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da001; you are my hero, and your well written and sourced arguments should be an inspiration to all 40k background threads everywhere.

But this is starting to look like a game of Ork "Rokk Paper Scissors", where everyone just picks Rokk and then socks the other ork in the head to win. (In plain language, flipping unproductive)

 da001 wrote:

It is always nice to see a poster who isn't too lazy to check their codices for the information to prove their case (Like me, for example).

Exalted.

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
da001; you are my hero, and your well written and sourced arguments should be an inspiration to all 40k background threads everywhere.

But this is starting to look like a game of Ork "Rokk Paper Scissors", where everyone just picks Rokk and then socks the other ork in the head to win. (In plain language, flipping unproductive)

Agreed his post was impressive gave him a +1 too.

A rudimentary intelligence is enough to be evil. It shows that they CAN think, even if basically.

Hurricanes, floods, fires, normal non-warp-related landscapes, etc, do NOT have a rudimentary intelligence. Therefore you've basically proven that yes, they ARE evil. Whether they are warp hurricanes, warp landscapes, or warp mansons, they still have a rudimentary intelligence and thus choose to do the things they do. Hence they are evil. Stupidity is not an excuse.

Here are some quotes from a forum about another character in response to arguing that a character isn't evil just because he isn't very intelligent.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188653

I'm following the discussion on Enor next forum over, and many people find him "sweet" and "heartwarming". I haven't seen anything to support that; I just see him as having a low int score.

Thinking about it, the same thing is true of Thog -- he was homicidal. To the best of my knowledge he never questioned the murders Nale made him participate in, never expressed remorse for any evil act, and to the best of my knowledge never performed a good one.

Thog was chaotic evil and Enor *may* be evil. We haven't seen him long enough to know whether he's evil or neutral.

And yet, people find him cute and are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt -- and I am, as well, to some extent -- because they're doing what they're told. Ganjii is doing the thinking for Enor. Nale did the thinking for Thog.

And yet.

And yet it occurs to me that evil doesn't have to be smart to be evil. One of the classic villain templates is the thug -- the not-too-smart musclebound oaf who kills people for fun. The classic henchman.

So my question is, from the D&D perspective, when does the stupid henchman of an evil villain himself become evil? At what point does "just following orders" or "too dumb to know better" stop you from alignment-shifting, if you start off as neutral?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

"We were just following orders" is not a claim to innocence. It is an admittence of guilt. It explains why they did the action in question, but the action was still performed by them and for that, they can be held accountable.

Enor and Thog, though they may not have the highest INT or WIS stats, can still say no to Ganji or Nale.

obeying any and all orders with out question is lawful neutral.

choosing not to follow an evil order is a good act. Thog probably is evil because he enjoys killing

What makes Elan good-aligned is that he genuinely cares about other people, to the point that he sees his own life and safety as pretty close to inconsequential. Thog, on the other hand, sees other people as toys to play with and little else. If Thog wants a puppy, Thog will turn a random unsuspecting blacksmith into a puppy, and who cares if the blacksmith considers it to be torture? Thog has a puppy; therefore Thog is happy.

It's not the level of intelligence you have; it's how you use what you've got. Elan uses his limited resources to pick good, trustworthy people to do the thinking for him. Thog picks people who will let him have the ice-cream, sprinkles, and random slaughter he thinks are fun.

Pretty much applies to the chaos gods completely. It's in Thog's nature to see things as cute puppies and enjoy killing for the hell of it. He's too stupid to think otherwise. He's still evil. Just like the chaos gods, who's nature is to kill everyone, are still evil for following it (though the Chaos gods have shown in the fluff that they're smarter than Thog. That just makes it worse).

It's Actions, not "IQ level" that determines whether someone is Good, Neutral or Evil. Think Monty Python here for a moment: Sure that rabbit is cute, fluffy, if a simple creature... but if it turns out to be a "vorpal rabbit" with a taste for human flesh... Forget how innocent looking it may look or stupid it maybe! Bring out the Holy Hand Grenades!

In practice probably not as continuing to show a willingness to obey evil orders will make you Lawful Evil, not Lawful Neutral. You are still responsible for your own actions. And no, refusing to do Evil doesn't make you Good as Good under D&D definition is not an absence of Evil.

(in this case, the chaos gods aren't showing a willingness to obey evil orders but instead are showing a willingness to continue perpetuating evil acts in their nature, even though they've shown in the fluff that they are capable of holding back or stopping if they choose. Or at least not being jerks for the sake of being jerks, which they usually end up doing anyways, but not always, again showing their free will)

From another thread on the same subject:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64901

Thog will whistle and think about puppies while he puts an axe through an innocent person. That's evil. End of story. Think about it, someone who will murder and can't sleep that night has a shred of good in them. Someone who will murder and sleep well that night and go for ice cream is totally evil.

Applies to the chaos gods too. They murder and sleep well at night (IE, don't feel guilty about what they do) and laugh about it afterwards (Warhammer 40k's tagling describes them as laughing, for crying out loud). That's evil.

The chaos gods are intelligent enough. Again, it's confirmed they have a rudimentary intelligence from the quotes from RoC that was just posted in this thread. NORMAL HURRICANES AND LANDSCAPES DO NOT HAVE A RUDIMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. THAT is the major difference between why hurricanes aren't evil and a being such as Chaos with an actual intelligence, rudimentary or not, IS.

