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 Insane Smile wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
They are amazing, mere men against the horrors of the galaxy, sirly english accents, awesome tanks and aircraft <3

They may be "mere men" but they can deploy more soldiers to a given battle than there are people on Planet Earth if need be and keep on funneling more soldiers at a rate higher than our planet's birth rate if the battle demands it.

Yes they can all be thrown into a meat grinder, but it is the mere men that are doing the work. Each and everyone of them is a person, the Joe from down the road. Those mere men are forced to fight the horrors.

Honestly if I had the soldiers to do it, I'd totally try smothering a planet in guardsmen. No guns, just dumping Imperial citizens out of shuttles until the enemy was crushed beneath their body mass.

For the Lulz.

 Insane Smile wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
They are amazing, mere men against the horrors of the galaxy, sirly english accents, awesome tanks and aircraft <3

They may be "mere men" but they can deploy more soldiers to a given battle than there are people on Planet Earth if need be and keep on funneling more soldiers at a rate higher than our planet's birth rate if the battle demands it.

Yes they can all be thrown into a meat grinder, but it is the mere men that are doing the work. Each and everyone of them is a person, the Joe from down the road. Those mere men are forced to fight the horrors.

I dunno, but I'm pretty sure that Joe from down the road would barely fit for a conscript.

IMHO, Guardsmen are anything but ordinary people. They are the best humanity has to offer with each of them being more than capable to face the superhuman horrors of the galaxy. They are the USCM from the Aliens movies: the badass hoooorah oscar-mike space soldiers. They have guns that shoot SCIENCE, they have ordnance that can deliver its payload from a continent away, they have missiles that tear the fabric of reality into pieces and they can deploy enough boots and threads on the ground to drown their opponents into a unrelenting wave of steel and flesh.

I think the biggest magic of the Imperial Guard is that they are easiest power fantasy material. You don't have to comprehend superhuman viewpoints or LULascit technology - it is just guns, badassry, guns, manliness and even more guns. And at the end of the day, you can still have your excuse for playing the "mere men" instead of submerging into the deepest depths of raw sword&sorcery style power fantasy.

Guardsmen just seem so confused for me. People can't decide if they are the super-weak underdogs that nonetheless face the ridiculously overpowered horrors of the galaxy, and are heroic for it, or if they go around and easily wreck face with superior tanks and infantry that is not-that-inferior to Marines and Eldar.

It's as if people want the best of both worlds.

'Look how my very-weak-but-brave-and-therefore-likeable guys kick the butts of your Astartes without breaking a sweat! So much for Marines ololollololo'

If a meltagun, a twitchy trigger finger, and a smug smile is all it takes for a 'heroic' rampage and to take down some lovecraftian demigod, is the melta-dude they really that heroic?

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

Ok,

Regular = (cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry) Otherwise known as the Imperial Guard.

Happy now

++End Transmission++

Alfonz wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

Ok,

Regular = (cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry) Otherwise known as the Imperial Guard.

Happy now

++End Transmission++

I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

Ok,

Regular = (cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry) Otherwise known as the Imperial Guard.

Happy now

++End Transmission++

I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I Agree, Like i said, to be able to stand up against enemies, most of whome tower above you and not afraid to still fight them.
Pretty elite.

++End Transmission++

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

Well, modern infantry in WH40K has stormbolters, special armour design (not only PA of course), eldar hi-tech weapons etc. Modern infantry is genetically enhanced, walks path of warrior, has battlesuits. IG has flashlights, lucky ones got lascannon and the most badass meltas or can melt their own hands with plasma weapons And of course, very efficient flak armor

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

Well, modern infantry in WH40K has stormbolters, special armour design (not only PA of course), eldar hi-tech weapons etc. Modern infantry is genetically enhanced, walks path of warrior, has battlesuits. IG has flashlights, lucky ones got lascannon and the most badass meltas or can melt their own hands with plasma weapons And of course, very efficient flak armor

I meant our infantry, as in real life infantry.

