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I honestly feel the whole Blood Ravens debate should have ended the moment GW had a prophet scream about missing Thousand Sons being "Ravens crying tears of blood". However, GW (well, Black Library) has gone even further than that, eventually introducing one of those Thousand Sons as a guy named Arvida (similar name to the Blood Ravens legendary hero) spouting "Knowledge is Power" and coming from a Raven-themed cult of the Thousand Sons, but apparently that doesn't count as solid material compared to Silver Skulls' emblem resembling the Iron Warriors' (although I personally believe in the theory that Silver Skulls are Iron Warriors too. It's just that I find the Blood Ravens to be way more obvious)

The Blood Ravens are so friggin' obvious that some anti-Thousand-Sons-Theory people argued in other threads on this forum that they're TOO obvious, that's how obvious they are! When something's so obvious that people opposed to the theory try to use that obviousness against it, that's some hard-core obviousness there.

It's almost like the Power Girl thing where the artist kept on drawing bigger boobs on her each issue seeing how far they could go until the editors finally noticed. Only in this case the writers keep slamming more and more cues that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons as a game to see how far they can go before people finally stop denying it. (Arvida's still active in the story even as of a recent HH novel, Scars, so I expect the writers intend the game to continue).

Wyzilla wrote:To be fair, the Imperium has stood for ten thousand years, which is longer then the entire history of modern human civilization.

Considering we still know the story of the Trojan War which was passed on via oral tradition for centuries, it seems a fair bet a spacefaring civilization can remember who their genetic father is.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:To be fair, the Imperium has stood for ten thousand years, which is longer then the entire history of modern human civilization.

Considering we still know the story of the Trojan War which was passed on via oral tradition for centuries, it seems a fair bet a spacefaring civilization can remember who their genetic father is.

From a tabletop standpoint, the "forgotten father" cliche is to present mystery and originality. I like it. As a writer, it's dry and lazy. If there was an added element of intrigue to spice it up, much as it may dismay the tabletop leaners, I would actually enjoy it. The wild speculation in this thread alone has been thought provoking and insightful enough to get me thinking on a number of mystery chapters and where their true genetic legacies lie.

The point of the game is fun and what's more fun than engaging one another in passionate debate on the possibilities presented by such an idea of traitor geneseed being in loyal chapters?

In a lot of cases, it's not that they forgot so much as they destroyed the evidence. In these cases though you'd have to wonder just how a Space Marine chapter was capable of destroying so much evidence on a galactic scale. That could be due to the "Sci-Fi writers have no sense of scale" flaw of the authors, I suppose.

I'm trying to recall chapters which forgot their founding fathers as opposed to hints of a cover-up. None come to my mind atm but I wouldn't be surprised if some existed.

Of the ones pointed out in this thread:

Minotaurs: Confidential even to the Inquisition. Described as Chimeric so it's not like they completely forgot, I guess. At least they're aware that it's chimeric? Anyways, covered up by order of the High Lords themselves.

Red Scorpions: Either "forgotten" or "purposefully covered up", with the fluff EXPLICITLY stating the evidence supports the latter theory.

Silver Skulls: They claim they're Ultramarines (the fluff has always explicitly said and pointed out "Claimed, but no proof"). So they didn't forget at all. Whether or not they're lying (and whether or not they know they're lying) is another matter. (popular fan theory is that Gulliman helped cover it up and changed it to Ultramarines)

Crimson Sabres: Purposefully destroyed all the records because they were pissed at all those 1st Founding Chapters lording their founding status over them. Basically a big "F you and your "Oh we are so superior because we are closest generation to our primarchs!" gak!'

Blood Ravens: Evidence is they purposefully destroyed it, especially considering that when a Blood Raven finally did find the answer, he purposefully destroyed it, too!

