psyker 'with' the BoP rule has manifested a power this turn or not.

That's not what NFW says. In 5th it said that because the IC was a separate unit while in combat. In 6th they are always the same unit.

Since they're the same unit and "the unit" is bound by the result...