Don't be cheeky with me,

 Kain wrote:

 UlrikDecado wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Alfonz wrote:
++Priority Transmission++
++Thought for the Day: Death to the False God Emperor++

I don't play guard but i still think they are awesome.

Seriously how awesome are a bunch on Regular humans, being able to fight and survive against 7-8 foot tall superhumans, demons from the warp, Massive swarms of fast moving Alien creatures.
Plus they can be used in with loyalist armies, and Traitor armies alike.

I plan on buying some Cadian Guard to use with ym Nurgle Chaos Marines.
Basically use them as a wall of Flesh, like a Chais God would.

++End Transmission++

If by Regular you mean the cream of the PDF crop and better trained, in better condition, and better equipped than modern infantry, sure.

Well, modern infantry in WH40K has stormbolters, special armour design (not only PA of course), eldar hi-tech weapons etc. Modern infantry is genetically enhanced, walks path of warrior, has battlesuits. IG has flashlights, lucky ones got lascannon and the most badass meltas or can melt their own hands with plasma weapons And of course, very efficient flak armor

I meant our infantry, as in real life infantry.

Don't be cheeky with me,

Oh I didnt mean to disrespect you,mate. Its just.my style of friendly chatting about common theme
But I dont think that comparison with 20th century military isnt in place. You have to put their equipment into context of other imperial units and enemies. An that means that IG infantry is on the lowest levels.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
An that means that IG infantry is on the lowest levels.

No, that's the PDF. The IG is mid-ground at worst. Their tech level is actually pretty darn high since they use the same plasma/melta/SCIENCE weapons the others do but they don't have access to some of the most über-advanced tech because the scarce resources and general stupidity.

What I really like about the IG is that they quite nicely fill the holes I feel the CSM codex has, while it remains fluffy to have some traitor guardsmen on my side.

 Kain wrote:


I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

Not when compared to, literally, every other army in the game they aren't. They are people armed with flashlights, dressed in cardboard armor, driving tractors with big guns.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Kain wrote:


I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

Not when compared to, literally, every other army in the game they aren't. They are people armed with flashlights, dressed in cardboard armor, driving tractors with big guns.

I don't know of anyone who produces tanks that are overall superior to the Leman Russ. The Eldar and Tau have to compromise on armor, Chaos has to steal leman russ tanks or make do with inferior vehicles, the Ork vehicles are all inferior pound for pound, the Space Marines use weaker tanks, and the Tyranids, Dark Eldar and Necrons don't even use tanks.

 Kain wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Kain wrote:


I'm just pointing out that technically, the Guard are pretty elite.

Not when compared to, literally, every other army in the game they aren't. They are people armed with flashlights, dressed in cardboard armor, driving tractors with big guns.

I don't know of anyone who produces tanks that are overall superior to the Leman Russ. The Eldar and Tau have to compromise on armor, Chaos has to steal leman russ tanks or make do with inferior vehicles, the Ork vehicles are all inferior pound for pound, the Space Marines use weaker tanks, and the Tyranids, Dark Eldar and Necrons don't even use tanks.

That doesn't change the fact that the Leman Russ is based on an STC for a tractor.

Suck it, Xenos, our farming equipment is better at war than your military hardware!

The thing that really kills the Guard for me are their vehicles. I much prefer the IFV/APC feel of Space Marines with their vehicles and the just the appearance of the Land Raider, and the cybernetic organisms the Chaos Space Marine employ (AKA, Daemon Engines). The Guard vehicles just on large feel either dull and bland or just look even worse. I love the Baneblade and it's variants, but I just hate the appearance of the Leman Russ and most of the other Guard vehicles. The only parts of the Guard I like are some variants of the Chimera, the Valkyrie, and Stormtroopers. If they released some more modernized vehicles, I'd certainly be enticed, it's just that nearly all of their design I find rather off-putting.

