Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

true but i ignore grey knights as i think they are rediculious but thats me. but i conceede that the imperium isnt clean nor perfect but in my opinion better than the alternative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to clarify i dont see mutants as evil or bad or anything, as long as they are natural or abhuman its fine. but chaos induced mutations are something i wouldnt tollerate.

Er they view all mutations as chaos even the natural ones. All mutants are to be killed/abhorred by the IOM.

Plus they still consider Abhumans mutants and treats them like crap they only keep them around because they are useful. In lord of the night a psyker had to flash her inqusition authority just to get the ogryn medical treatment from the hospital.

Then his throat was slit by the other retinue members because they did not give a crap about him because he was a mutant after this event guess where the psyker went? After talking with the night lord mind to mind. Right into the arms of the night lord she is traveling around with him now and if you know the fluff he was telling the truth.

Even then she was treated like crap and preacher tellings the crowd to hate and burn witches and lots of other things and her opinion counted for nothing why? Cause she is a mutant a psyker. All sanctioned pyskers are considered mutants Oh and they a murdering almost everyone in the under hive to find the night lord.

I know but I stated my view on the matter of mutation which differs from that of some of the imperium.

The imperium does not like differing opinions people with differing opinions are normally killed.

 carlos13th wrote:
They are both bad. Both as bad as each other? Maybe not but you are still choosing a lesser of two evils. Even the supposed good race Tau is still an expanding empire of join us or die.

Is join us or die necessarily evil though? Just to play a little 'devil's advocate', but in a universe in which species based genocide is viewed as a moral duty by most of the major star faring races, if you aren't for us you are quite literally against us.

Now there are some exceptions to this, but even those exceptions will still take their race over another when push comes to shove (the Eldar could be said to be one race that isn't 'join or die/just die because you aren't us', but they gladly bypass that to save a single Eldar).

Not saying I agree with that, but in kill or be killed environments....

From that view, the Tau are the most 'good' race in the game, probably followed by Eldar. Which, being we're essentially playing a riff on Tolkein in Space, is somewhat true. Elves are arrogant jerks, but they still 'fight the good fight' against evil for the most part.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I know but I stated my view on the matter of mutation which differs from that of some of the imperium.

Then you are lucky you are not in the Imperium. They will turn you into a lobotomized servitor for having "a view on the matter of mutation" that differs from imperial dogma. Your children will become cherubims. Unless you are in a forgeworld, of course. Then you would be tortured, killed and turn into food for your fellow enslaves.

Life is hell in the Imperium for most of the citizens. Even if you are "pure".

Tau is the closest thing to a "good faction" in the setting. Chaos and Imperium are really close in an evil-good scale.

shinros wrote:
To them they are more free than they were with than with the IOM

To them, maybe, but they're hardly unbiased. As I said, overall, Chaos violates a person more than the IOM. The IOM just brainwashes you and doesn't really care about your life. Chaos, meanwhile, does both of those things and also goes about corrupting your soul and body at its leisure. Did you not want horns all over your face? Too bad, you're getting them. Did you not want to be a forthing madman who slowly comes to live only for bloodshed? Too bad, you don't get a say in the matter. Life in a Chaos warband is also far less safe than a life in the IOM. Your leader and Daemon allies will have just as little regard for your life, and could well kill or maim you on a whim.

shinros wrote:
Then it comes to the debate are they slaves or servants? I view them as servants but everyone has a different opinion.

I'd say they're definetely more slaves than servants. As i've said, a Chaos worshiper is the plaything of their god, mind body and soul. The worshiper gets no say in the matter, they're not consulted about that tentacle that's appeared out of their torso.

shinros wrote:
He said he is a simple man and not a slave and tzeentch totally liked that and simply said well I could use a man like you when you feel like joining me just ask got a open spot for you.

I'm not sure that Chaos is actually so friendly and considerate, likely, it was just this author's spin on them. To Tzeentch especially, everybody is an expendable pawn for his convoluted schemes.

shinros wrote:
To me I think the book is trying to show that the gods would rather have people/servants than complete slaves/pawns to their whims and their plans.

Well, I'd say that the book is incorrect. The very thing with Chaos is that it corrupts people, twists them into what it wants them to be. This is the complete opposite of valuing individuality.

