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After reading gaunts gohsts i would call the chaos very very bad. At least in the imperium there are good and bad, just like in real life. To me the Chaos CAN SOMETIMES be rewarding to their own followers but to anyone else they are pure evil. They also seem to try gain everything they can for themselves and are in it for their own benifit.

From the second i started this hobby i have always despised chaos as they are (you can argue all you want) evil. At least being in the imperium there are millions of factors that determine how good/bad your life will be but in the chaos factions its almost all bad with a tiny glimer of hope that something good will happen to you.

That glimer of hope chaos have is for the weak who dont see how being part of the imperium is like fighting and dying for the survival of humanity as a group. As with any large group of people you have personalities and cultures that differ but at least all of the imperial will combine to protect each other regardless of race etc.

With the Chaos all i see is selfish endevours and the drive to do any evil to gain the benifits chaos may or may not offer. I think all the chaos fans out there just like to defend their armies etc haha which is all well and good but they are evil because they choose to be and they are evil for selfish reasons and for that reason they cannot be argued as "not evil".

Im not saying the imperium is good but at least the imperium is a mostly united and working towards the defence of the human race (and abhumans too i guess).

So as a result i always enjoy crushing chaos players on the battle feild as they rightfully deserve it

Quote me if im wrong but if someone in their right normal minds can justify how the chaos are "not very evil" or "excusably evil" or anything less than pure evil i will be happy to hear it but right now i just dont see chaos as anything close to good in any fashion.

Well in pawns of chaos the soldier got a kid and broke his neck on a tree. Since it was deemed that since they are worshiping chaos the kids are tainted too.

Oh and if your planet does not want to join the imperium good luck to you and if you say to a sister that you don't want to worship their god or join their IOM you are going to be smoke and cinders. Oh and you know all those humans who joined the tau? They are heretics too and need to be purged hell even their sanction psykers and abhumans are treated like gak.

Both factions are evil and good and as you said factors. Hell even in the same book pawns of chaos pretty much they said that both factions are both evil and good.

shinros wrote:

Oh and if your planet does not want to join the imperium good luck to you and if you say to a sister that you don't want to worship their god or join their IOM you are going to be smoke and cinders.

Because Chaos Warbands/Demons will TOTALLY be cool with you refusing to join them.

Yes but what is good about the chaos sorry? easy to point out the bad in the imperium but no good was mentioned in the chaos... and as i said thats the individual in the imperium. i dont see good individuals in the chaos forces just evil. however in contrast i see both good and evil in the imperium.

I definitely fell this way now after reading betrayer. There are so many things I just didn't understand...now...I feel so bad =[

 curran12 wrote:

shinros wrote:

Oh and if your planet does not want to join the imperium good luck to you and if you say to a sister that you don't want to worship their god or join their IOM you are going to be smoke and cinders.

Because Chaos Warbands/Demons will TOTALLY be cool with you refusing to join them.

Yup they would be pissed too since I have been saying in this whole topic that they are no better than each other.

Oh and swastaka the people in the pawn of chaos novels were not evil and the reason why Dathan stopped all 12 ships from being consumed? Because he realised that both sides are both good and evil doing what they deem is necessary he forced them away with only 3 ships remaining and saved his planet via tzeentch power.

His choice impressed tzeentch and he spoke to him directly approving of the choice.

I havent read the book as i only find joy mostly in non fiction books oddly enough. So i dont know what you are reffering too really but was this dathan guy a chaos follower?

I am not yet convinced chaos is capable of good in any way. I wouldnt call this dathan guy a chaos follower more of an inbetweener. Undecided on which path to follow if any path.

To me i see no evidence of good from chaos there.

No he is a follower of chaos all of his planet is. Its the simple fact that he chose a different route and the planet is protected by a warp storm he controls so the IOM won't be coming back.

There is a reason why the chaos symbol is a 8 pointed star representing multiple choices and paths.

Simply multiple choices of evil realy. Well there is a single example of one good action taken by chaos. Name some more?

Actually one of the arrows represents the IOM if I recall correctly. So what does that mean for the IOM if you consider it multiple choices of evil?

One more on the last page I said that the common man on the planet was being forced to work on salt fields that slowly makes them go blind and deteriorates the body while the nobles etc grow fat by their expense the IOM does not care about them and if they try anything or voice protest they are killed. They joined the word bearers. Now do these people view the IOM as good or evil? Would they view the word bearers who helped them as good or evil?

The people being killed by those who joined the word bearers do they view them as good or evil?