Modernized vehicles?

This is the Imperium we're talking about! If it was good enough 15,000 years ago, by the Throne, it's good enough for now!

 Wyzilla wrote:
The thing that really kills the Guard for me are their vehicles. I much prefer the IFV/APC feel of Space Marines with their vehicles and the just the appearance of the Land Raider, and the cybernetic organisms the Chaos Space Marine employ (AKA, Daemon Engines). The Guard vehicles just on large feel either dull and bland or just look even worse. I love the Baneblade and it's variants, but I just hate the appearance of the Leman Russ and most of the other Guard vehicles. The only parts of the Guard I like are some variants of the Chimera, the Valkyrie, and Stormtroopers. If they released some more modernized vehicles, I'd certainly be enticed, it's just that nearly all of their design I find rather off-putting.

The Imperial Guard's overall aesthetic for vehicle design is either early or pre-cold war with an emphasis on the world wars.

The Space Marines are Micheal Spark's wet dream of using the m113 in space for literally everything.

Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

A Royal Marine trains for 46 weeks before they're considered to have completed BASIC training. They then have to go off and do their specialty training on top of that. And while Royal Marines are considered to very good at what they do, they're regular infantry. Not special forces.

Sure, the Cadian's are trained from birth I'll grant you that, and perhaps the Vostroyans as well. But overall, these regiments are the exceptions, rather than the rule, in 40K fluff where the Guard are concerned.

What training did the Tanith receive before been thrown into a meat-grinder? Not 46 weeks let me tell you. The IG get as much drill time as the journey to the battlespace allows. That could be 3 months, it could be three days.

With the exception of the elite units from the fluff, most guardsmen have more in common with the WWII Russian infantry rushed to the front without sufficient training or equipment.

Way I see it, if you really want to bring in a modern comparison here (with the caveats that entails) then Imperial Guard are the equivalent to regular, first world infantry while the pdf are (for the most part) the equivalent of third world armies.

That's not to say that there aren't some kick-ass third world armies out there (the Nigerians and Kenyans for example, have some of the most battle-hardened, combat experienced sodiers you will ever come across, anywhere). It's their equipment and basic training, rather than their developed battle drills, which are crap.

Likewise, in 40K, while some pdf units are little more than pampered palace peacocks, some pdf's, especially those from worlds with an ork infestation (like Valhalla), are actually pretty decent. Even taking into account the cream being siphoned into the Guard.

P.S Special Ops soldiers, while extremely highly trained, are still ordinary human beings and not supermen. Ordinary beings that take on the most difficult tasks assigned to a modern soldier, but ordinary human beings nonetheless. Moreover, they're usually the first to tell you that what they do is rarely what can be called "heroic." There's nothing Heroic about sitting on your rear-end in a basha for 3 weeks, gaking in a bag and pissing into empty water bottles while watching a cave, house or abandoned lot that just "might" have something of interest in it. Nor is there anything especially heroic in splattering some guys brains all over a wall from 800 yards away. Or calling in an airstrike on a piece of real-estate that you know for certain has kids present just because some sleazy intel type thinks a "target of interest" could be in there. Yes, Special Ops guys are often called upon to do "heroic" things, especially hostage rescue. But it's a very dirty job. I've never yet many any who would describe themselves as "Heroic".

{Sorry for all the edits. I keep noticing spelling mistakes that are driving me crazy ]

 Wyzilla wrote:
I much prefer the IFV/APC feel of Space Marines

The M113 is not the only IFV/APC in the world.

Actually, the Chimera looks very much like an APC, the Canadian AVGP series if you put tracks on them. Which looks far cooler than an M113, and is also better in almost every way

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry. ETA: And, before people say, "It takes all of that discipline to stand up against the horrors of the galaxy!" they need to consider the fact that death is essentially death, and modern soldiers have willingly died in both of our recent wars in situations that make running into a Blade Storm look like fun.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

So much like the Ultramarines themselves.