Carcharodons: I'm not sure Corax even told everyone about these guys when he sent them off in the first place, and they're outside the galaxy for so long that it's not too far fetched that people wouldn't know where they're from. The Carcharodons themselves might remember and simply not be bothering to tell anyone (they're not the most sociable bunch). It's notable that the Imperium (Death Watch, specifically) did analyze their gene-seed and the gene-seed "looks like Raven Guard DNA, with the differences being easily explained and expected by the passage of time"

Storm Wardens: Sealed the records due to the nemesis incident. Although it's notable that there was some really @#$@#$ed up warp-gak or something going on there. Several scribes recorded the Chief Librarian (at least, I think it was the Librarian) narrating what happened within the halls of one of the most secure types of places in the Imperium (a Space Marine fortress) and all of the scribes, despite writing down exactly what the Librarian said, ended up with different and often mutually exclusive recordings.

Sons of Antaeus: Cursed Founding chapter. All sorts of illegal shenanigans meant it was probably covered up.



Sooooo, yea. In all those cases, evidence is they (probably) purposefully covered it up, not forgot about it. (with some added "WTF?" for the Storm Wardens. Carcharodons might be a case of either "never told the Imperium in the first place" or "forgotten by everyone else", but "forgotten" actually makes sense for them considering they're outside the Imperium most of the time. We don't know whether the Carcharodons themselves forgot or not)

If you are are to make this thing into a chapter. Then even the Marines wouldn't be told anyhing. I mean the Dark Angels to have knowledge basically get to hear about the betrayal of someone they trusted..The solutions seems to look at fluff coming from like the Sons of Dorn and the DArk Anges. If they are made from that it would be the biggrst secret. I mean likely only a few people ouitside or even inside this chapter would know about it

The chaphter would be changed and secretive to the nth degree and that knowledge would likely only be privy for the Chapter Masters. Since the secrets you learn as an Aspirant are really low-key stuff where a battle a while ago.

I only read the first two pages and this one. Its pretty obvious, especially with more recent fluff that loyalist traitor legions were forgiven and returned to service after the Heresy and the Gulliman changes. I think the loyalist forces claim to be Ultramarines as there predecessors for several reasons. For one perhaps the UM primarch was the one willing to incorporate the loyalist traitors back into the fold and they hold loyalty to him for that. In addition, since the Ultramarines were the ones who made the changes and created the chapters, then technically they can say it was Gulliman and the Ultramarines and thus avoiding any of the stigma of being originally from the traitor legions.

I haven't read any books with the video game chapter in it so I wont comment there, I think that has been beaten to death anyway.

Silver Skulls- claim ultramarines. During the Heresy, the Iron Warriors were treated as the garrison legion. They were spread hither, thither, and yond, sometimes in as small a group as a squad across the expanse of the Great Crusade. We know many of these did not get the word that they were betraying the Imperium. The Paramar battle is a good example of this when an entire Grand Battalion carries on business as usual before the Alpha Legion attacks and the Iron Warriors help the Imperium. The fact that they were not destroyed, withdrew and "were never heard from again" along with the Silver Skulls heraldry and colors points to an obvious correlation. Not to mention their space assets survived, despite being heavily damaged.

This is an example but it is well known that the Heresy was not as black and white as the original fluff made it out to be. Every legion had its loyalists and traitors. An entire clan or whatever you call group of Space Wolves sided with Horus. I would bet even some Word Bearer units chose to stay loyal. When you are hundred thousand plus strong, spread out across the galaxy, many times in ships for long periods of time out of communication, people are going to get lost in the mix or over looked, it just happens. Towards the end of the Heresy and the scourging, as short handed as the loyalists were, they were going to take all the help they could get.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Blood Ravens aren't loyalist Thousand Sons. That's entirely fan guesswork, while at least the Silver Skulls have more solid material to go off (like their emblem being the near spittin image of the Iron Warriors).

Are you kidding me? GW has done some seriously heavy-handed hinting, and has all but come out and said it.

There are no hints. There was a sentence spoken by a Thousand Son, and people immediately jump on that like it's proof.

Plus the Blood Ravens don't even look like Thousand Sons.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Blood Ravens aren't loyalist Thousand Sons. That's entirely fan guesswork, while at least the Silver Skulls have more solid material to go off (like their emblem being the near spittin image of the Iron Warriors).

Are you kidding me? GW has done some seriously heavy-handed hinting, and has all but come out and said it.

There are no hints. There was a sentence spoken by a Thousand Son, and people immediately jump on that like it's proof.