40k is a universe without good or evil, any attempt to moralize or demonize will fail because of this.

Only Chaos argues that there's no good or evil. Both the Tau and the Imperium do claim it does, and sometimes even try to follow what they sincerely believe is good. Regardless of whether or not they succeed at that (IE, whether or not they're evil too), by their own definitions (which honestly aren't really portrayed THAT differently from most peoples' definitions of good and evil besides the fantastic racism and some things that don't apply to the real world such as doing what you need to survive in a galaxy where daemonic corruption is real) and the majority of moral standards today, Chaos is definitely evil.

Arguing whether there's such a thing as good or evil in the first place is moving the goal posts anyways. The topic title is "Chaos, not as evil as you thought". Therefore for this topic to exist, good and evil for the sake of discussion exist, and arguing otherwise is off-topic or a tangent at best, and belongs in a different thread.

@LoyalistAlphaLegion: thanks! Yes I noticed what you said. Doesn´t matter, I enjoy searching stuff in the background.
@Void__Dragon: thanks!
@shinros: thanks!

TiamatRoar wrote:

The chaos gods are intelligent enough. Again, it's confirmed they have a rudimentary intelligence from the quotes from RoC that was just posted in this thread. NORMAL HURRICANES AND LANDSCAPES DO NOT HAVE A RUDIMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. THAT is the major difference between why hurricanes aren't evil and a being such as Chaos with an actual intelligence, rudimentary or not, IS.

A bee has rudimentary intelligence.
A bacteria has rudimentary intelligence.

An even better example: a wolf that is starving has rudimentary intelligence. If it meets a baby it will kill and feed on it. According to your reasoning that would be evil, but it is not.

It is in its nature. Wolves need to feed and humans are not their kin. The Chaos Gods are not humans, they feed on humans, they need to do that things you call evil or they will die of starvation. Why should they care about humans? Do you care about your food? Will you starve yourself to death for the sake of your food?

They are barely conscious beings with a rudimentary intelligence that are forced to do what they do because they are made of raw emotions and do not have any reason to be nice to a human even if they were not forever starving. How can they be “evil”?

Which brings another question: are you evil if you eat a fried chicken? Chickens are living things. They suffer. For me, the answer is no. I am not a chicken, I feed on chickens. That´s in my nature. But this is just an opinion. Lots of people would say that the Chaos Gods are evil because they feed on human´s emotions, just like humans who eat chickens are evil. They are called “vegetarians”.

And lots of people would brand entities like Violence, Strife or Death evil, because they consider that there are feelings or things that can be evil even if they lack intelligence or consciousness. In the dictionary you can find examples like: “the evil effects of a bad diet”. Some people in this thread see the problem this way. And if this is their definition of evil, I guess the Chaos Gods are evil for them.

Also, it is funny that you used a D&D example, because D&D copy-pasted the Chaos/Law scale of Moorcock, just like GW. Alignment in D&D is a categorization of the ethical (Law/Chaos axis) and moral (Good/Evil axis) perspective. It is perfectly possible to be Law + Evil or Chaos + Good. I don´t know who is this Thog, but, for your description, he is Lawful Evil: "I followed orders". Which is not the case of a starving wolf, a Chaos God, a bee, an earthquake, me eating a fried chicken or a virus. In D&D, Chaos (and Law) is out of the scale, and thus truly neutral. Which is the point I am trying to make.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Just like the chaos gods, who's nature is to kill everyone, are still evil for following it

Wrong. Many people keep repeating it as a mantra, but it is wrong. Killing everyone will kill them of starvation, and they do not care about humans. See quotes 3.1 and 3.2 of my previous post. And Nurgle is a god of life and laughter, it loves everything. See quote 4.3. The nature of Nurgle is love and life forever for everyone. Death is change, and Nurgle hates change.

Kaesoron wrote:
40k is a universe without good or evil

On the contrary, Chaos believes there is good and evil.

And they believe themselves firmly on the side of evil, as well.

TiamatRoar wrote:

The chaos gods are intelligent enough. Again, it's confirmed they have a rudimentary intelligence from the quotes from RoC that was just posted in this thread. NORMAL HURRICANES AND LANDSCAPES DO NOT HAVE A RUDIMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. THAT is the major difference between why hurricanes aren't evil and a being such as Chaos with an actual intelligence, rudimentary or not, IS.

A bee has rudimentary intelligence.
A bacteria has rudimentary intelligence.

An even better example: a wolf that is starving has rudimentary intelligence. If it meets a baby it will kill and feed on it. According to your reasoning that would be evil, but it is not.

 Melissia wrote:

Kaesoron wrote:
40k is a universe without good or evil

On the contrary, Chaos believes there is good and evil.

And they believe themselves firmly on the side of evil, as well.

Chaos itself?
The Chaos Gods?
Or some Champion of Chaos?

TiamatRoar wrote:
A rudimentary intelligence is enough to be evil. It shows that they CAN think, even if basically.
...
Applies to the chaos gods too. They murder and sleep well at night (IE, don't feel guilty about what they do) and laugh about it afterwards (Warhammer 40k's tagling describes them as laughing, for crying out loud). That's evil.

