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 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
While I agree with the whole filling the gaps thing I'm just amazed there's actually art of mini-Magnuses running around. It's significant because it would actually rule out the Blood Ravens having Thousand Sons geneseed. Course it might just be a fluke since it seems to be the only illustration of its kind.

Since we keep ignoring this, I'll bring it up again:

Geneseed does not seem to make a carbon copy of a Primarch. It seems to rather expound on traits already present that are shared with the primarch. If you already had long blond hair, I'm sure Sanguinius's geneseed would make it more luxurious than ever. If you were already a red-headed stepchild, Magnus would make you more gingery than ever before.

Geneseed is not a cloning mechanism.

And you seem to be ignoring this.


I never said gene-seed results in a carbon copy. In fact I was saying the appearance of the Blood Ravens has little to do on whether or not they do have traitor gene-seed (since the features should primarily stem from the recruits). Then I realized no one here actually knows what a Thousand Sons marine looks like so I found an illustration from the Horus Heresy artbook.

Last I checked the topic was about chapters made from tratior gene-seed... which includes the Blood Ravens. So you'll excuse me if I ignore what you said when we have angry Magnus clones staring us in the face.

And what makes you think that native Prosperites didn't have red skin?

The red skin is plausible. The missing eye is not. That said, I can certainly see a sub-cult within the legion that ritualistically removed their eye as part of respect for their primarch, or for other esoteric reasons. But that would be completely unrelated to geneseed.

 dusara217 wrote:
And what makes you think that native Prosperites didn't have red skin?

No idea, I'm wondering if anyone here can clarify since I haven't read the Thousand Sons novels in the HH series. It would be rather odd though since there's no special mention of a red-skinned population in other fluff sources.

jareddm wrote:
The red skin is plausible. The missing eye is not. That said, I can certainly see a sub-cult within the legion that ritualistically removed their eye as part of respect for their primarch, or for other esoteric reasons. But that would be completely unrelated to geneseed.

Yea, I can see the removing the eye part. But unless the native populations really did have red skin and hair, it would mean the colour comes from the geneseed... and that Blood Ravens can't have Thousand Sons geneseed. Course its only a single picture and could easily be retconned ... not that it's from the most credible source anyway.

EngulfedObject wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
And what makes you think that native Prosperites didn't have red skin?

No idea, I'm wondering if anyone here can clarify since I haven't read the Thousand Sons novels in the HH series. It would be rather odd though since there's no special mention of a red-skinned population in other fluff sources.

I'm currently reading a Thousand Sons, and there is absolutely no mention Thousand Sons having red skin, though I believe that they said Ahriman had bronze skin.

jareddm wrote:The red skin is plausible. The missing eye is not. That said, I can certainly see a sub-cult within the legion that ritualistically removed their eye as part of respect for their primarch, or for other esoteric reasons. But that would be completely unrelated to geneseed.

That would make sense, if there was cult within the Legion that did that.

 dusara217 wrote:
I'm currently reading a Thousand Sons, and there is absolutely no mention Thousand Sons having red skin, though I believe that they said Ahriman had bronze skin.

Exactly, there was no reason for me to assume the inhabitants of Prospero had red skin since it's never mentioned (as far as I'm aware) whereas Magnus is specifically called "the Red."

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
I'm currently reading a Thousand Sons, and there is absolutely no mention Thousand Sons having red skin, though I believe that they said Ahriman had bronze skin.

Exactly, there was no reason for me to assume the inhabitants of Prospero had red skin since it's never mentioned (as far as I'm aware) whereas Magnus is specifically called "the Red."

Lol I think the point was missed when I said we may have veered off topic. The picture is just a picture and explained away in a number of ways.

I'm glad we addressed genetic inheritance, but we should try and find other common markers now that physical description has been ruled out as a fuzzy indicator of genetic legacy.

It's possible the guys in the picture had lots of red warpaint on, maybe. Considering how much Marines loved their Primarch, painting their entire bodies red in honor of Magnus seems plausible enough to me (same with ripping out the eye)

We know the eye doesn't come from the gene seed anyways. It comes from Magnus selling it to Tzeentch. At least, if I recall correctly.

Also, gene-seed differentiates itself over time. Carcharodons fluff explicitly state that their gene seed resembles the Raven Guard, yet "has lots of differences which can be explained by the passage of time and generations" or something like that.

(and yea, I meant Extermination for the Carcharodon's Raven Guard origins. I keep forgetting that the massacre was split into two books)

I decided to do a bit more investigation myself and I've found that the previous shown image is not the only picture in Collected Visions of Thousand Sons without helms.



Both clearly show Thousand Sons with greyish skin, possibly native to Prospero, rather than what has been previously shown.

jareddm wrote:
I decided to do a bit more investigation myself and I've found that the previous shown image is not the only picture in Collected Visions of Thousand Sons without helms.


Both clearly show Thousand Sons with greyish skin, possibly native to Prospero, rather than what has been previously shown.