But regardless, the American Army is built as more of an offensive force, rather than a defensive one, so I would hardly begrudge them that. They would be more equivalent to an IG light infantry regiment that then an IG line infantry regiment, judging based off of the stats for both of these in Only War.

An IG Line Infantry regiment is closer to WWII style infantry, while an IG Siege Infantry regiment is closer to WWI-- trench warfare style.

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

The kind of enemies that the Imperium faces aren't the kind of enemies that our mindset are capable of handling. Chaos and Genestealers would destroy most religiously tolerant societies. The Necrons and Chaos can shut down tech-reliant societies with ease thanks to scrap code and malignant signals. The Tyranids attack virtually every point on a planet simultaneously with a constant rain of spores while coming in far greater numbers than you have munitions to deal with and rapidly adapt to your tactics on the fly.

The American military would be facing billions upon billions of fearless opponents with total space superiority that enacts a widespread sense of dread and terror with the shadow in the warp while simultaneously attacking from the ground, from below the ground, and from above. There would be no rest, no pause, none of the quirks of human psychology that the American military is used to exploiting to play against while the enemy certainly has demonstrated knowledge of how to exploit human psychology to sow terror and discord.

The Americans all die rapidly.

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

The kind of enemies that the Imperium faces aren't the kind of enemies that our mindset are capable of handling. Chaos and Genestealers would destroy most religiously tolerant societies. The Necrons and Chaos can shut down tech-reliant societies with ease thanks to scrap code and malignant signals. The Tyranids attack virtually every point on a planet simultaneously with a constant rain of spores while coming in far greater numbers than you have munitions to deal with and rapidly adapt to your tactics on the fly.

The American military would be facing billions upon billions of fearless opponents with total space superiority that enacts a widespread sense of dread and terror with the shadow in the warp while simultaneously attacking from the ground, from below the ground, and from above. There would be no rest, no pause, none of the quirks of human psychology that the American military is used to exploiting to play against while the enemy certainly has demonstrated knowledge of how to exploit human psychology to sow terror and discord.

The Americans all die rapidly.

You are describing situations in which Guardsmen die quickly too. We aren't talking about American society or equipment. We are talking about modern infantry, and the level of training they receive relative to Guardsmen.

My argument is that American soldiers have willingly jumped on grenades to save their friends. Guardsmen only stand and fight because if they run, they will be shot in the back by a commissar. As a military institution, they have very poor discipline.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

The kind of enemies that the Imperium faces aren't the kind of enemies that our mindset are capable of handling. Chaos and Genestealers would destroy most religiously tolerant societies. The Necrons and Chaos can shut down tech-reliant societies with ease thanks to scrap code and malignant signals. The Tyranids attack virtually every point on a planet simultaneously with a constant rain of spores while coming in far greater numbers than you have munitions to deal with and rapidly adapt to your tactics on the fly.

The American military would be facing billions upon billions of fearless opponents with total space superiority that enacts a widespread sense of dread and terror with the shadow in the warp while simultaneously attacking from the ground, from below the ground, and from above. There would be no rest, no pause, none of the quirks of human psychology that the American military is used to exploiting to play against while the enemy certainly has demonstrated knowledge of how to exploit human psychology to sow terror and discord.

The Americans all die rapidly.

You are describing situations in which Guardsmen die quickly too. We aren't talking about American society or equipment. We are talking about modern infantry, and the level of training they receive relative to Guardsmen.

My argument is that American soldiers have willingly jumped on grenades to save their friends. Guardsmen only stand and fight because if they run, they will be shot in the back by a commissar. As a military institution, they have very poor discipline.

The Imperial military fought and held at Maccragge despite the odds and died where they stood for the Imperium. The American military would have likely broken and routed had they replaced the guardsmen.

The commissars are necessary because of all the enemies who can do so much more to enact fear than anything ever historically seen on the battlefield. Some of them can break a man's will just for being observed. Others can snap apart morale with just a single thought.