The chaos gods are intelligent enough. Again, it's confirmed they have a rudimentary intelligence from the quotes from RoC that was just posted in this thread. NORMAL HURRICANES AND LANDSCAPES DO NOT HAVE A RUDIMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. THAT is the major difference between why hurricanes aren't evil and a being such as Chaos with an actual intelligence, rudimentary or not, IS.

I'm gonna hijack a quote from da001, which he got from the Chaos codex:
“Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or causality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds. It lies on the other side of dreams and nightmares, infinite in scope but without form or structure. This realm is composed of love and hate, fear and hope, ambition and despair, and yet is an uncaring, emotionless void.”

I don't think we're even fit to pass judgement on the state of Chaos and its/their morality. We can damn them as evil, but we don't know why or how. What we know as rules and law mean nothing to them, and vise versa. We can't begin to even fathom how they think; what flickers of action we deem intelligent may just be our perception of it.
From my (albeit limited) understanding, rudimentary intelligence does not make an entity sentient or sapient. Animals (particularly dogs, dolphins, apes and the like) all have degrees of intelligence, but are not sapient. A dog cannot be evil, but can feel emotion and be excited. Apes and monkeys laugh but also fall below the curve of sapience and so also get a pass from being ear-marked evil.

(So as to not spark a flame war I'll be broad in the following assertion, but please understand the following lump of argument is not made for the sake of offense or intended to be seen as rude or "trolly".)
The old theist cop-out argument for why there is suffering in the world but supposedly also a benevolent, omnipotent god is "God moves in mysterious ways". Putting aside that can of necron scarabs, let's take note of the cop-out itself. That is a bonafide acknowledgement that we have NOOO idea why some things happen, and ascribe it to the will of God (or gods, dealer's choice) anyway. We don't know how gods work, we don't know what they feel or how they think because they are so far beyond our ability to imagine. How could we declare them evil when their actions may mean entirely different things, or that the result wasn't what they intended. If Slaanesh has a hiccup and two whole solar systems suddenly have an orgy/rebellion, how is that evil? A man lights a cigarette and half the sidewalk turns into crack-cocaine. Everyone says it's his fault, but it wasn't intended and he had no control over the result, can't be evil right? A flying monkey (with rudimentary intelligence) flaps its wings, two hurricanes, a typhoon, and a new Bustin Jeaver concert spring into existence. Evil? Nay.

Lastly (until I feel the burning urge to post more wasted words ), I don't know if the Chaos Gods have any emotions of their own. Yes, Khorne is known for his bloodlust, Slaanesh his desires, Nurgle his mirth, and Tzeentch his naked ambition... but that's how we interpret them. Radical thought here, what if the Warp spawned powerhouses are effectively mindless? I think that they are just massive puppets, caricatures of a small set of emotions or thoughts. They are just fonts of power cloaked in a single set of emotions/desires, and their every move in the Great Game is dictated by that burning need. The Daemons of Tzeentch are famous for crowing that "Fate is predetermined" or "There is no escaping destiny!". As they are but slivers of Tzeentch's own power, what if their mockery of mortals is in fact a bitter attempt to drag them DOWN to Tzeentch's level? He has no choice, no free-will, he must scheme and horde power because that's what his programming (for lack of a better term) allows him. Khorne can't agree to duels to first blood only, the bloodlust and wrath of trillions upon trillions of living things force him into that state. Ditto Nurgle and Slaanesh (but in their own ways).

Short and Sweet version:
1) Chaos is Gods, we can't possibly know why they do things or compare them to our own level of morals accurately
2) Rudimentary intelligence doesn't make them aware enough to be capable of evil (babies laugh all the time, but I'm pretty sure they're not much beyond 'rudimentary' in intelligence)
3) The Chaos Gods may have no control over their own actions; just powerful beyond the scope of mortal understanding and slaved to a single punch card of wants and needs.

TiamatRoar wrote:
However, the Chaos gods do a LOT of their acts for entertainment or for "glory" (GLORY TO CHAOS! and all that), which is something a wolf eating a baby because it's starving does NOT do.

The Chaos Gods care nothing for glory. You are talking about humans serving Chaos as its champions. I quoted you the motivations of the Chaos Gods. They are made of emotions, they are barely conscious, how could they do things for glory?

Keep in mind that the Codex itself describes the Chaos Gods as tales, legends and metaphors... that´s the way humanity tries to grasp what the gods are. Before GW, the ancient Greek (and every single human society) did the same.

They're not forced to do what they do. Fluff has several cases where they've shown they can hold back or plan around things as needed.

A metaphor, a tale. I already quoted you the lines.

"Violence, strife, and death" don't have a rudimentary intelligence.

In the setting, they do. Violence is called "Khorne". “He is wrath incarnate, the embodiment of a never-ending lust to dominate and destroy.” Khorne is an emotion. Is not a physical being like you and me.

Chaos isn't chaotic neutral. Chaotic neutral in D&D generally is nearly completely random. Chaos in WH40k however consistently perpetuates evil acts. That's chaotic evil, not chaotic neutral and definately not chaotic good.

My point was: both D&D and GW took this from the same source. The Codex: Chaos Daemons go to great lengths to explain that Chaos is neutral: almost lacking intelligence, will starve if stopped, lacking consciousness...