Phew. Glad that's resolved and we can move on to more interesting things than how the Thousand Sons looked

jareddm wrote:
I decided to do a bit more investigation myself and I've found that the previous shown image is not the only picture in Collected Visions of Thousand Sons without helms.



Both clearly show Thousand Sons with greyish skin, possibly native to Prospero, rather than what has been previously shown.

Yea, I was going to do more digging but I haven't had access to my book for the past few days. That's what I thought, it really is just that one picture. Still, if it's actually printed then it's possible there was a small group that looked just like Magnus - still mindblowing! You could use that to make your own mini-Magnuses for example.

 Shidank wrote:
Phew. Glad that's resolved and we can move on to more interesting things than how the Thousand Sons looked

Determining what the Thousand Sons looked like or how much the gene-seed affects their appearance is perfectly relevant to the thread since it might rule out the Blood Ravens having Thousand Sons (traitor) gene-seed. Did you have something more interesting in mind?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

jareddm wrote:
I decided to do a bit more investigation myself and I've found that the previous shown image is not the only picture in Collected Visions of Thousand Sons without helms.


Both clearly show Thousand Sons with greyish skin, possibly native to Prospero, rather than what has been previously shown.

Yea, I was going to do more digging but I haven't had access to my book for the past few days. That's what I thought, it really is just that one picture. Still, if it's actually printed then it's possible there was a small group that looked just like Magnus - still mindblowing! You could use that to make your own mini-Magnuses for example.

 Shidank wrote:
Phew. Glad that's resolved and we can move on to more interesting things than how the Thousand Sons looked

Determining what the Thousand Sons looked like or how much the gene-seed affects their appearance is perfectly relevant to the thread since it might rule out the Blood Ravens having Thousand Sons (traitor) gene-seed. Did you have something more interesting in mind?

I would agree except that the discrepancies in non-canon art and the general acceptance that geneseed affects physical condition based on where you're from and physical traits you already possess seem to rule out physical appearance as much of an indicator at all.

As a favor, I'll ask you to stop spamming the same pictures and bringing this up over and over unless there's something new to add.

 Shidank wrote:
As a favor, I'll ask you to stop spamming the same pictures and bringing this up over and over unless there's something new to add.

Wow, you're friendly one. I re-posted the picture once since you were complaining about us continuing the discussion. It was an over-top picture that was oddly relevant to the discussion so I thought it worth discussing. And it's from material published by GW. What makes your opinion more valid as a fluff source?

And what exactly has your contribution been other than stating your opinion as fact, then complaining about other people discussing the topic?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
As a favor, I'll ask you to stop spamming the same pictures and bringing this up over and over unless there's something new to add.

Wow, you're friendly one. I re-posted the picture once since you were complaining about us continuing the discussion. It was an over-top picture that was oddly relevant to the discussion so I thought it worth discussing. And it's from material published by GW. What makes your opinion more valid as a fluff source?

And what exactly has your contribution been other than stating your opinion as fact, then complaining about other people discussing the topic?

There's no reason to get angry and try to stoke up a flame here. I was perfectly polite in asking you to stop repeating the same information that had been all but dismissed. I'm sorry if it seemed otherwise.

My contribution? Personally, stimulating a changing narrative in the discussion before it stagnates as it has.

With both of your aggressive points addressed, I trust we can get back on track now? If not, I invite you to message me privately rather than further spam the thread.

 Shidank wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
As a favor, I'll ask you to stop spamming the same pictures and bringing this up over and over unless there's something new to add.

Wow, you're friendly one. I re-posted the picture once since you were complaining about us continuing the discussion. It was an over-top picture that was oddly relevant to the discussion so I thought it worth discussing. And it's from material published by GW. What makes your opinion more valid as a fluff source?

And what exactly has your contribution been other than stating your opinion as fact, then complaining about other people discussing the topic?

There's no reason to get angry and try to stoke up a flame here. I was perfectly polite in asking you to stop repeating the same information that had been all but dismissed. I'm sorry if it seemed otherwise.

My contribution? Personally, stimulating a changing narrative in the discussion before it stagnates as it has.

With both of your aggressive points addressed, I trust we can get back on track now? If not, I invite you to message me privately rather than further spam the thread.

Uh if that was your intention then you failed because there weren't any new posts on the thread for something like three days after your post trying to get us to "focus." And I wasn't the one being aggressive. And no, the picture has been discussed and I was satisfied that an answer from a fluff source could be found.

How about you guys stop arguing on the thread and take it to PM Land. Eh?

What do you guys think about a few dozen Ultramarine descendants actually being from the Iron Warriors Grand Company that didn't go traitor and was at Imperium Secundus?

Let's look at all the signs of a traitor legion being present in modern loyalist chapters(and I'm open to new suggestions):

Heraldry
Methodology of Warfare
Internal Relations
Rituals
War Cry


Blood Ravens are too easy, so let's look for another chapter. Night Reapers are VERY Night Lord-ish, the Red Scorpions have the same geneseed ident flaw as the EC(though this may be due to genetic deviation over the millennia), the SOns of Anteus have been called modern Death Guard.