Also, if you're going to cherry pick. For every ridiculous stereotype (Chenkov et al) you have the likes of the Tanith, the Death Korps of Krieg as a whole, or the Valhallan 597th who more or less are just as skilled and disciplined as any first world fighting force.

IG is popular for a few reasons.

1. Tanks. They have the coolest tanks.
2. In a world full of flying daemons, monstrous creatures that devour entire worlds, super humans with enhanced EVERYTHING, and space elves that can skin you alive and keep you that way for years, at the end of the day, the poor bastard holding the line is an 18 year old recruit with a lasgun and a pack of smokes.
3. Vendettas. I can't wait for the nerf bat!

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 LeadLegion wrote:
Uh Kain.

Better trained that modern infantry?

Are you serious?

I definitely espouse your POV, LeadLegion.

You've got a military organization that is only in part a volunteer military. Its discipline is modeled after the WWII Red Army, where screwups were met with beatings and executions. To say that they're "better trained than modern infantry" reflects a lack of understanding of modern infantry.

IG are completely unidimensional: they stand, often in rank and file, against bad guys and either gun them down or die trying. Even their more specialized light infantry like the Tanith use more or less meatgrinder tactics.



I don't know where people are getting this notion from, that Imperial Guard soldiers are generally trained superior to modern infantry. It isn't reflected in the rules or the actual fluff aside from vague references to an army that "trains from birth." The Spartans also trained from birth at a single unidimensional style of warfare that falls apart when you don't play by THEIR rules. There's a reason nobody is using their tactics today.

Place the American military at the battle of Maccragge and they'd have gotten slaughtered to a man without doing much of note while simultaneously pissing themselves in fear.

Usually when we make borderline insulting comments, we back them up with facts.

The kind of enemies that the Imperium faces aren't the kind of enemies that our mindset are capable of handling. Chaos and Genestealers would destroy most religiously tolerant societies. The Necrons and Chaos can shut down tech-reliant societies with ease thanks to scrap code and malignant signals. The Tyranids attack virtually every point on a planet simultaneously with a constant rain of spores while coming in far greater numbers than you have munitions to deal with and rapidly adapt to your tactics on the fly.

The American military would be facing billions upon billions of fearless opponents with total space superiority that enacts a widespread sense of dread and terror with the shadow in the warp while simultaneously attacking from the ground, from below the ground, and from above. There would be no rest, no pause, none of the quirks of human psychology that the American military is used to exploiting to play against while the enemy certainly has demonstrated knowledge of how to exploit human psychology to sow terror and discord.

The Americans all die rapidly.

You are describing situations in which Guardsmen die quickly too. We aren't talking about American society or equipment. We are talking about modern infantry, and the level of training they receive relative to Guardsmen.

My argument is that American soldiers have willingly jumped on grenades to save their friends. Guardsmen only stand and fight because if they run, they will be shot in the back by a commissar. As a military institution, they have very poor discipline.

The Imperial military fought and held at Maccragge despite the odds and died where they stood for the Imperium. The American military would have likely broken and routed had they replaced the guardsmen.

The commissars are necessary because of all the enemies who can do so much more to enact fear than anything ever historically seen on the battlefield. Some of them can break a man's will just for being observed. Others can snap apart morale with just a single thought.

Also, if you're going to cherry pick. For every ridiculous stereotype (Chenkov et al) you have the likes of the Tanith, the Death Korps of Krieg as a whole, or the Valhallan 597th who more or less are just as skilled and disciplined as any first world fighting force.

Aaaaaand no.

Death is death. Again, modern Western soldiers (not just Americans) have held in horribly desperate situations. They have run into a wall of bullets and died willingly. They have bayonet charged superior forces once they've exhausted their ammunition. It's more common in Eastern armies of course, but "modern infantry" have strapped explosives to themselves and blown themselves up for strategic reasons.

I'm not seeing this disparity of courage at all.