Plus the Blood Ravens don't even look like Thousand Sons.

Actually, the hints began before the HH character.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Blood Ravens aren't loyalist Thousand Sons. That's entirely fan guesswork, while at least the Silver Skulls have more solid material to go off (like their emblem being the near spittin image of the Iron Warriors).

Are you kidding me? GW has done some seriously heavy-handed hinting, and has all but come out and said it.

There are no hints. There was a sentence spoken by a Thousand Son, and people immediately jump on that like it's proof.

Plus the Blood Ravens don't even look like Thousand Sons.

I dunno... their armor color evokes the pre-Heresy Thousand Sons color scheme (both a dark red, tho the BR don't use the silver bling the TS did) and if they were loyalist TS, they might concievavbly stick with the pre-Heresy colors. Especially since the blue and gold scheme of the post-Heresy TS is more well-known to the Imperium. "We can't be Thousand Sons! Those guys wear blue and gold! We wear red. See? Completely different!"

*shrug*

Anyway, I think it is more likely that the BR were made in the 21st Founding with TS geneseed, rather than them being loyalists left over from the Heresy. I don't see them escaping the Flesh Change for 10,000 years (the Tzeentch curse that nearly destroyed the Legion before the Crusade) but I do see the Admech wondering if they could "fix" the Flesh Change in the TS gene-seed just in time for the 21st Founding.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Plus the Blood Ravens don't even look like Thousand Sons.

Is that really relevant though? The Mortifactors, a Second Founding chapter, look nothing like the Ultramarines for example.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mortifactors
or the Genesis Chapter. Look more like Blood Angels to me.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Genesis_Chapter
or the Brazen Claws. Look nothing like the Iron Hands, chapter symbol included.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Brazen_Claw
etc

Just saying...

Don't some think that the Minotaurs are from World eater gene seed?

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Plus the Blood Ravens don't even look like Thousand Sons.

Is that really relevant though? The Mortifactors, a Second Founding chapter, look nothing like the Ultramarines for example.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Mortifactors
or the Genesis Chapter. Look more like Blood Angels to me.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Genesis_Chapter
or the Brazen Claws. Look nothing like the Iron Hands, chapter symbol included.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Brazen_Claw
etc

Just saying...

I'm talking about facial features. Blood Ravens don't resemble their Primarch at all. They look more like Ultramarines, given that almost all of them look like burly white dudes with receding hairlines. Plus given the odds, they're almost certainly Ultramarines.

 Shidank wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Blood Ravens aren't loyalist Thousand Sons. That's entirely fan guesswork, while at least the Silver Skulls have more solid material to go off (like their emblem being the near spittin image of the Iron Warriors).

Are you kidding me? GW has done some seriously heavy-handed hinting, and has all but come out and said it.

There are no hints. There was a sentence spoken by a Thousand Son, and people immediately jump on that like it's proof.

Plus the Blood Ravens don't even look like Thousand Sons.

Actually, the hints began before the HH character.

Like I said, the debate really should have ended long before that character, when a prophet referred to some sent-away Thousands Sons as "Ravens crying tears of blood for their lost father.", considering how the BLOOD RAVENS are constantly looking for their lost primarch.

At that point, the authors are blatantly either trying to slam it into your face, or are the biggest trolls ever (again, like I said earlier, you know something is blatantly obvious when some people arguing against it say it's because it's too blatantly obvious). The fact that the authors continue to run with it by introducing that character and then continuing to have that character play a role in the story makes the former more and more likely, IMHO (because at that point it stops being a joke and starts being more serious).

Col. Dash wrote:
I only read the first two pages and this one. Its pretty obvious, especially with more recent fluff that loyalist traitor legions were forgiven and returned to service after the Heresy and the Gulliman changes. I think the loyalist forces claim to be Ultramarines as there predecessors for several reasons. For one perhaps the UM primarch was the one willing to incorporate the loyalist traitors back into the fold and they hold loyalty to him for that. In addition, since the Ultramarines were the ones who made the changes and created the chapters, then technically they can say it was Gulliman and the Ultramarines and thus avoiding any of the stigma of being originally from the traitor legions.