Except Nurgle doesn't love everything. As stated in the daemon codex (so it's not Imperial propaganda), even "Nurgle's generosity has limits" when he denied those Eldar the cure to his disease. Again, HIS GENEROSITY HAS LIMITS WHEN HE DENIED THE CURE, showing he KNEW they wanted it but denied it because his generosity had limits. It's not "He was generous to them by letting them have his disease without the cure!" It was "He was NOT generous to them because he refused to let them have the cure."

So it did an evil thing. He was trying to be good but "his generosity has limits". Did you just say that Nurgle is a good guy (generous) but not infinitely good so "his generosity has limits"? This is quite far from the "his nature is to kill" you posted before.

No wait. This is just a metaphor. It is not a good, generous entity. It has no generosity.

The chaos gods' (Nurgle in this case) "rudimentary" intelligence FAR exceeds a wolf or a bee. If you told them they were only as intelligent as a wolf or bee, they'd probably transform you into a chaos spawn or find some other way to kill you horrifically if they got the chance.

Why? Do you think they care about what a human? See quote 3.2. The Chaos Gods do not listen.

Slaanesh feeling that the masque was insulting his pride and flying into a rage is FAR beyond what a wolf or bee can do.

And Eris (Strife) throwing that apple and thus starting the war of Troy just for fun proves that the gods the ancient Greek worshipped are Evil.
No.

 da001 wrote:

The Chaos Gods care nothing for glory. You are talking about humans serving Chaos as its champions. I quoted you the motivations of the Chaos Gods. They are made of emotions, they are barely conscious, how could they do things for glory?

Keep in mind that the Codex itself describes the Chaos Gods as tales, legends and metaphors... that´s the way humanity tries to grasp what the gods are. Before GW, the ancient Greek (and every single human society) did the same.

They're not forced to do what they do. Fluff has several cases where they've shown they can hold back or plan around things as needed.

A metaphor, a tale. I already quoted you the lines.

"Violence, strife, and death" don't have a rudimentary intelligence.

In the setting, they do. Violence is called "Khorne". “He is wrath incarnate, the embodiment of a never-ending lust to dominate and destroy.” Khorne is an emotion. Is not a physical being like you and me.

 da001 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Kaesoron wrote:
40k is a universe without good or evil

On the contrary, Chaos believes there is good and evil.

And they believe themselves firmly on the side of evil, as well.

Chaos itself?
The Chaos Gods?
Or some Champion of Chaos?

She is referring to their mortal servants, who are usually quite evil.

 LoyalistAlphaLegion wrote:
"God moves in mysterious ways".

A concept that also appears in the Chaos religion. Did you fight well? Ok that generates a lot of emotion, lots of warp power to you. Oh look you are now a spawn.

The Chaos Gods do not really care. Their "mysterious ways" and "whims" are random acts of a moronic, yet powerful, cosmic entity.

Radical thought here, what if the Warp spawned powerhouses are effectively mindless? I think that they are just massive puppets, caricatures of a small set of emotions or thoughts. They are just fonts of power cloaked in a single set of emotions/desires, and their every move in the Great Game is dictated by that burning need.

I think this is exactly what the background says... or hints, given that after saying that it starts saying things depicting the gods as human-like entities. The word here is "anthropomorphism". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

That´s what these tales are, an attempt to grasp what Chaos is by mere mortals.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

She is referring to their mortal servants, who are usually quite evil.

Which is a completely different point.

I think the average citizen of a Chaos world is OK. Most Chaos Space Marines (not all of them) and all Champions of Chaos dedicate their lives to feed humans to the gods in order to gain personal benefits. That´s evil.

 da001 wrote:

Chaos itself?
The Chaos Gods?
Or some Champion of Chaos?

"Chaos Itself" is defined by the gods. But yes, the gods themselves embrace evil and care about little else. The most devoted worshipers of Chaos reflect the god they follow.

Perhaps you can argue that the Chaos Gods have little more than the mindsets of bickering children who cannot understand tha other peoples' desires matter (which says nothing good about them, so you would be denigrating them in trying to defend them). I don't buy that argument, however; and in adults, we call that lack of caring for other peoples' desires and needs... sociopathy.

TiamatRoar wrote:
By your own twisted definition,

It is not "my" twisted definition. You do not see bees, cancer, the angel of Death or earthquakes being legally prosecuted, not frequently at least. And if you take cocaine through an airport and you can prove you didn´t know it was there and it is not yours, you are not punished. The intention is needed for something to be evil for a lot of people. It is not only me.

And that's why Khorne is evil while in the real world, Violence, Strife, and Death (the concepts) are not. Because Khorne has rudimentary intelligence.(...)

In the Greek mythology, Violence and Death have intelligence. And in every single culture ever to exist. War and Death, the riders of the Apocalypse, have intelligence, and they are pretty clearly a copy-paste of ancient gods. You can believe or not believe in them in the real life, but in 40k they are real.

The greek gods were evil as hell. Although not as evil as the Chaos gods.

Also, starting a war just for fun IS evil and DOES prove that Eris is evil. In this case, "God of Strife" may as well be called "God of evil" too because both are the same thing (causing pain and suffering because it's fun).

By your own twisted definition, the chaos gods could be gods of evil (which is what they basically are, given the acts they perpetuate and endorse) and still not be evil just because being evil is their nature. Except by definition, something who's nature is to do evil (which is the acts the chaos gods do and relish in) is evil, because that's what evil IS.