Also, I'll go ahead a point out that BL often do deviate a bit from what we see in the codexes and such. They are freelance writers, after all, with an artistic license to put their own spin on the setting.

Champions of Chaos, Chaos Space Marines and the like are toys for the gods. But this does not apply to the average person living there. The gods do not care at all about them. And someone needs to keep civilization going. Worlds where people actively worship the gods have been around since forever.

Live there can be hard, but it is not harder that living in a hive or in a forgeworld... as long as you are "pure", as long as you are not a mutant, as long as you do not express your opinion.

Edit: also, Tzeentch is always friendly and considerate. It is the way he is described. And Nurgle loves everything. The only chaos god that seems evil is Slaanesh (and Khorne in the last editions).

The difference between the two is that imperium, for all it's faults, still tries to do what it believes is the right thing to do, that is protect mankind in the long run.

Chaos just wants people to serve them in order to make themselves more powerful, to help them triumph in "the great game". They REALLY don't care whatsoever for their followers. At least the imperium cares, if not for individuals, for humanity as a whole. That said, the imperium is still pretty far from being a morally good place.

Heh, if we consider what the IoM considers good, then actually Chaos worshipers are quite good.
Can they kill Xenos? Heck yeah! Smaller Craftworlds and Exodite worlds come under assault from Slaaneshi forces all the time, kill a ton of them too. Orks get the boot, Tau get no mercy ect.ect.
Can they protect humanity? When the chips are down, yeah. 'Pawn of Chaos' shows this, and there are scenes in the Bastion Wars boots by Henry Zou where the Blood Gorgons defend the worlds they recruit from.
Can they fight against Chaos? Oh, absolutely. Emperor's Children and the World Eaters looove to shred each other into itty bitty bits.
Minister to the faithful? If you need a blessing, holla atcha Word Bearers.
Build cities, fortresses, and mechanical wonders? Dang skippy they do! Iron Warriors and Hereteks, all day and all night.
Execute masterful plans of such grace and subtly that Lord Inquisitors and Creed himself beg to be taught? Too true. Any Tzeentchian greater daemon or the Alpha Legion make mockeries of other factions planning. The Alpha Legion has managed to pull apart two separate SM chapters to bolster their own ranks, taking both established battle brothers and geneseed stocks.
Worship the God Emperor? No, though neither do most loyalist SM chapters. But yeah, they do tend to hate the Big E...

So yeah, it's ideological.

This is also what chaos followers believe. That is what the Book of Lorgar says. Only with the help of Chaos may humanity prosper.

It is true, however, that the gods of chaos do not care much for humanity. They only care about their Game.

Also I am not sure the Imperium cares about humanity. They massacre anyone with a different opinion. They are described as the most brutal, bloodthirsty regime ever.

"Ok so the chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement.

Now demons of chaos are nothing more than mindless servants for their gods, they seek to bring glory and power to their respective god. When a demonhost invades a human planet there have been tales of nurgle demons experimenting (with plague) on human captives, khorne demons hunting terrified humans through the shells of ruined cities, slannesh demons torturing captives just cause and tzeentch demons often doing a combination of what was already mentioned. All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror.

These are not the actions of good beings, these are the actions of monsters"

A friend of mine who collects chaos as an army has the opinion above. He shall be reffered to as Runicmadhamster.

He is talking about daemons.

Daemons are Chaos unleashed. Unrestrained, pure, undiluted. They are brutal and extremely hostile to any form of life.

But... evil? Daemons do not have free will. They do what they must. They are a natural force.

Edit: That is what Lorgar and the Word Bearers, and Magnus and the Thousand Sons, try to do: harness the power of Chaos. To help mankind. Because they believe that this is the right thing to do.

"Ok so the chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement. "

So this isnt considered evil to you? the people who willingly worship someone or something who kills for fun is not evil?

"All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror. "

Rewarding those who kill for fun and personal gain is not to you considered evil?

And anything joining chaos with good intentions is deluded and chances are those intentions will become twisted and changed into something sinister.