I haven't read any books with the video game chapter in it so I wont comment there, I think that has been beaten to death anyway.

Silver Skulls- claim ultramarines. During the Heresy, the Iron Warriors were treated as the garrison legion. They were spread hither, thither, and yond, sometimes in as small a group as a squad across the expanse of the Great Crusade. We know many of these did not get the word that they were betraying the Imperium. The Paramar battle is a good example of this when an entire Grand Battalion carries on business as usual before the Alpha Legion attacks and the Iron Warriors help the Imperium. The fact that they were not destroyed, withdrew and "were never heard from again" along with the Silver Skulls heraldry and colors points to an obvious correlation. Not to mention their space assets survived, despite being heavily damaged.

This is an example but it is well known that the Heresy was not as black and white as the original fluff made it out to be. Every legion had its loyalists and traitors. An entire clan or whatever you call group of Space Wolves sided with Horus. I would bet even some Word Bearer units chose to stay loyal. When you are hundred thousand plus strong, spread out across the galaxy, many times in ships for long periods of time out of communication, people are going to get lost in the mix or over looked, it just happens. Towards the end of the Heresy and the scourging, as short handed as the loyalists were, they were going to take all the help they could get.

Most people suspect the Silver Skulls are from Barabas Dantioch's group of Iron Warriors. Barabas himself has a permanent mask forged onto him which looks like the Silver Skulls symbol, and the last novel he and his band appeared in, they became so buddy-buddy with the Ultramarines that the Ultramarines considered them to be one of them.

Ultramarines consider some loyalist Iron Warriors to be Ultramarines, and Silver Skulls claim to be Ultramarines successors.... makes sense to me. *shrug*

 Wyzilla wrote:
I'm talking about facial features. Blood Ravens don't resemble their Primarch at all. They look more like Ultramarines, given that almost all of them look like burly white dudes with receding hairlines. Plus given the odds, they're almost certainly Ultramarines.

Most geneseed does not change facial features and the ones that do are considered the oddballs. Salamanders, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Luna Wolves. It's the planet being recruited from that defines a chapter's primary facial features in other cases.

jareddm wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
I'm talking about facial features. Blood Ravens don't resemble their Primarch at all. They look more like Ultramarines, given that almost all of them look like burly white dudes with receding hairlines. Plus given the odds, they're almost certainly Ultramarines.

Most geneseed does not change facial features and the ones that do are considered the oddballs. Salamanders, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Luna Wolves. It's the planet being recruited from that defines a chapter's primary facial features in other cases.

I honestly wish I could have found exactly where I read this, but I believe it was written in BL literature that if the aspirant has traits similar to the Primarch, the geneseed will pronounce those features over other development. This follows why many legionnaires looked alike and they all seemed to mirror their primarch. They were all from the same world, sometimes the same regions, and the differences between themselves and Terrans was huge. In 40k, with so many chapters drawing from so many worlds, the genetic diversity alone means unless you have a plain faced white guy (Row-boat Girly-man), everyone will deviate significantly from their primarch.

 Archie The Death Rider wrote:
Don't some think that the Minotaurs are from World eater gene seed?

It's just fan wishful thinking and straw grasping. Same theory has been tossed around about the Space Sharks from time to time.

If you can justify it well enough, I don't see a problem.

The men who handle the geneseed have done far stupider things. The Corrupted Founding was entirely super-tinkered Geneseed that basically blew up in their face with how badly it failed. I don't see why a chapter rooted in a partially corrupt (or loyalist traitor sample) geneseed isn't feasible considering how much they could modify/work in it.

I'd say per usual everything GW, it varies on a gak ton of factors. Not everything is black/white or locked in stone. If you can get creative with it (and do it well/justify it well) then do it.

They probably would, but they would also intentionally delete all records.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Archie The Death Rider wrote:
Don't some think that the Minotaurs are from World eater gene seed?

It's just fan wishful thinking and straw grasping. Same theory has been tossed around about the Space Sharks from time to time.

