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The rules for Leaping Down (on page 95) deal with Battlements. The permission there is granted to all units. Therefore, any unit (including a unit falling back) on a battlement can leap down.

The rules on page 99 (Gravity-Nature's Downward Express), gives permission for a non-falling back unit to Leap Down as per page 95. As such, unless the unit is not falling back, it does not have permission to utilise the Leaping Down rules while on a ruin.

There has yet to be any permission shown for a falling back unit on a ruins to leap down.

 Bausk wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

(Emphasis mine)

Note what I underlined. Find rules for 'jump down'

I'll wait.

 Bausk wrote:
Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.

That line is a fluff line describing the event. It states you can jump down.. Cite the page for the Jump Down rule. Also cite the page where Falling back units are FORCED to jump down.

 Bausk wrote:
Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.

A). I have FlingItNow on ignore so didn't see his post.
B). That's a general statement. The actual rules for leaping down limit it to non-falling back units.
It's like being able to nominate a unit to move but the actual rules for that units movement forbid movement.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.

A). I have FlingItNow on ignore so didn't see his post.
B). That's a general statement. The actual rules for leaping down limit it to non-falling back units.
It's like being able to nominate a unit to move but the actual rules for that units movement forbid movement.

The rules don't actually forbid the unit from leaping down, they just don't give the player the option of choosing whether or not they leap.

 RobPro wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:
Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.

A). I have FlingItNow on ignore so didn't see his post.
B). That's a general statement. The actual rules for leaping down limit it to non-falling back units.
It's like being able to nominate a unit to move but the actual rules for that units movement forbid movement.

The rules don't actually forbid the unit from leaping down, they just don't give the player the option of choosing whether or not they leap.

No, they don't give falling back units the option to leap - meaning they have no permission to do so. There's no actual rule allowing it.
All models can jump down. What does that mean? Here's a rule about leaping down - oh, it applies to units that are not falling back. This unit doesn't meet that requirement so that rule cannot apply.

Units that aren't falling back can choose to leap or make a difficult terrain test as normal. Units that are falling back, that cannot continue falling back unless they leap, must leap (per falling back via the shortest route). The unit is not denied the ability to leap in the section you keep quoting, just the ability to choose to leap.

 RobPro wrote:
Units that aren't falling back can choose to leap or make a difficult terrain test as normal. Units that are falling back, that cannot continue falling back unless they leap, must leap (per falling back via the shortest route). The unit is not denied the ability to leap in the section you keep quoting, just the ability to choose to leap.

Care to cite the page that requires them to leap down ?

 RobPro wrote:
Units that aren't falling back can choose to leap or make a difficult terrain test as normal. Units that are falling back, that cannot continue falling back unless they leap, must leap (per falling back via the shortest route). The unit is not denied the ability to leap in the section you keep quoting, just the ability to choose to leap.

Can you cite where it says they must leap?
Can you cite rules allowing falling back units to leap?
The only rules that have been quoted give a general allowance but no "how to" and the "how to" rule has a restriction attached (that you're ignoring).

Fragile wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
Units that aren't falling back can choose to leap or make a difficult terrain test as normal. Units that are falling back, that cannot continue falling back unless they leap, must leap (per falling back via the shortest route). The unit is not denied the ability to leap in the section you keep quoting, just the ability to choose to leap.

Care to cite the page that requires them to leap down ?

If the only way to continue falling back would be by leaping down, it looks like they must do it. They're not allowed to choose (elect) to leap down, but nowhere does it state they cannot leap down. If they cannot continue falling back (via the shortest route without doubling back) without leaping down, then they must leap down. It is no longer a choice if it is the only way for the unit to fulfill it's fallback move.

 RobPro wrote:
but nowhere does it state they cannot leap down.

and here is the flaw in your argument.

The rules do not say that I cannot place my models back on the board after they are killed, but that does not mean I can do it. The rules system is permissive. This means you are only allowed to do what the rules say you can do.

Yes, and you do not have permission to choose whether your falling back units will leap down or not. This does not mean they cannot leap down, it means they can only leap down if it is the only way to continue their fall back move.

 RobPro wrote:
Yes, and you do not have permission to choose whether your falling back units will leap down or not. This does not mean they cannot leap down, it means they can only leap down if it is the only way to continue their fall back move.

Except there is no permission for falling back units to leap down (willfully or not) from ruins. Only Battlements allow any units to leap down.

 RobPro wrote:
Yes, and you do not have permission to choose whether your falling back units will leap down or not. This does not mean they cannot leap down, it means they can only leap down if it is the only way to continue their fall back move.

Now find permission, anywhere, for falling back units to leap down

You cannto do something unless you have permission. Find this permission.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

(Emphasis mine)

Note what I underlined. Find rules for 'jump down'

I'll wait.

See the figure "Jumping Down" page 99 and the paragraph under "Gravity - Nature's Downward Express".

The figure explains how impact tests work the paragraph explains that all units can jump down and that those units take impact tests.

IMO due to the wording of Leap / jumping in both sections, looks like it was intended to say the same things just they spaffed up the words, They have used jump and leap interchangeably. Even the Ruins section on it tells you 'descending through a building' Yeaaah, no wander people get confused over the difference, apparently even the writers were. But no, they've left a huge chunk out of the rule for ruins, and only referenced Page 95 for the impact test, though leap down is noted in the index as page 95 and 95 only.

So RAW no leaping down of any kind in ruins. This has been productive.