Lord of Lustria wrote:
I know i will take some flak for this but chaos space marines are not always that evil. For example, the alpha legion started out with admirable intentions, but were branded as pure evil so they became evil. Another example is the iron warriors; the main reason for their rebellion was the way the emperor used them as absolute fodder, decimating their legion. Also, some chaos marines are born into being chaos, such as the marines created by daemonoccuba. Can you really say that all of them are any more evil than the imperium?

You wait for the End Times. The Alpha Warriors play a long con, and the next to the Emperor they will have played the longest, most committed con by deliberately committing to chaos. When the End Time comes, they will turn on the other chaos legions. The Imperium will not accept them of course and will purge them, but it won't matter to the Alpha Legion. They will have pulled off the greatest deception in history and by one of the lynch pins do the Grim Dark becoming a little less grim.

So after reading the thread here are my thoughts on nature of the chaos gods.

The chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement.

Now demons of chaos are nothing more than mindless servants for their gods, they seek to bring glory and power to their respective god. When a demonhost invades a human planet there have been tales of nurgle demons experimenting (with plague) on human captives, khorne demons hunting terrified humans through the shells of ruined cities, slannesh demons torturing captives just cause and tzeentch demons often doing a combination of what was already mentioned. All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror.

And as for the imperium, well i called it backward, xenophobic and technophobic. Its a sham, a mockery of humanity. Its populations enslaved and stupefied

To me, Chaos seems to feed ambition endlessly and without consequence. It's the power that totally corrupts. It's not evil in itself but quickly leads to evil in the hands of humans. The chaos gods themselves are embodiments of a different morality. Slannesh doesn't seem evil other than satisfying endless excess, which isn't healthy. Many humans are tempted by chaos in the belief they can do good, not evil, but it's a shortcut to power that corrupts absolutely.

The imperium is probably seen as evil by chaos, as it's opposed to chaos in many ways. The imperium is a stagnant monotheistic entity in which most people live ordered lives of no opportunity or attainment. Chaos at least offers freedom of worship to one or more gods and presumably rewards those with the greatest ambition.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
To me, Chaos seems to feed ambition endlessly and without consequence. It's the power that totally corrupts. It's not evil in itself but quickly leads to evil in the hands of humans. The chaos gods themselves are embodiments of a different morality. Slannesh doesn't seem evil other than satisfying endless excess, which isn't healthy. Many humans are tempted by chaos in the belief they can do good, not evil, but it's a shortcut to power that corrupts absolutely.

The imperium is probably seen as evil by chaos, as it's opposed to chaos in many ways. The imperium is a stagnant monotheistic entity in which most people live ordered lives of no opportunity or attainment. Chaos at least offers freedom of worship to one or more gods and presumably rewards those with the greatest ambition.

So what are demons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to your point about slannesh......

Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure, the Dark God dedicated to the pursuit of earthly gratification and the overthrow of all decent behaviour, as well as hedonism and pleasure for its own sake. He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in All Things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania. Wherever mortals are ruled by their own unquenchable desires, the Dark Prince of Chaos is there in the shadows, whispering, tempting, and feasting on a banquet of souls. But this is true in all things, not just carnal pleasures. Those who desire to indulge in the finest culinary delights, the most beautiful artworks, even the most sensual clothing, could all be amongst Slaanesh’s disciples. Just as importantly, Slaanesh is also the god of perfection. The singer striving for the most beautiful song or the warrior who seeks the perfect fighting techniques, both could be devotees of Slaanesh.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Slaanesh

Yeah slannesh is evil, all the chaos gods are

Indeed runic chaos and IOM are just extremes of the chaos and order spectrum yes there is some capacity to do some good but also a lot of evil.

As we all know extremes are never good and moderation does not exist in 40k

Nearly every race is opposed and disgusted by Chaos.

I say that is a sign Chaos is not a good thing.


Not to mention that followers of Chaos are in endless suffering, especially when they die. (Although, I read that some of the Nurgle worshippers are immune to pain, or something like that.)

shinros wrote:
Indeed runic chaos and IOM are just extremes of the chaos and order spectrum yes there is some capacity to do some good but also a lot of evil.

As well all know extremes are never good and moderation does not exist in 40k

Yeah thats true. Although the Imperiums version of order is bloodstained, brutal and cruel.

Warning: wall of text.