It's mainly because their combat styles and culture seem to match those traitor legions with the actual primarchs of them being explicitly unknown. In both cases, however, while the primarchs were unknown, the Imperium (the not-so-classified guys in it, at least) did manage to analyze the gene-seed (unlike the Red Scorpions). Minotaurs is "chimeric" (IE, consists of multiple chapters combined. That doesn't rule out the World Eaters, of course, but does rule out ONLY being World Eaters) and Carcharodons have lots of traits that only Raven Guard gene-seed is known to have (and IA13 also makes it blatantly obvious by showing the Carcharodon helmet and a bunch of Raven Guard wearing Carcharodon colors sent to the fringes of the galaxy by Corax. But... like ravens crying tears of blood, that's probably not good enough for a lot of people). The Red Scorpions thing is the same.

Sons of Antaeus are at least explicitly acknowledged to have the possibility in-universe, though, so it does show the idea/possibility isn't entirely unknown to GW.

 Wyzilla wrote:
I'm talking about facial features. Blood Ravens don't resemble their Primarch at all. They look more like Ultramarines, given that almost all of them look like burly white dudes with receding hairlines. Plus given the odds, they're almost certainly Ultramarines.

Fair enough. But there isn't much evidence the Silver Skulls look more like the Iron Warriors than any other chapter. Also the burly white dudes would also apply to the Iron Fists, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc.

jareddm wrote:
Most geneseed does not change facial features and the ones that do are considered the oddballs. Salamanders, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, Luna Wolves. It's the planet being recruited from that defines a chapter's primary facial features in other cases.

Yea that's what I thought as well. You're implanting recruits with new organs but you're not building them from scratch.

 Shidank wrote:
I honestly wish I could have found exactly where I read this, but I believe it was written in BL literature that if the aspirant has traits similar to the Primarch, the geneseed will pronounce those features over other development. This follows why many legionnaires looked alike and they all seemed to mirror their primarch. They were all from the same world, sometimes the same regions, and the differences between themselves and Terrans was huge. In 40k, with so many chapters drawing from so many worlds, the genetic diversity alone means unless you have a plain faced white guy (Row-boat Girly-man), everyone will deviate significantly from their primarch.

I think that's mostly the Alpha Legion or in one case, Little Horus (though I think there were more look-alikes in the chapter). I can see how your features might change to resemble your primarch (Salamanders for example) but it's the exception rather than the rule. And it doesn't change all your primary features. Otherwise the Thousand Sons would all have red skin and flowing red hair.

Wait, I just realized I've never actually seen a picture or read a description of what a Thousand Son looks like. Don't tell me they all had red skin and hair, and were all giants??

TiamatRoar wrote:
Minotaurs is "chimeric" (IE, consists of multiple chapters combined. That doesn't rule out the World Eaters, of course, but does rule out ONLY being World Eaters) and Carcharodons have lots of traits that only Raven Guard gene-seed is known to have (and IA13 also makes it blatantly obvious by showing the Carcharodon helmet and a bunch of Raven Guard wearing Carcharodon colors sent to the fringes of the galaxy by Corax.

Presume you mean Extermination, and not IA13?

 EngulfedObject wrote:
I think that's mostly the Alpha Legion or in one case, Little Horus (though I think there were more look-alikes in the chapter). I can see how your features might change to resemble your primarch (Salamanders for example) but it's the exception rather than the rule. And it doesn't change all your primary features. Otherwise the Thousand Sons would all have red skin and flowing red hair.

Wait, I just realized I've never actually seen a picture or read a description of what a Thousand Son looks like. Don't tell me they all had red skin and hair, and were all giants??

The Salamanders black skin and eyes is due to a reaction between Nocturne's sun and their gene-seed, afaik, so that's indirect. But as mentioned above, the other Legions/Chapters do sometimes change slightly to look more like their genetic forefather, which is rather plausible.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
I'm talking about facial features. Blood Ravens don't resemble their Primarch at all. They look more like Ultramarines, given that almost all of them look like burly white dudes with receding hairlines. Plus given the odds, they're almost certainly Ultramarines.

Fair enough. But there isn't much evidence the Silver Skulls look more like the Iron Warriors than any other chapter. Also the burly white dudes would also apply to the Iron Fists, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc.