I can think of other examples but no matter what I say you will never agree.

I just think they are both bad and good as each other. 40K is grimdark for a reason.

No i think the imperium is good with some bad whilst chaos is just bad with some (very few) examples of good. I have read that chaos followers can start with good inentions but they over time grow corrupt and their intentions are lost and twisted to do the will of their gods etc. I didnt know one of those arrows where the imperium (im not a fluff nut really especially with chaos) so i guess one of those choices is not evil i guess.

Generally chaos, corruption and all the other words tend to lean towards evil...

They are both bad. Both as bad as each other? Maybe not but you are still choosing a lesser of two evils. Even the supposed good race Tau is still an expanding empire of join us or die.

very true but the point i am trying to make rather than arguing where the imperium stands is simply chaos is pretty much only bad. No comparrisons or anything just looking at chaos it is evil. Its not even hidden nor is it for a good reason really its just corruption and evil for the sake of it.

I think the tau and the imperium still have their bad points but i wouldnt class them as evil. More of a balance that chaos lacks.

TiamatRoar wrote:

The fact that the blood of a GOOD man works against Chaos kinda proves the point that Chaos is inherently evil, though. Otherwise either any blood or evil blood would work just as well or "good" blood would not work. One or the other.

The IOM is supremely superstitious they are the kind of people who would kill a good man on the off chance is blood worked even if they had little hard data. Do it for long enough it becomes tradition.

Well its simply agree to disagree then.

yes but in a world where the forces of chaos are reality taking chances is something that is hard to chew. too many what ifs. Its not just superstition. Imagine being in a world where a bunch of mad demonised soldiers could try invade your planet (not country but planet) and rape and pillage your land, enslave and torture you in brutal occupation etc. Its easy to sit back and criticise the imperium but you cant blame them for not taking chances.

But when you are surrounded by evil chances are something you will take less of. Better be safe then sorry especially when the lives of untold amounts of innocence is at stake.

But the point still stands that chaos as a whole is evil. Not all perhaps but even the best intentions get twisted in time due to the influence of chaos so id argue even if they are good eventually they will become evil.

 Swastakowey wrote:
After reading gaunts gohsts i would call the chaos very very bad.

Then look at the enemy the ghosts are fighting in the Sabbat Worlds: the Imperium is at war with a full civilization that worships Khorne. And they have been doing that since forever. They are humans who worship the god of war (and not the "dumb god of always angry"), and they prosper. They have children and take care of them, they have schools, they have honor, they have medics. They have engineers who build stuff, and heroes, and... everything. It is a civilization that has lasted thousand of years.

They cannot be the "evil people" the Imperium says. Apply this to all chaos worshippers out there. In real history, many civilizations have worshipped gods and they have been branded "evil" because of that.

Also you limit yourself to Imperial propaganda. No surprise you think the enemy is "evil". Most books are from the Imperial point of view. Read Daemonworld to see another point of view.

Edit: also Pawns of Chaos. Chaos is evil as long as you limit yourself to imperial propaganda.

A question. you as an ordinary citizen with your friends and family are woken up by the noise of warfare. after some time you hear reports of the imperial guard coming to defend the town, you then hear from people that chaos forces are on their way to the town. Which way would you go? towards the imperium soldiers or towards the chaos soldiers?

Personally id take my chances heading towards the imperial men and women coming this way and in my opinion most people would. Screw getting tortured in untold missery by a bunch of psychos doing a ritual of sorts. A lot less bad things will happen going towards the imperium.

Eh there are barely any decent chaos books I just recently read daemonworld. Did not really like it.

After reading pawns of chaos and lord of the night I finished both yesterday. All the others seem kinda meeeeh. The only two recent good chaos books I have read is angel exterminatus( I feel bad for perturabo) and betrayer. Angron got screwed over.

Most chaos books are just loads of explosions and crumping the enemy most don't look into why they fight or why they do what they do. After reading some of the old chaos novels like slaves to darkness trilogy(fantasy), Pawns of chaos and Lord of the night they do the opposite.

They look at both factions and look at why they fight and make good reasons for both.

 Swastakowey wrote:
A question. you as an ordinary citizen with your friends and family are woken up by the noise of warfare. after some time you hear reports of the imperial guard coming to defend the town, you then hear from people that chaos forces are on their way to the town. Which way would you go? towards the imperium soldiers or towards the chaos soldiers?

