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 FlingitNow wrote:

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

You missed a significant portion of that rule...

"If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down...[Fluff removed] A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level" (99)

The rule specifies that the unit must not be falling back.

Not sure why, in the section for ruins, they mention buildings. Just sloppy writing I guess.

You've cropped the 2nd sentence I've already covered that point on the previous page.

Dat Guy wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

I am posting because this is the most ridiculous contradiction ever, vertical stands for up and down, it does not mean just up. If you move up or down in a ruin it's difficult terrain that's why in your own quote it says on a roll of 1 or 2 the model can't Move vertical/up or down.

I never said vertical only meant up... Not sure what your point is with that.
And yes, moving up or down in difficult terrain means you roll. Guess what you ignore when falling back?

Also where is this stairs nonsense? All stairs determine if players only allow movement between floors if there are stairs, no where does it state stairs are a separate entity from ruins.

It's easier to say "stairs" than "vertical movement".
And the rule I quoted shows that there is a difference between vertical movement and ruins.

It would be more reasonable if models were REQUIRED to jump down when falling back. Would make camping in ruins that much more dangerous. But alas, that is not the case.

Anyway, I agree that the levels you descend while falling back are indeed reduced from the fall back distance. Moving down (or up) levels in ruins costs 3", therefore I have no idea why people think that ignoring difficult terrain suddenly changes this. You could as well have intact buildings with balconies that are not difficult terrain, yet you would still pay 3" for descending or ascending them.

 FlingitNow wrote:
the models can always jump down". So we know all models can jump down even if falling back only falling back models can't elect to do it rather than take a DT test, which makes perfect sense as falling back models never take DT tests.

No, falling back models can not jump down even if falling back...

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level" (99)

Says that only units that are not falling back can.

 FlingitNow wrote:
You've cropped the 2nd sentence...

The rest of the sentence still does not allow falling back models to jump down.

Dang. My group has played that falling back models Leap Down, because they're so afraid of whatever it is that made them run in the first place.
Now we'll have to take that fun bit out... :(

No, falling back models can not jump down even if falling back...

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level" (99)

Says that only units that are not falling back can.

That is not what that says though is it. Again you've cropped the statement to try to create a restriction that simply isn't in the rules. That statement is an allowance to jump down instead of taking a difficult terrain test. The part that says "not falling back" is actually functionally redundant in the sentence (as units falling back don't ever take difficult terrain tests). The permission for any unit to jump down is given in the first sentence, but only units not falling back get to jump down rather than take their difficult terrain test.

Then their is a sentence that tells us what happens to models that jump down.

Here is the whole quote "A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

If they are falling back they can not elect to leap down.

Plain and simple RAW.

If they are falling back they can not elect to leap down

That is not what the rule says. The rule is permission not a restriction. It is permission to jump down instead of doing a difficult terrain test. Falling back units don't take difficult terrain tests so could never use this rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Here is the whole quote "A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

If they are falling back they can not elect to leap down.

...and instead must Leap Down? That's a possible interpretation, perhaps?

 FlingitNow wrote:
That is not what the rule says. The rule is permission not a restriction. It is permission to jump down instead of doing a difficult terrain test. Falling back units don't take difficult terrain tests so could never use this rule.

There aretwo statements. The first just says that 'units' can elect to jump. The second, in bold text, specifies that units that are not falling back can elect to jump.

As I read it, the first statement is intended to serve as an introduction to the rule, not a rule in itself... because if we're meant to take that statement as blanket permission for all units, falling back or not, to jump down, there is no point in the bolded rule statement being there.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

Sure, but Can't Trumps can in a permissive ruleset.

You can't move more than 6 inches.

You can leap down...

Show me where Leap Down is a movement and not a placement.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

Sure, but Can't Trumps can in a permissive ruleset.

You can't move more than 6 inches.

You can leap down...

Show me where Leap Down is a movement and not a placement.

"That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test," (95) (Emphasis mine)

"rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

When are DT tests made?

"each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90) (Emphasis mine)

There aretwo statements. The first just says that 'units' can elect to jump. The second, in bold text, specifies that units that are not falling back can elect to jump.

That's not what the second statement says though is it. What is actually says is that units not falling back can avoid a difficult terrain by electing to jump down. The fact that falling back units never take difficult terrain tests means that functionally the exclusion of falling back units in the statement is redundant as even without it the falling back unit would not be able to perform that action.

There is permission to jump down in the first sentence. There is no denial of permission in the boulded sentence. Therefore falling back units may jump down. If it is the shortest route then they must jump down.

You are not understanding what the sentence says fling...

It is a restriction.

""A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can..."

If they are not falling back, and they are descending through a building then they can...