Well, Blood Angels are the pretty boys with long, luscious locks of blonde hair, so they definitely aint bald, just look at Corbulo.

Wait, I just realized I've never actually seen a picture or read a description of what a Thousand Son looks like. Don't tell me they all had red skin and hair, and were all giants??

There are no actual descriptions of the TS Phenotypes aside from Psyker-ness. However, if the TS were unusual, it would have been mentioned in either A Thousand Sons, or the Burning of Prospero

 dusara217 wrote:
Well, Blood Angels are the pretty boys with long, luscious locks of blonde hair, so they definitely aint bald, just look at Corbulo.

Oh I don't mean bald necessarily. I was just meant the white and receding hairline thing. The Blood Angels aren't really exempt. In the grim darkness of the far future, no one is exempt from receding hairlines! NO ONE!

 ChazSexington wrote:
[The Salamanders black skin and eyes is due to a reaction between Nocturne's sun and their gene-seed, afaik, so that's indirect. But as mentioned above, the other Legions/Chapters do sometimes change slightly to look more like their genetic forefather, which is rather plausible.

Yea their looks changing to resemble their genetic forefather is possible but it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. There's no mention of the Thousand Sons looking like Magnus for example.

None of the named Dark Angels really resemble the Lion either.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Well, Blood Angels are the pretty boys with long, luscious locks of blonde hair, so they definitely aint bald, just look at Corbulo.

Oh I don't mean bald necessarily. I was just meant the white and receding hairline thing. The Blood Angels aren't really exempt. In the grim darkness of the far future, no one is exempt from receding hairlines! NO ONE!

 ChazSexington wrote:
[The Salamanders black skin and eyes is due to a reaction between Nocturne's sun and their gene-seed, afaik, so that's indirect. But as mentioned above, the other Legions/Chapters do sometimes change slightly to look more like their genetic forefather, which is rather plausible.

Yea their looks changing to resemble their genetic forefather is possible but it doesn't necessarily have to be the case. There's no mention of the Thousand Sons looking like Magnus for example.

None of the named Dark Angels really resemble the Lion either.

I feel like we're spending too much time on the looks of Space Marines. Like I said earlier, I believe the only correlation drawn between Primarch appearance and Space Marine appearance is that features already shared will be more prominent(pale=paler, blond=blonder, black=blacker, etc.).

=P Let's focus!

Guys, look what I found! There really are Thousand Sons that look just like Magnus! What the feth??

This is from the Horus Heresy: Collected Visions on pg 168. The tag is "The Scarab Occult * Magnus's Veterans * Franz Vohwinkel"

You can also find it uploaded here:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Fall_of_Prospero



It's the only depiction I could find on what a Thousand Sons legionnaire might look like under the helmet. So I guess this is either a fluke or Space Marines really do take on their Primarch's features. This is a bit extreme though. I didn't think the average Astartes would take on their primarch's features to this extent. Otherwise all Dark Angels would have flowing golden hair, etc.

That is way too much artistic leeway.

Ssssooooo... you know better than GW what should be in GW's fluff? Interesting.

Look, GW excels at keeping things vague so you can fill in the gaps any way you like. They did it with two 'lost legions'. They did it for a long time with the Legion of the Damned. There are a metric ton of chapters who don't know which Primarch their gene seed is attributed to,

If you want to play at being descended from a traitor legion have at it. Don't let someone ruin your fun by pointing at a notoriously vague and imprecise (by design) canon.

Could some Inquisitor have laid his mitts on traitor gene seed and inserted it into the process of creating a new chapter for his own nefarious purposes? Sure, but rest assured that that Inquisitor, his protogees and their protogees are keeping a close watch on that chapter for signs of corruption. Unless they're Istavaanians or Xanthites, of course.

Could some Mechanicum functionary have made 'purifying' traitor gene seed his life's work? Sure, and if he did he'd certainly want to give his 'perfected' gene seed a trial run at some point. It's an easy matter for the Mechanicum, which controls gene seed for purity, to introduce their own special combination of herbs and spices into the creation of a new chapter.

Could the High Lords have actually ordered such an experiment? Could be, if you assume the Emperor's handiwork is sacred and without flaw. It would be easy to assume that the gene seed was corrupted by nurture not their (created) nature.