Personally id take my chances heading towards the imperial men and women coming this way and in my opinion most people would. Screw getting tortured in untold missery by a bunch of psychos doing a ritual of sorts. A lot less bad things will happen going towards the imperium.

If you are from one of the countless planets that do not belong to the Imperium, the answer is easy: you follow your priests, your leaders, your teachers... chaos. Your family worship chaos too, you have to think about them. The imperial guard will kill or enslave them without a second thought.

If you are from an Imperial world and you are a mutant, or one of the wretched things that barely survive in a hive, the answer depends on your bravery: if you are a coward, stay with your imperial enslavers; if you want to be free, join chaos. You will at last have a chance, if you are strong enough. Imperials do not accept refugees. Chaos do, and the strongest will become the next generation of Champions.


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shinros wrote:
Eh there are barely any decent chaos books I just recently read daemonworld. Did not really like it.

However, the book is about a full world of chaos worshippers. There are full civilizations there. Merchants, priests, warriors... They are not lunatics yelling "kill maim burn". They have children, get in love, build cities.

Yeah that was interesting I just got peeved considering slaanesh is my favourite god is simply her/his forces getting owned. So that peeved me a little I guess. Plus I think the leader of the slaanesh group was an idiot that did not help much.

But I did learn being a slaanesh dreadnought is not all that bad if slaanesh likes you enough you gain normal sense through your dreadnought body. Thats the reason why chaos marines don't like becoming a dreadnought unless you are an iron warrior.

I still have to say pawns of chaos blew my mind I thought at first it was a standard book of war on a underdeveloped planet but it went all philosophical on me which surprised me and was interesting to read.

 da001 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
A question. you as an ordinary citizen with your friends and family are woken up by the noise of warfare. after some time you hear reports of the imperial guard coming to defend the town, you then hear from people that chaos forces are on their way to the town. Which way would you go? towards the imperium soldiers or towards the chaos soldiers?

Personally id take my chances heading towards the imperial men and women coming this way and in my opinion most people would. Screw getting tortured in untold missery by a bunch of psychos doing a ritual of sorts. A lot less bad things will happen going towards the imperium.

If you are from one of the countless planets that do not belong to the Imperium, the answer is easy: you follow your priests, your leaders, your teachers... chaos. Your family worship chaos too, you have to think about them. The imperial guard will kill or enslave them without a second thought.

If you are from an Imperial world and you are a mutant, or one of the wretched things that barely survive in a hive, the answer depends on your bravery: if you are a coward, stay with your imperial enslavers; if you want to be free, join chaos. You will at last have a chance, if you are strong enough. Imperials do not accept refugees. Chaos do, and the strongest will become the next generation of Champions.

I will disagree. The imperium may kill, may torture, may loot, may take you in, may let you go past etc. its up to the person in charge or the soldiers that find you. much like today and in the past. with the Chaos you can pretty much bet they will kill you.

And i have read no where that suggests the imperium does not accept refugess. its entirely up to the person in charge etc.

but i will be clearer. if earth was a small imperial planet and you where an average citizen which way would you go?

Erm most cases with chaos if you want to join them they let you. If earth was an imperial planet I would try everything in my power to pack up and join the tau.

"There are full civilizations there. Merchants, priests, warriors... They are not lunatics yelling "kill maim burn". They have children, get in love, build cities."

I in no way wanted to go there nor am i trying to be offensive but so did almost all the most horrid reigemes on earth (hitler cough, stalin cough, ganghis kan cough and the list goes on)

Er do you know how brutal a regime the IOM is if you read the fluff? There is a reason why chaos cultists is a huge issue and people rather staying with the Tau than the IOM.

 Swastakowey wrote:


but i will be clearer. if earth was a small imperial planet and you where an average citizen which way would you go?

Ok.
If I were a loyal imperial citizen, healthy, with a family to protect, I will go to the imperial side. If I were a mutant, hive scum or a homeless, my answer would be different.

Now your turn.
You have been born on a planet that has been twelve thousand years worshipping the god of Change. You are a medic with three hands and have two children with two heads each. Your tribe has been in peace for two hundred years. Then the Imperium comes, and you magically know how they treat people. Where will you go? To the fortress of your respected leader, who has sworn to protect you, or to the Imperial Guard?


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 Swastakowey wrote:
"There are full civilizations there. Merchants, priests, warriors... They are not lunatics yelling "kill maim burn". They have children, get in love, build cities."