 Swastakowey wrote:
"Ok so the chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement. "

So this isnt considered evil to you? the people who willingly worship someone or something who kills for fun is not evil?

I don´t see how a god can be evil. Do you think the gods kill "for the fun"? Everything dies, no matter the religion. Blaming the gods does not work, because they do not have free will. The god of violence (call it Morrigan, Ares, Khorne, whatever) can not stop being violent. Chaos gods are raw emotions. It is like calling an earthquake "evil". Same goes for daemons.

And your friend is wrong: Nurgle loves his followers whatever they do, and the rest of the gods ignore most of their followers. They have near zero interest in what humans do. They only care (a little) about their Champions.

"All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror. "

Rewarding those who kill for fun and personal gain is not to you considered evil?

This is a simplification, and imperial propaganda.

First things first: I don´t see the Emperor condemning the countless atrocities made in his name (as a "good god" would).

1: Tzeentch will (perhaps) reward you if you kill for personal gain, because it favors ambition. But ambition in itself is not evil. And hope is part of its work too.
2: Khorne will not reward you if you kill for fun or for personal gain. Or if you kill an unworthy prey. True soldiers do not kill for fun or because personal gain, and despise those who do. That´s Slaanesh thing, and Khorne hates Slaanesh.
3: Nurgle loves everything. Killing something (anything) unless it is strictly necessary is bad in its eyes.
4: Slaanesh will encourage you to kill for fun. Then again, Slaanesh is a jerk. It will probably not reward you because of that, though.
5: The countless minor chaos gods will reward you if they want to. Each case would be different.

And anything joining chaos with good intentions is deluded and chances are those intentions will become twisted and changed into something sinister.

There are civilizations out there that worship the gods and have lasted for thousand of years. They (as a whole) are not "something sinister". Or not more sinister that the Imperium, the "most brutal" regime ever to exist.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:

shinros wrote:
Indeed runic chaos and IOM are just extremes of the chaos and order spectrum yes there is some capacity to do some good but also a lot of evil.

As well all know extremes are never good and moderation does not exist in 40k

Yeah thats true. Although the Imperiums version of order is bloodstained, brutal and cruel.

Exactly. This is another iteration of Chaos versus Order. There was a fantasy author called Michael Moorcock that wrote about Chaos and Order. GW took many of his ideas (including the eight-pointed star for Chaos).

At the current moment in the setting, both Chaos and Order have gone extreme, and thus they are highly dangerous to life. They are at open war with each other. But this doesn't mean that Chaos (or Order) are evil in themselves.

Broly wrote:
Nearly every race is opposed and disgusted by Chaos.

I say that is a sign Chaos is not a good thing.


Not to mention that followers of Chaos are in endless suffering, especially when they die. (Although, I read that some of the Nurgle worshippers are immune to pain, or something like that.)

In this setting, nearly every faction is opposed and disgusted by most other factions.

And everyone (human) end in endless suffering after death in this setting. The warp is full (made?) of souls in eternal agony. Nurgle followers are the exception. They welcome pain and learn to love it, or are completely immune to it, depending on the writer.

Lord of Lustria wrote:
Btw I know that 99.99999% of chaos marines are hitler In space

Chaos Marines make the Nazis look like Boy Scouts with anger management issues.

 carlos13th wrote:
Khorne was more interesting when there was more emphasis on the Martial honour and pride aspect. Now it seems Khorne is way to blood and guts above all else.

No, I like Khorne more when the thing he likes the most is when lots of people die at one time and one place. It makes Exterminatus seem even more of a pyrrhic victory than it already is. You kill a billion souls in one blast? Khorne wins.

 Runicmadhamster wrote:


Also to your point about slannesh......

Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure, the Dark God dedicated to the pursuit of earthly gratification and the overthrow of all decent behaviour, as well as hedonism and pleasure for its own sake. He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in All Things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania. Wherever mortals are ruled by their own unquenchable desires, the Dark Prince of Chaos is there in the shadows, whispering, tempting, and feasting on a banquet of souls. But this is true in all things, not just carnal pleasures. Those who desire to indulge in the finest culinary delights, the most beautiful artworks, even the most sensual clothing, could all be amongst Slaanesh’s disciples. Just as importantly, Slaanesh is also the god of perfection. The singer striving for the most beautiful song or the warrior who seeks the perfect fighting techniques, both could be devotees of Slaanesh.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Slaanesh

Yeah slannesh is evil, all the chaos gods are

What in that description makes them evil? Slannesh is a god of excess and pleasure. As I said, chaos feeds unlimited ambition, and Slaanesh specialises in selfishness for self satisfaction. But it's not explicitly evil unless you're getting hung up about christian morality/sin. Slaanesh strives for perfection and beauty. I think it's better to think of the chaos gods as forces of nature rather than monsters that are easily characterised as being obviously evil. There's no reason for example a Slaanesh worshiper need be evil. It's easy to see how they could go down that path but even in your quoted passage it describes how their devotion can manifest itself in different complex ways, it's not all about tits, sexual gratification = evil.

 da001 wrote:
Warning: wall of text.

 Swastakowey wrote:
"Ok so the chaos gods themselves are tyrants, they are dictators over their respective realms. They carry out harsh and brutal punishments to their severants for failure (an act that any sane mind would call evil) and are constantly throwing said servants into a endless meat grinder war for their own amusement. "

So this isnt considered evil to you? the people who willingly worship someone or something who kills for fun is not evil?

I don´t see how a god can be evil. Do you think the gods kill "for the fun"? Everything dies, no matter the religion. Blaming the gods does not work, because they do not have free will. The god of violence (call it Morrigan, Ares, Khorne, whatever) can not stop being violent. Chaos gods are raw emotions. It is like calling an earthquake "evil". Same goes for daemons.

And your friend is wrong: Nurgle loves his followers whatever they do, and the rest of the gods ignore most of their followers. They have near zero interest in what humans do. They only care (a little) about their Champions.

He was quoting me. And i was referring to demonic followers not human followers. And why cant a god be evil? Was it somehow not nurgles fault that he created deadly and toxic plauges that have wiped out billions? These plagues were not naturally occurring nurgle made them. You may say " Nurgle cant stop making plagues, its in his nature", well that doesn't make him any less evil.

"All these acts are done in the name of the chaos gods and the chaos gods dont condemn these actions (as a "good god" would) but rather encourage and egg on their minions to greater acts of bloodshed and terror. "

Rewarding those who kill for fun and personal gain is not to you considered evil?

This is a simplification, and imperial propaganda.

First things first: I don´t see the Emperor condemning the countless atrocities made in his name (as a "good god" would).

1: Tzeentch will (perhaps) reward you if you kill for personal gain, because it favors ambition. But ambition in itself is not evil. And hope is part of its work too.
2: Khorne will not reward you if you kill for fun or for personal gain. Or if you kill an unworthy prey. True soldiers do not kill for fun or because personal gain, and despise those who do. That´s Slaanesh thing, and Khorne hates Slaanesh.
3: Nurgle loves everything. Killing something (anything) unless it is strictly necessary is bad in its eyes.
4: Slaanesh will encourage you to kill for fun. Then again, Slaanesh is a jerk. It will probably not reward you because of that, though.
5: The countless minor chaos gods will reward you if they want to. Each case would be different.

Well he was quoting me and i hate the imperium so its probably not imperial propaganda. I wasn't trying to make the emperor out to be "good god", i think happen to think he is useless nearly dead guy who people get sacrificed too. And your point about nurgle loving everything thing is wrong, he makes plagues that wipe out billions og lives, he can he reconcile his work killing untold billions with his love for everything? And hope is part of Tzeentch's work? I would like to see some evidence of that.

In the chaos space marine codex there is a tale of a space marine chapter that was driven to insanity by Tzeenetch when he gave them the ability to hear every lie ever spoken at once. Let me ask you is this the action of a good entity?

First things first: I don´t see the Emperor condemning the countless atrocities made in his name (as a "good god" would).

Because there is no proof to suggest that the Emperor is even aware of what's going on in the real world. He may, truly, just be a corpse on a chair. He is not, definitively, doing *anything* in the setting of 40K. Lots of people (both fans and people in-universe) like to *believe* that he is, but there is no proof to that, just lots of coincidences.

Khorne will not reward you if you kill for fun or for personal gain. Or if you kill an unworthy prey. True soldiers do not kill for fun or because personal gain, and despise those who do. That´s Slaanesh thing, and Khorne hates Slaanesh.

"Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows."

Nurgle loves his followers whatever they do, and the rest of the gods ignore most of their followers. They have near zero interest in what humans do. They only care (a little) about their Champions.

So long as "whatever they do" is spread plagues and pestilence, yes. If not? It is very possible to earn Nurgle's disfavor, and maybe he turns your blood into an assload of flies or makes you grotesquely fat or gives you a flaming skull head while you're at work at mid-Hive 338B-12. Kind of hard to explain that to your friends.

carlos13th wrote:
Khorne was more interesting when there was more emphasis on the Martial honour and pride aspect. Now it seems Khorne is way to blood and guts above all else.

When was this? Khorne has always been the "bloody-handed god of carnage and slaughter" (Realms of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness).

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 Runicmadhamster wrote:


Also to your point about slannesh......

Slaanesh is the Lord of Pleasure, the Dark God dedicated to the pursuit of earthly gratification and the overthrow of all decent behaviour, as well as hedonism and pleasure for its own sake. He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in All Things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania. Wherever mortals are ruled by their own unquenchable desires, the Dark Prince of Chaos is there in the shadows, whispering, tempting, and feasting on a banquet of souls. But this is true in all things, not just carnal pleasures. Those who desire to indulge in the finest culinary delights, the most beautiful artworks, even the most sensual clothing, could all be amongst Slaanesh’s disciples. Just as importantly, Slaanesh is also the god of perfection. The singer striving for the most beautiful song or the warrior who seeks the perfect fighting techniques, both could be devotees of Slaanesh.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Slaanesh

Yeah slannesh is evil, all the chaos gods are

What in that description makes them evil? Slannesh is a god of excess and pleasure. As I said, chaos feeds unlimited ambition, and Slaanesh specialises in selfishness for self satisfaction. But it's not explicitly evil unless you're getting hung up about christian morality/sin. Slaanesh strives for perfection and beauty. I think it's better to think of the chaos gods as forces of nature rather than monsters that are easily characterised as being obviously evil. There's no reason for example a Slaanesh worshiper need be evil. It's easy to see how they could go down that path but even in your quoted passage it describes how their devotion can manifest itself in different complex ways, it's not all about tits, sexual gratification = evil.

He is the God of Obsession, the Master of Excess in All Things, from gluttony to lust to megalomania. So right there you can already see a bad trend beginning, being the master of excess in all things isnt good and Obsession usually doesn't end well. And i dont view Slannesh as evil because of christian morality/sin, thats irrelevant in my view, its the fact that slanneshi followers will torture in the name of their god and instead of intervening and stopping it (like a normal moral person would) slannesh encourages his followers on. Thats not a good act, its a evil one.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
But it's not explicitly evil unless you're getting hung up about christian morality/sin.

Implying that Christian morality/sin isn't valid in an argument about something being evil is pretty silly, don't you think? There's no point in arguing whether or not something is "good" or "evil" if you don't have a standard of exactly WHAT good and evil are in the first place. If you wish to argue that morality, Christian or otherwise, has no meaning, then the title of the thread should be changed from "Chaos not as evil as you thought?" to "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil." One cannot logically argue "not as evil as you thought?" if there's no such thing as "evil" in the first place.

As an aside, "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil" is one of the primary religious tenants of most Chaos cults. But again, that's irrelevant to the thread with its current title.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
But it's not explicitly evil unless you're getting hung up about christian morality/sin.

Implying that Christian morality/sin isn't valid in an argument about something being evil is pretty silly, don't you think? There's no point in arguing whether or not something is "good" or "evil" if you don't have a standard of exactly WHAT good and evil are in the first place. If you wish to argue that morality, Christian or otherwise, has no meaning, then the title of the thread should be changed from "Chaos not as evil as you thought?" to "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil." One cannot logically argue "not as evil as you thought?" if there's no such thing as "evil" in the first place.

As an aside, "Chaos isn't evil because there's no such thing as evil" is one of the primary religious tenants of most Chaos cults. But again, that's irrelevant to the thread with its current title.

That would tie back in to my original comment about moral relativism having no part in the setting of 40K, especially not in the Imperium.