Past that, let's jump to "what if" town and take a look around. What if the Golden Halos who survived the meatgrinder through tenacity and dogged assault were Death Guard? What if the Red Hunters were actually Luna Wolf(which may add to why they live on an incredibly short Inquisitor leash)? The Desolate Brotherhood/Brotherhood of Misery being Iron Warriors doesn't seem like much of a leap either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:
How about you guys stop arguing on the thread and take it to PM Land. Eh?

What do you guys think about a few dozen Ultramarine descendants actually being from the Iron Warriors Grand Company that didn't go traitor and was at Imperium Secundus?

Already done, good fellow!

And I've considered this before and even wondered if every Word Bearer went down with the ships(though it does seem more likely for THEM to go down with the ship). Iron Warriors in the UM successors would explain the intense variation in tactics by those who operate outside of Ultramar

 dusara217 wrote:
How about you guys stop arguing on the thread and take it to PM Land. Eh?

What do you guys think about a few dozen Ultramarine descendants actually being from the Iron Warriors Grand Company that didn't go traitor and was at Imperium Secundus?

That's what the Silver Skulls may be.

What I would find interesting is a story on Apothecaries or Mechanicus realising their Chapter is made up of gene-seed from several sources, thus they actually don't share one common forefather. Because even if the Silver Skulls aren't IW successors, Loyalists who belonged to Traitor Legions would have had their gene-seed extracted and potentially implanted into new neophytes.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
How about you guys stop arguing on the thread and take it to PM Land. Eh?

What do you guys think about a few dozen Ultramarine descendants actually being from the Iron Warriors Grand Company that didn't go traitor and was at Imperium Secundus?

That's what the Silver Skulls may be.

What I would find interesting is a story on Apothecaries or Mechanicus realising their Chapter is made up of gene-seed from several sources, thus they actually don't share one common forefather. Because even if the Silver Skulls aren't IW successors, Loyalists who belonged to Traitor Legions would have had their gene-seed extracted and potentially implanted into new neophytes.

I could have sworn there was at least one canon chapter that was speculated in universe to have two different (loyalist) primarchs. I forget which one, though.

But yea, most fans believe that if those loyalist Iron Warriors became a chapter, Silver Skulls is the most likely one. They've always been stated to only "claim" to be Ultramarines, their leader Iron Dantioch has an iron mask permanently grafted around his head that looks like the Silver Skulls' icon, and the fact that the Ultramarines like them so much that they consider them honorary Ultramarines would segue easily into the Silver Skulls being claimed to be Ultramarine descendants. It's notable that the Silver Skulls in modern 40k work closely with the Ultramarines too, showing that brotherhood they shared lasted the millenia. (as for the prognostication obsession of the Silver Skulls, it's EXPLICITLY stated that's from the culture of their home world. Thus the "They don't act like Iron Warriors because they're into all that fortune telling prognostication stuff!" argument has already been officially debunked). The whole thing thematically fits, though of course it's all just circumstantial evidence.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
How about you guys stop arguing on the thread and take it to PM Land. Eh?

What do you guys think about a few dozen Ultramarine descendants actually being from the Iron Warriors Grand Company that didn't go traitor and was at Imperium Secundus?

That's what the Silver Skulls may be.

What I would find interesting is a story on Apothecaries or Mechanicus realising their Chapter is made up of gene-seed from several sources, thus they actually don't share one common forefather. Because even if the Silver Skulls aren't IW successors, Loyalists who belonged to Traitor Legions would have had their gene-seed extracted and potentially implanted into new neophytes.

I could have sworn there was at least one canon chapter that was speculated in universe to have two different (loyalist) primarchs. I forget which one, though.

But yea, most fans believe that if those loyalist Iron Warriors became a chapter, Silver Skulls is the most likely one. They've always been stated to only "claim" to be Ultramarines, their leader Iron Dantioch has an iron mask permanently grafted around his head that looks like the Silver Skulls' icon, and the fact that the Ultramarines like them so much that they consider them honorary Ultramarines would segue easily into the Silver Skulls being claimed to be Ultramarine descendants. It's notable that the Silver Skulls in modern 40k work closely with the Ultramarines too, showing that brotherhood they shared lasted the millenia. (as for the prognostication obsession of the Silver Skulls, it's EXPLICITLY stated that's from the culture of their home world. Thus the "They don't act like Iron Warriors because they're into all that fortune telling prognostication stuff!" argument has already been officially debunked). The whole thing thematically fits, though of course it's all just circumstantial evidence.

I could see Steel Clerics having some Word Bearer in the mix.

TiamatRoar wrote:


I could have sworn there was at least one canon chapter that was speculated in universe to have two different (loyalist) primarchs. I forget which one, though.

Relictors Geneseed is supposed to be derived from both the Ultramarines and Dark Angels according to their IA article.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:


I could have sworn there was at least one canon chapter that was speculated in universe to have two different (loyalist) primarchs. I forget which one, though.

Relictors Geneseed is supposed to be derived from both the Ultramarines and Dark Angels according to their IA article.

That's right! I'd forgotten about these guys.