I in no way wanted to go there nor am i trying to be offensive but so did almost all the most horrid reigemes on earth (hitler cough, stalin cough, ganghis kan cough and the list goes on)

And so did almost all the most nice regimes on earth (all of them cough). Nobody is 100% innocent, nobody is 100% guilty. Saying "my enemy is EVIL!!" means "I believe what my government says".

 da001 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


but i will be clearer. if earth was a small imperial planet and you where an average citizen which way would you go?

Ok.
If I were a loyal imperial citizen, healthy, with a family to protect, I will go to the imperial side. If I were a mutant, hive scum or a homeless, my answer would be different.

Now your turn.
You have been born on a planet that has been twelve thousand years worshipping the god of Change. You are a medic with three hands and have two children with two heads each. Your tribe has been in peace for two hundred years. Then the Imperium comes, and you magically know how they treat people. Where will you go? To the fortress of your respected leader, who has sworn to protect you, or to the Imperial Guard?

I would go to where i know best obviously, the chaos, but given i am already corrupt, been infested with chaos, have children i need to protect, i would go to chaos. BUT, whos to say i wont get selected to be sacrificed to gain a favour from the gods for our guys to win. Also how much do i know about when chaos came to have control of the planet? But being infested already limits my choice down to one. Unlike my example which meant you still have a chance on both sides being "pure".

shinros wrote:
Er do you know how brutal a regime the IOM is if you read the fluff? There is a reason why chaos cultists is a huge issue and people rather staying with the Tau than the IOM.

Right on the spot.

There is a reason why the Inquisition kills anyone that goes near not-imperials, and specifically Chaos. If the average Joe of the Imperium knew what Chaos has to offer, he would instantly turn. This has been a constant in the setting. The Imperium is "the bloodiest regime imaginable".

I in no way wanted to go there nor am i trying to be offensive but so did almost all the most horrid reigemes on earth (hitler cough, stalin cough, ganghis kan cough and the list goes on)

And so did almost all the most nice regimes on earth (all of them cough). Nobody is 100% innocent, nobody is 100% guilty. Saying "my enemy is EVIL!!" means "I believe what my government says".

 Swastakowey wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:


but i will be clearer. if earth was a small imperial planet and you where an average citizen which way would you go?

Ok.
If I were a loyal imperial citizen, healthy, with a family to protect, I will go to the imperial side. If I were a mutant, hive scum or a homeless, my answer would be different.

Now your turn.
You have been born on a planet that has been twelve thousand years worshipping the god of Change. You are a medic with three hands and have two children with two heads each. Your tribe has been in peace for two hundred years. Then the Imperium comes, and you magically know how they treat people. Where will you go? To the fortress of your respected leader, who has sworn to protect you, or to the Imperial Guard?

I would go to where i know best obviously, the chaos, but given i am already corrupt, been infested with chaos, have children i need to protect, i would go to chaos. BUT, whos to say i wont get selected to be sacrificed to gain a favour from the gods for our guys to win. Also how much do i know about when chaos came to have control of the planet? But being infested already limits my choice down to one. Unlike my example which meant you still have a chance on both sides being "pure".

Why "infested"? Because you are a mutant?

You are not "infested". You have born in another place. Another culture. Perhaps with a mutation you are not guilty of.

Also, the Eccleesiarchy does human sacrifices. As long as you worship the Emperor, they do not care how you do it. And the Emperor itself eats countless humans on a daily basis. And the blood of the innocents is used to create the Aegis that protects the Grey Knights. The Imperium is the most brutal regime imaginable. It is defined just like that in the background.

One more thing: why "pure"? Pure according to who? The Emperor? Malcador, the Grey Knights, the Librarians, the astropaths, the navigators... all of them are mutants. Yet the Imperium uses them.

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 Swastakowey wrote:

Yes but chaos isnt exactly uniting. im fairly sure if there was no imperium there would not be many humans left. Dont chaos fight each other frequently? And frankly i know how bad the imperium can be but i would still stay with them as i see it as far far less evil than chaos.

Why so? There were lots of human worlds before the Imperium launched his Crusade, and they were faring well enough. Many Horus Heresy books talk about characters questioning themselves about the massacre they are doing. Countless civilizations reduced to ashes.

One thing is true though: the Imperium offers unity. That´s its greatest strength. Chaos believes in worlds that are strong by themselves, while the Imperium worlds help each other (technically). What will happen when the Light of the Astronomicon is no longer there? The Imperium unity is its greatest weakness too. It has one head. The fall of Terra is the fall of the Imperium. The fall of any Chaos world means nothing.