That´s an opinion many people have. Your reasoning is not flawed, and I cannot debate it. You say Strife is evil because she does "evil" things, even if she is an emotion and thus absolutely unable to do any other thing, even if she is a concept, and the story a tale, a legend, a metaphor. I do not share your opinion, because my definition of "evil" is different. But I can understand it and it fix the background. You think a thing (an emotion, a concept) can be evil in itself. Fine.

I don´t think the Chaos Gods are better or worse than any other gods ever... because they are one and the same. In the Crusade, they found countless religions with countless names. Khorne or Ares, who cares? It is still Anger.

None of your quotes every showed that and the codex doesn't do that. Chaos is intelligent as hell, or else it wouldn't have pulled off even 5% of the things it does in this setting, such as outwit the Emperor and cause the Heresy. To imply that Chaos is unintelligent would imply that it's completely random. It CLEARLY has its goals and it CLEARLY knows how to PLAN for them and work to achieve them. I don't think there's a single fluff piece anywhere that states that Chaos is unintelligent ("rudimentary" intelligence is a HUGE difference from unintelligent, and GW's definition of "rudimentary" intelligence is clearly far beyond simple animal intelligence).

No.
Sorry, I already quoted you the lines including expressions such "undirected by intelligent purpose" and "unfocused consciousness". Yet you insist that Chaos is "intelligent as hell". You are in denial here.

OK, I'm curious now. This is for both sides of the argument.

How do you define evil?

 Happyjew wrote:
OK, I'm curious now. This is for both sides of the argument.

How do you define evil?

Taking pleasure or delight in the pain and suffering of others. Killing, maiming, burning etc or any of the sort for personal endevours or personal gain such as money or power.

Indiscriminate violence or sinister actions (which involve any of the previously mentioned acts) including psycological and physical harm being used against a target group of living things and or indiscriminately carries out in an inhumane way for fun, pleasure, violence, satisfaction or personal gain.

In the case of animals it would be killing without purpose, in higher quantities than needed, with the intent of eradication (without good reason) and doing so in an inhumane manner.

Evil encompasses much more and im sure others can help fill it in. But generally along the lines of the above.

 Melissia wrote:
But yes, the gods themselves embrace evil and care about little else.

Can you prove this statement?

 Happyjew wrote:
OK, I'm curious now. This is for both sides of the argument.

How do you define evil?

Personally? I define evil the same way Justice Potter Stewart defines pornography; "I'll know it when I see it".

On a more useful level... actually that's about as useful as I can give. Prepare for story/example time kiddies.

1) A man steals several thousand dollars. Stealing is wrong, and with no indicator that the man was remorseful or even acknowledged his wrong doing, he is labeled evil.

2) An impoverished man steals several thousand dollars to feed and cloth himself in the face of the coming winter. Stealing is wrong, and though there are mitigating factors, he remains defiant, so he is labeled evil.

3) An impoverished and malnourished man steals several thousand dollars to feed and cloth himself in the face of the coming winter. Stealing is wrong, but there are mitigating factors, and the man is sorry that he had to go to such extreme lengths but he did not want to die in the frozen slush of some gutter. He is still punished because stealing is wrong, but he is not labeled evil.

What I'm getting at is that the circumstances and intent have a bearing on what I acknowledge as evil. Some things have no (to my knowledge) excuses, but most actions can be justified in the right light/terms. Made perfect and not wrong, rarely. Made understandable and not evil, frequently.

What about the line "To be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions. It is to live in the cruellest and most bloody regime imaginable"

What about it?

That's only evil from my point of view as a citizen of a liberal, Western democracy.

The misanthrope tells me that it is necessary. It tells me that even that isn't enough. Also, that they probably deserve it. For in the Imperium "It is better that a thousand innocents die than one guilty walk free". The reality of M40 has driven them to this state.

Is it "evil"? Not really, no, or it falls under the heading of "necessary evil".

But, again, you seem to be trying to state that I'm saying that the Imperium is somehow a good guy. They aren't, simply less-evil than Chaos... who will enact a regime so bloody and cruel it cannot even be imagined, for it surpasses all human comprehension.

"An even better example: a wolf that is starving has rudimentary intelligence. If it meets a baby it will kill and feed on it. According to your reasoning that would be evil, but it is not."

To be honest if we were to classify something like this as indeed an evil act (but perhaps indicate the wolf is not blameworthy) I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Also one problem with the line of argumentation that "the gods are beyond mortal understanding" is they really aren't. It's very easy for authors to simply say "this is incomprehensible" but nothing in the canon really supports that. Very little about the gods are that hard to understand, for example: Khorne perpetuates violence.

"No. Sorry, I already quoted you the lines including expressions such "undirected by intelligent purpose" and "unfocused consciousness". Yet you insist that Chaos is "intelligent as hell". You are in denial here."

It seems more likely that the writers can't make up their mind.

 da001 wrote:
OK I got a Codex: Chaos Daemons in English and some spare time, so... it is Quote Time!!.

On the nature of the Chaos Gods. Page 6. "The Nature of the Beast" entry.
Quote 1.1: Chaos is made of emotions, dreams and nightmares

Spoiler:

“Beyond the boundaries of physical space, unrestricted by time or causality, there is a dimension utterly incomprehensible to mortal minds. It lies on the other side of dreams and nightmares, infinite in scope but without form or structure. This realm is composed of love and hate, fear and hope, ambition and despair, and yet is an uncaring, emotionless void.”