HIWPI, Can elect to leap down (unless falling back). HIWPI Leaping down is not limited by movement distance ( as in battlement rules). Or its the most pointless rule ever thought of.
I originally posted not forced to leap down but I'm going to change that to on the bench/don't really care / whatever my opponent does is gravy. For a start 2/3D6 is probably going to clear you without needing to. And not sure that shortest route was really referring to such instances. Not sure if there's anything that would allow you to roll for fall back then leap, or leap then roll for fall back as 'leap' or jump seems to consume your normal movement which is a bit tricksy as rolling a distance is not a normal movement type. Then to leap your not actually following the rules for falling back, which requires XD6 which may be the crunch point.

Though I would be happy to play forced to leap, seems fluffy. Kakking your pants and running for your life you'd probably jump rather than a careful set up your climbing equipment or locate the nearest emergency exit.

 RobPro wrote:
Yes, and you do not have permission to choose whether your falling back units will leap down or not. This does not mean they cannot leap down, it means they can only leap down if it is the only way to continue their fall back move.

There is no permission for falling back units to leap down (willfully or not) from ruins at all.

'A unit that is not falling back can choose...' is not the same thing as 'units that are falling back must...', you can see the difference in the two sentences right?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

(Emphasis mine)

Note what I underlined. Find rules for 'jump down'

I'll wait.

See the figure "Jumping Down" page 99 and the paragraph under "Gravity - Nature's Downward Express".

The figure explains how impact tests work the paragraph explains that all units can jump down and that those units take impact tests.

Hmm interesting I only see rules for Leaping down, not jumping down. Mind giving a quote please.

Check the section the quotes are already here except for the stuff in the jumping down figure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to use the leaping down rules on page 95 for ruins they don't work as they only talk about buildings not ruins. If that's what you're trying to get at?

Look at the charge rules they also say move your closest model to your nearest enemy using the shortest route. I assume if my model was on top of the ruins you wouldn't insist that I leap down and take an impact hit on my models before I finish my charge.


Route = the path you must take not the method, no where in the ruins section of the brb does it say you must leap down. Thought it clearly states you cannot elect to do so whilst falling back.

FlingitNow,

The rules for leaping down from ruins directs back to the rules for leaping down from battlements. The difference is while any unit is given permission to leap down from battlements, only a non-falling back unit that is descending is given permission to use those rules to leap down from ruins.

The rules for leaping down from ruins directs back to the rules for leaping down from battlements.

Not true the only rules on page 95 that are referenced are impact tests.

The difference is while any unit is given permission to leap down from battlements, only a non-falling back unit that is descending is given permission to use those rules to leap down from ruins.

Only if you believe jumping down and leaping down are different (which I don't but RAW there is an argument both ways). Fortunately between the figure called jumping down and the rules on jumping down on page 99 give you enough to go on.

Well lets see.

If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down. This as it sounds, is really quite dangerous and bound to end with a sickening snapping noise, but desperation can often make such things necessary.

I'm not seeing it, but I could be wrong. Where in the above are rules? Please highlight them for me. The only rules I see are in the very next sentences:

A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test. However, all descending models in the unit must take an Impact test (see page 95)

And there is no permission given for a falling back unit to leap down.

Sigh. Please read the thread this has already been covered. But all the information you need is covered in the first sentence you quote and the last then add in the figure about jumping down and presto.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Sigh. Please read the thread this has already been covered. But all the information you need is covered in the first sentence you quote and the last then add in the figure about jumping down and presto.

So are you unable or unwilling to highlight my quote?

I have done so. As I stated the first and last sentence of your quote is what you are looking for. Plus the jumping down figure on page 99. As pointed out this has been stated repeatedly. Why ask for the same stuff over and over?

Except there are no rules for "Jumping down" in what I quoted. You keep claiming there are yet there are not.

The reason people keep asking fling, is you haven't actually produced a rule yet. "Jump down" isn't a rule, so the first sentence can only be fluff text.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Check the section the quotes are already here except for the stuff in the jumping down figure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to use the leaping down rules on page 95 for ruins they don't work as they only talk about buildings not ruins. If that's what you're trying to get at?

No, I mean there are literally zero rules for Jumping down. (If you find some please supply a quote so we can tell what exactly you are talking about).

Leaping down has rules but not jumping down.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I have done so. As I stated the first and last sentence of your quote is what you are looking for. Plus the jumping down figure on page 99. As pointed out this has been stated repeatedly. Why ask for the same stuff over and over?

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

Pg99

Jumping down
Two space marines take dangerous terrain tests to jump down, both roll a 3 for their impact tests, the space marine on the left survives: He's only falling 3'', and so only suffers a -1 penalty to the test. The space marine on the right is falling 6'' giving him a -2 modifier which turns his 3 into a 1 - he is therefore removed as a casualty.

Jump / leap are used interchangeably, this is reaaaaaally clear by just flicking through the relevant rules. Within the battlements
Abandon the battlements!
Section explains units that are falling back must jump for it - resolve as described in leaping down. While this is defiantly in under battlements ....

Put with the wording around can elect if your not falling back in the ruins section actually, while writers spaffed up the wording, looks like pretty good case of RAI. on further reading I am pretty sure that RAI is in strong favour of having to leap down when falling back, from a ruins.


RAW might not be in favour, but personally I believe the case is strong enough to warrant a FAQ, to clear what they meant.

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

I have can you quote rules for leaping down from a ruin?