 DeathReaper wrote:
You are not understanding what the sentence says fling...

It is a restriction.

""A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can..."

If they are not falling back, and they are descending through a building then they can...

And what can they do? It is not a restriction on jumping down it is a restriction on the action it is giving you permission to take. What is that action?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You are not understanding what the sentence says fling...

It is a restriction.

""A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can..."

If they are not falling back, and they are descending through a building then they can...

And what can they do? It is not a restriction on jumping down it is a restriction on the action it is giving you permission to take. What is that action?

The action is jumping down...

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

They can take this action "Leap Down" instead of "Difficult Terrain test" to move through the terrain.

Since they specifically point out that the unit must not be falling back, then a falling back unit may never elect to leap down.

DR, I think the issue they are trying to get at is whether the choice to jump becomes compulsory because the unit can no longer elect (or choose) whether it jumps when falling back. The language can be read either way.

Can units jump up levels or only down? Don't have the book in front of me.

 RobPro wrote:
DR, I think the issue they are trying to get at is whether the choice to jump becomes compulsory because the unit can no longer elect (or choose) whether it jumps when falling back. The language can be read either way.

Can units jump up levels or only down? Don't have the book in front of me.

No, the only allowance for leaping down is for units that are not falling back.

The rules do not say that falling back units must leap down, this is not a rule anywhere in the book.

Also, you can only leap down, no leaping up.

The only permission in that sentence is for non-falling back units. There's no permission (or compulsion) for falling back units.

It's in their wording. They may no longer ELECT to jump, which means they can't choose whether or NOT they jump. It doesn't say they can't jump, just that they no longer have the ability to choose. So does that mean jumping becomes compulsory, or that they can't jump?

Do you see the issue?

 RobPro wrote:
It's in their wording. They may no longer ELECT to jump, which means they can't choose whether or NOT they jump. It doesn't say they can't jump, just that they no longer have the ability to choose. So does that mean jumping becomes compulsory, or that they can't jump?

Do you see the issue?

No, the rules do not say they must jump, therefore they can not. (Permissive ruleset tells us this is true).

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can..."

Does not mean [Units that are falling back must...]

 RobPro wrote:
It's in their wording. They may no longer ELECT to jump, which means they can't choose whether or NOT they jump. It doesn't say they can't jump, just that they no longer have the ability to choose. So does that mean jumping becomes compulsory, or that they can't jump?

Do you see the issue?

I see the issue in you misapplying the rule.
They cannot elect to jump. There is no permission to jump without electing to jump. Therefore they cannot jump.

Can means there is choice. Falling back units lose that choice. The rules are not specific as to what they MUST do instead.

 RobPro wrote:
Can means there is choice. Falling back units lose that choice.

Ecactly, therefore units that are falling back lose the option of leaping down, therefore they can not perform that option.

The rules are not specific as to what they MUST do instead.

The rules are quite clear on how a falling back unit moves...

The action is jumping down...

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

They can take this action "Leap Down" instead of "Difficult Terrain test" to move through the terrain.

Since they specifically point out that the unit must not be falling back, then a falling back unit may never elect to leap down.

The action is not jumping down though is it. The rule clearly states what the action is and it is an action that is impossible for a falling back unit to take with or with the wording mentioning a falling back unit.

The only permission in that sentence is for non-falling back units. There's no permission (or compulsion) for falling back units.

In that sentence yes but in the first sentence of that paragraph falling back units are given permission.

 FlingitNow wrote:

The only permission in that sentence is for non-falling back units. There's no permission (or compulsion) for falling back units.

In that sentence yes but in the first sentence of that paragraph falling back units are given permission.

Citation needed, because I do not see where falling back units are allowed...

 RobPro wrote:
Can means there is choice. Falling back units lose that choice. The rules are not specific as to what they MUST do instead.

Correct - non-falling back units have a choice. Choice to do what? Jump off.
Is there any mention of jumping off being allowed for falling back units? No.
Therefore there's no permission to jump.

Falling back units cannot Leap Down.

That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test," (95) (Emphasis mine)

"rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

When are DT tests made?

"each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90) (Emphasis mine)

This does nothing to show placing = moving. Exactly like does not mean it is a DT test. Even if it did placing would satisfy the "entering" part of your example.

Fragile wrote:
Falling back units cannot Leap Down.

That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test," (95) (Emphasis mine)

"rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

When are DT tests made?

"each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90) (Emphasis mine)

This does nothing to show placing = moving. Exactly like does not mean it is a DT test. Even if it did placing would satisfy the "entering" part of your example.

Sure it does, unless you ignore: "each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90)

DT tests are made when? (A: entering, leaving or moving through DT..) It happens when models move...