Quote 1.2: Chaos is described through metaphors. It cannot be seen, smelled or heard.

Spoiler:

“The Realm of Chaos exists far outside imagination; an impossible abstraction made real only by metaphor and the roiling emotions of mortal mind. (…) No mundane sense can see, smell or hear it”

Quote 1.3: The formation of the Chaos Gods. Chaos Gods made out of emotions, fantasies, dreams...

Spoiler:

“In the Warp, similar thoughts and emotions gather together like rivulets of water (…). They form streams and eddies of anguish and desire, pools of hatred and torrents of pride. (…) these tides and waves have flowed unceasingly (…) and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the very stuff of unreality. Eventually, these instinctual, formless beings gained a rudimentary consciousness. The Chaos Gods were born, vast psychic presences made of the fantasies and horrors of mortals.”

On the Realm of Chaos. Page 6 again.
Quote 2.1: No intelligent purpose, no consistence.

Spoiler:

“It is a dimension parallel to our own, a universe devoid of consistence (…), a random, unstructured panorama of pure energy and unfocused consciousness (…) unfettered by the limits of physics and undirected by intelligent purpose.”

Quote 2.2: Warp space and Chaos are exactly the same thing.

Spoiler:

“Warp space is Chaos, Chaos is Warp space; the two are indivisible.”

Quote 2.3: Chaos Gods are... landscapes. They ARE the Realm of Chaos, or locations inside it.

Spoiler:

“The Chaos Gods and their dominions are one, for both are formed of the same Warp energy".

Quote 2.4: Chaos Gods made of emotions part II.

Spoiler:

"Khorne´s realm is founded on anger and bloodletting; Tzeentch´s lands are scintillating constructs of pure magic; Nurgle´s territory is a haven of death and regeneration, and Slaanesh´s dominion is a paradise of damning temptations.”

On “What does the Chaos Gods do?”. From “The Great Game” entry, page 8.
Quote 3.1: What does they do. Goal of the Gods. The paradox: if they ever achieve a total victory, they will die. (That´s what happens when you are able to fight yet lack intelligence).

Spoiler:

“The Chaos Gods are constantly at war with one another” “the great Gods of Chaos have the same goal: total domination of the universe.” “No Chaos God can ever truly be victorius, for without the Great Game, the Warp would become a still, unmoving emptiness”.

Quote 3.2: About the Chaos Gods interest on humanity (or lack of).

Spoiler:

“From time to time arises a being, place or event in the material universe that attracts the attention of all the Gods of Chaos. (…) For Mankind, the most significant occasion of this type was the rise of the Emperor.” “Such interest in mortal affairs is fleeting”

One by one.
On Khorne. Page 10. "The Blood God" entry.
Quote 4.1:

Spoiler:

“He is wrath incarnate, the embodiment of a never-ending lust to dominate and destroy.” “Every single life taken in anger increases the Blood God´s power.”

On Tzeentch. Page 12. The Changer of Ways entry.
Quote 4.2:

Spoiler:

“Tzeentch feeds upon the need and desire for change that is an essential part of all living things” “He listens to the hopes of every sentient being”
“… and the ambitions of nations create a force that can change history. Tzeentch is the embodiment of that force.”

On Nurgle. Page 14. Father of Plagues entry.
Quote 4.3:

Spoiler:

“Nurgle is not a morose purveyor of despair and gloom, but a vibrant god of life and laughter. In death, there is life.” “The greatest inspiration comes in the darkest moments” “He is the hidden fear of disease and decay, the gnawing truth of mortality and the power of defiance it generates”.

On Slaanesh. Page 16. The Dark Prince entry.
Quote 4.4:

Spoiler:

“He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in all things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania.” “… wherever the lust for power and temporal gain exists, the talons of Slaanesh dig deep.”

Ok, enough for now. These would come handy.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:
What i am saying is that as we have never met any being like this all we can do is speculate and make assumptions. So saying that say Khorne CANT do this or COULDN'T do that is making a strong assertive statement where you have no grounds to make such a statement. Trust me i spent a year on a US politics and current events debate forum i now well were you can and cannot make strong assertive statements

My grounds are the background GW has published through the years.
Quotes 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 2.1, 2.4, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4.
TL,DR:
1) The Chaos Gods are entities made of emotions. And they are landscapes. No intelligence. Rudimentary and unfocused consciousness.
2) All descriptions are metaphors. Dreams, fantasies.... nothing else.

TiamatRoar wrote:

Landscapes can be evil if they're sentient. Which the Garden of Nurgle arguably is. That thing DEVOURS anyone who enters unless Nurgle wills them to go

Wrong. It is a metaphor. The warp cannot be seen, smelt or heard (quote 1.2). An emotion cannot physically devour you. It is a physical act and physics do not apply in the Warp (quote 2.1).

 Melissia wrote:
Nurgle says a human's life is worth less than a bacterium's. He would gladly kill all of humanity if it meant that their bodies would spawn more bacteria-- if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

Khorne says a human life is worthless unless it is shedding blood. He would gladly watch all humans bleed to death and have his servants pile their skulls up upon his throne, if only he was able to accomplish this. He's certainly trying.

Slaanesh says a human life is worthless unless it is used in excess. S/he would gladly torture all humans until they die horrible, suffering, screaming, hideously painful deaths, if only s/he was capable of it. S/he's certainly trying.