I think we can take a hint from the Legion's performances before they were reunited with their Primarchs. Some of them (1K Sons) had persistent pre-Primarch issues. Some issues were resolved by their Primarchs. Others were made worse when they joined the Primarch and their 'home worlds'.

Were World Eaters berserker nut-cases without their Primarch and his Butcher's Nails? The Legion had a tendency for violence, but Angron expanded on it.

Were Blood Angels prone to Black Rage/Red Thirst through pure genetics, or is it the radioactive wastes of Baal that bring out that tendency? In this case it may be a case of Primarch death issues; one might assume that pre-Heresy gene seed would be 'purer', even for this Loyalist Chapter.

Without Alpharius/Omegron are Alpha Legionnaires still Alpha Legionnaires? I rather think this one is clearly a case of training and indoctrination rather than pure genetics, but that's just me speculating. Now, if that gene seed had a predilection toward subterfuge, might that not be an attractive trait for a Chapter?

or even...

In today's Imperium Word Bearers would actually fit in rather nicely. Without the Emperor to reprimand them, and in a theocratic dictatorship, the temptation to wander off in search of 'true divinity' would not be a thing. If some Eccclesiarchy pogue got access to the gene seed banks they might very well want to see a Chapter of religious zealots a la Black Templars created.

One might go so far as to consider it one's duty to recreate the original Legions 'as they should have been', without flaws induced by home worlds and Primarchs, in order to complete the Emperor's Holy Work... walking in His footsteps so to speak.

With a little thought you can make almost any story in the Grimdark believable. IF you take the time to think through rationales and likely outcomes instead of snorting Matt Ward crack and putting the 'Rule of Cool' above everything else.

After all, one man's cool is another man's putrescence.

If you're going to invest in traitor legions or lost legions or some other 'out there' concept you should probably submit your offering to the harshest critics - here, for example - and let them punch holes in your proposed background. Deal with the most egregious issues and you'll probably have some fluff worth sharing around, without falling into the 'fanboy' trap.

My two teef.

While I agree with the whole filling the gaps thing I'm just amazed there's actually art of mini-Magnuses running around. It's significant because it would actually rule out the Blood Ravens having Thousand Sons geneseed. Course it might just be a fluke since it seems to be the only illustration of its kind.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
While I agree with the whole filling the gaps thing I'm just amazed there's actually art of mini-Magnuses running around. It's significant because it would actually rule out the Blood Ravens having Thousand Sons geneseed. Course it might just be a fluke since it seems to be the only illustration of its kind.

Since we keep ignoring this, I'll bring it up again:

Geneseed does not seem to make a carbon copy of a Primarch. It seems to rather expound on traits already present that are shared with the primarch. If you already had long blond hair, I'm sure Sanguinius's geneseed would make it more luxurious than ever. If you were already a red-headed stepchild, Magnus would make you more gingery than ever before.

Geneseed is not a cloning mechanism.

 Shidank wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
While I agree with the whole filling the gaps thing I'm just amazed there's actually art of mini-Magnuses running around. It's significant because it would actually rule out the Blood Ravens having Thousand Sons geneseed. Course it might just be a fluke since it seems to be the only illustration of its kind.

Since we keep ignoring this, I'll bring it up again:

Geneseed does not seem to make a carbon copy of a Primarch. It seems to rather expound on traits already present that are shared with the primarch. If you already had long blond hair, I'm sure Sanguinius's geneseed would make it more luxurious than ever. If you were already a red-headed stepchild, Magnus would make you more gingery than ever before.

Geneseed is not a cloning mechanism.

And you seem to be ignoring this.


I never said gene-seed results in a carbon copy. In fact I was saying the appearance of the Blood Ravens has little to do on whether or not they do have traitor gene-seed (since the features should primarily stem from the recruits). Then I realized no one here actually knows what a Thousand Sons marine looks like so I found an illustration from the Horus Heresy artbook.

Last I checked the topic was about chapters made from tratior gene-seed... which includes the Blood Ravens. So you'll excuse me if I ignore what you said when we have angry Magnus clones staring us in the face.