Tzeentch says a human life is worthless unless it is plotting and scheming. He would gladly set humanity against itself, to turn betrayal in to the most common virtue until humanity was wiped out, if only he was capable of it. He's certainly trying.

No. They do not care about mortals (see quote 3.2). They will starve if they kill humans. Also, that would not explain why the people on daemonwordls are still alive (and many times in better condition that imperials). The Chaos Gods are emotional parasites. They need humanity (or sentient beings)

Also, Nurgle is a god of life and laughter, he is not trying to kill anyone. Quite the contrary. See Quote 4.3.

(One little thing here: in mythology and anthropology the bringer of change is usually Death. Nurgle and Tzeentch hate each other. They are Life and Death (or Pestilence and Death, if you want to go that way). No quote here, this is just an opinion.)

 Melissia wrote:
You haven't actually read Chaos lore, have you?

I doubt you have ever read a single page of the background of a Chaos Codex. The first page is number six and it addresses most of your reasonings. You keep posting Imperial propaganda. Get a Codex of a different faction and you will get a different perspective from a different point of view. That´s what makes this setting so interesting. For me, at least.






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For instance, I have a copy of most GW has published about the Sisters of Battle. The Liber Sororitas (white dwarf 293), the Ordo Hereticus Strike Force from the Citadel Journal 49, the Codex: Witch Hunters...

It gives me a completely different perspective and I enjoy it a lot.

^^^OH ALL OF THIS! SO MUCH WINNING IS UP THERE!! ^^^

My Chaos Brethren here just did exactly what I was about to have to do (and this should be on page 1 about Chaos). All of this information is cited in the Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines Codex quiet thoroughly.

Please. Take my Exalt as well, for you sir have done the Legions Infernal proud. +__+

who will enact a regime so bloody and cruel it cannot even be imagined, for it surpasses all human comprehension.

It would probably be pretty gakky for the first couple of centuries but afterwards not that bad. Life for the blood pact can't be that bad considering how they fight against the imperials. The problem with the Imperium is that its founded on ignorance, wether ignorant science pre heresy or ignorant religion later on. With Chaos its like why wear on unbrella when your already wet. Once everyone had accepted the new order their would be no going back, no heresies, probably some wars between the gods and definitily against aliens but I can't imagine that they'd actually have MORE WARS. A Chaos ruled Imperium might actually usher in the unity the Emperor wanted. Who knows, maybe the Emperor wonders if Horus would have done a better job than him and he should have just let him win.

Kaesoron wrote:
40k is a universe without good or evil, any attempt to moralize or demonize will fail because of this.

This is my opinion on the subject too reading the background of the factions. There are many aspects which are good and bad for all the factions. I still keep the stance that extremes of chaos and order are bad imo. (Which chaos and IOM are and some of the other factions)

Yes there are factors for some good but more evil can be produced from extremes.

 Melissia wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Chaos itself?
The Chaos Gods?
Or some Champion of Chaos?

"Chaos Itself" is defined by the gods. But yes, the gods themselves embrace evil and care about little else. The most devoted worshipers of Chaos reflect the god they follow.

I don´t see how the gods embrace evil.

Perhaps you can argue that the Chaos Gods have little more than the mindsets of bickering children who cannot understand tha other peoples' desires matter

Chaos worshippers are humans, and they can make a choice between evil and good. Thus they can be evil. You keep drawing a comparison between humans and the Chaos Gods. First it was their followers, now their children. It makes no sense. They are not humans in any possible sense. Try to compare them to bees or a virus.

I still think a starving wolf near a human baby is the best example of a Chaos God – human relation. There are lots of points in common:
1) Both the Chaos Gods and the wolf are starving
2) Both need to feed on the human or die. Both would feed without regret.
3) Both are barely intelligent creatures.
4) Both have rudimentary consciousness.
5) Both lack a soul and are unable to make a choice between right and wrong.
6) The wolf is utterly incomprehensible to the baby, the wolf cares nothing for the baby. The same relation applies if you had a Chaos God.
7) Both are beings feeding on another. The wolf and the Chaos God need to eat to remain alive. Why should they starve to benefit the human?

Differences:
1) The wolf is affected by causality. Time applies to it, with words like “present”, “past” or “future” being applicable. Good luck trying to imagine an example including that.
2) The wolf would kill the baby. Chaos Gods are parasites that feed on human emotions. Khorne would try to instill anger in the baby and fail, and Slaanesh and Tzeentch would fail too. Nurgle would instill in the baby a sense of mortality and the human soul would burn with defiance, feeding Nurgle. Nurgle would embrace the baby and try to make it live the longer the better, not because it is a good guy, but because it has no reason to kill his source of energy.

(which says nothing good about them, so you would be denigrating them in trying to defend them).

I am definitely not defending them. Where did you get that from?

The obvious conclusion of the quotes I posted is that most Chaos worshippers are deluded fools who think the Chaos Gods care about them. But they do not. The whims of the gods that make a Champion into spawns are actually the random acts of barely sentient, moronic entities unable to understand what is going on. I am saying they are (spiritual) forces of nature that care nothing. The Chaos religion is a bunch of lies (and so is the Imperial religion).

I don't buy that argument, however; and in adults, we call that lack of caring for other peoples' desires and needs... sociopathy.

I doubt it. They are not humans and words like "sociopath" are mostly used for human beings. Few people would consider a bee, a virus, a thing made of raw emotion or a hurricane "sociopath".

A question for you: you claim Chaos Gods are evil because they feed on humans. Are you evil if you eat a chicken? Why should you care for your food?

 Happyjew wrote:

How do you define evil?

This is a really difficult question and I am not sure I am good enough in your language to properly answer it. I am copy-pasting from the Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_and_evil
"Evil is typically associated with conscious and deliberate wrongdoing, discrimination designed to harm others, humiliation of people designed to diminish their psychological needs and dignity, destructiveness, and acts of unnecessary and/or indiscriminate violence." Add the "Theories of moral goodness" below. Important: I don´t think this applies to a not-human being though.

In the case of the Chaos Gods, I think it doesn´t apply, for two reasons:
1) It is necessary (the Chaos Gods will starve if they stop), and it cannot be associated with consciousness or intelligence.
2) Chaos Gods are not humans.

On a personal note, I think GW (and D&D) copy-pasted the Chaos/Law from Michael Moorcock. I think Chaos and Law (Imperium) are supposed to mirror of each other, and highly harmful to humans. And "pure chaos" or "pure law" are, by definition, true neutral.

 Psienesis wrote:

But, again, you seem to be trying to state that I'm saying that the Imperium is somehow a good guy. They aren't, simply less-evil than Chaos... who will enact a regime so bloody and cruel it cannot even be imagined, for it surpasses all human comprehension.

Not exactly a good guy, just a mirror of Chaos. Neutral. By saying that the Imperium is less evil, you are, say, "unbalancing the balance".

My point with the sentence is that the Imperium regime is described as the worst ever. We have some examples of chaos civilizations (the people the Imperium is fighting in the Sabbat Worlds, the characters from Pawns of Chaos or Daemonworld) and they are not in "a bloody and cruel regime that surpasses all human comprehension" at all. They are described as a Roman would describe a barbarian.

 asimo77 wrote:
Also one problem with the line of argumentation that "the gods are beyond mortal understanding" is they really aren't. It's very easy for authors to simply say "this is incomprehensible" but nothing in the canon really supports that. Very little about the gods are that hard to understand, for example: Khorne perpetuates violence.

"No. Sorry, I already quoted you the lines including expressions such "undirected by intelligent purpose" and "unfocused consciousness". Yet you insist that Chaos is "intelligent as hell". You are in denial here."

It seems more likely that the writers can't make up their mind.

I must disagree with that. GW took this stuff from Moorcock and many other sources, which in turn took it all from mythology, anthropology and what not. It is not that the writers can´t make up their mind. They are describing the gods as they have been described since forever. The authors keep saying that the gods are incomprehensible because they are incomprehensible. Countless humans have debated for countless years about what a god is.

In the last editions, the background has been "simplified", which causes a clear lack of coherence. Chaos Undivided is missing for the first time in 6th edition, which deteriorates the setting and causes contradictions. But the stuff they just copy-pasted from previous editions is really interesting, complex and deep.

Your definition of evil is the reason of our disagreement. The starving wolf (or the hurricane we talked about before) is an example of something that cannot be evil in any sense to me. I think a being need to be able to choose between right and wrong (aka "have a soul") to be evil. Having an intelligence or a consciousness also helps. By your definition, the Chaos Gods are evil. No discussion here.

Good point by Happyjew: we do not agree on what "evil" means.

@TheRedWingArmada: thanks!

Well you could argue inanimate objects and things as it were can know "stuff". Does an automatic door know when to open? Does it choose to open? It senses movement in front of it and responds in kind. perhaps in a sense it's a token of a virtuous epistemic agent. Does the Chinese Room know Chinese? Is it conscious? More importantly does it need to be? I'm of the opinion that consciousness is the least important part of existence when it comes to these sorts of questions. Every being could act exactly as it does with or without consciousness and there wouldn't be any discernible difference. Furthermore perhaps it's epistemic chauvinism for us to say certain things can or cannot know, or do or do not have consciousness.

I'd liken the Chaos Gods to computer programs.

They respond to certain events and work within their designed parameters (The emotions creating them) and of course working to survive. The views and lives of beings as infinitely small as humans would mean nothing to them, much like a paramecium doesn't mean gak to us.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I'd liken the Chaos Gods to computer programs.

They respond to certain events and work within their designed parameters (The emotions creating them) and of course working to survive. The views and lives of beings as infinitely small as humans would mean nothing to them, much like a paramecium doesn't mean gak to us.

This is pretty accurate, more for illustrating the point I was trying to make earlier about Nurgle being both the Fat-Body and the Manse and all of his minions simultaneously.

Yes, they are extremely powerful, but this is all relative. Same with their intelligence, their pre-set goals and the fragments of emotion that make up the Ruinous Powers mass. I would liken them JUST like a computer program. They are all independently performing according to their parameters, but ultimately they are doing with the computer itself is telling them to do, which is far greater, more powerful and far more mysterious in purpose and grand design than the Big 4 themselves; the computer being the Warp as a whole.

Ultimately, there is nothing that says Nurgle has to exist, because despite being one of the Ruinous 4 he is simply the coalescence of Warp powers called "Nurgle" or "Plague Father," whatever misnomer you choose to give these metaphors given life.