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 Kain wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Winners
1) Imperial Knights. Hard to kill before. Just got harder by a lot.
2) Demons. The psychic powers are hug buffs for demons. Demons can put out a ton of psychic dice. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
3) Grey Knights. The new psychic powers are buffs, and they pump out a ton of warp charges. Also they are now battle brothers with a lot of armies. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
4) Imperial Guard (AM). The new vehicle pen tables are big. The MC debuffs are big.
5) Space Marines. Super scoring Rhinos and Drop pods are ridiculous. Land Raiders are nearly unkillable in many matchups. Walkers are Killing machines.

Losers
1) Tyranids. MC were nerfed in several big ways. FMC's lose vector strikes and can't assault. S6 AP:- can no longer explode anything. Limited AP:2, and no AP:1 weapons.
*Big Gap*
2) Orks. The king of open top vehicles. Squads inside now vulnerable to flamers. Limited AP:2, no AP:1.
3) Dark Eldar. Beaststar is beatable via good deny the witch planning. Lost some battle brothers.
*Big Gap*
4) Tau. Lost of Ovesa Star. Limited ability to deal with armor already, and now worse. New missions favor a moving army not a static gunline. No more Eldar BB. Still a Top tier army.
5) Necrons. Psychic powers get buffed. No Psychers.

The Necrons only really gained from 7e.

Now the guys who really lost from 7e other than the Tyranids would be the Blood Angels who lost fast vehicle from all but ONE model (but still pay the old price) and all their unique psychic powers.

Talk about being kicked while you're down...

 Galorian wrote:

 Kain wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Winners
1) Imperial Knights. Hard to kill before. Just got harder by a lot.
2) Demons. The psychic powers are hug buffs for demons. Demons can put out a ton of psychic dice. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
3) Grey Knights. The new psychic powers are buffs, and they pump out a ton of warp charges. Also they are now battle brothers with a lot of armies. Probably not a top tier army yet, but will be a popular ally.
4) Imperial Guard (AM). The new vehicle pen tables are big. The MC debuffs are big.
5) Space Marines. Super scoring Rhinos and Drop pods are ridiculous. Land Raiders are nearly unkillable in many matchups. Walkers are Killing machines.

Losers
1) Tyranids. MC were nerfed in several big ways. FMC's lose vector strikes and can't assault. S6 AP:- can no longer explode anything. Limited AP:2, and no AP:1 weapons.
*Big Gap*
2) Orks. The king of open top vehicles. Squads inside now vulnerable to flamers. Limited AP:2, no AP:1.
3) Dark Eldar. Beaststar is beatable via good deny the witch planning. Lost some battle brothers.
*Big Gap*
4) Tau. Lost of Ovesa Star. Limited ability to deal with armor already, and now worse. New missions favor a moving army not a static gunline. No more Eldar BB. Still a Top tier army.
5) Necrons. Psychic powers get buffed. No Psychers.

The Necrons only really gained from 7e.

Now the guys who really lost from 7e other than the Tyranids would be the Blood Angels who lost fast vehicle from all but ONE model (but still pay the old price) and all their unique psychic powers.

Talk about being kicked while you're down...

Both of you are probably right. I wanted to list 5 winners and 5 losers. But thanks to the FAQ. Blood Angels are more of a loser than Necrons. Still the #1 loser is clearly Tyranids, especially with the FAQ doing nothing but changing wording, and nerfing the already inferior warlord traits. SitW is now a very minor bonus, and Synapse is still a devastating USR that makes their troops inferior, limits their mobility, and puts them at an immediate disadvantage in the new missions.

I really am fine with all of the new rules except for the unplayable army composition rules, but Tyranid wargear, USRs, and Deployment options were designed so poorly that they are crazy inflexible to play. I can't imagine someone looking at their wargear page, and deciding that they have the right tools to compete with other armies in 7th edition.

I guess this is one good thing about having my SOB being ignored, they haven't received any arbitrary nerfs, broken buffs or fluff retconning yet.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Losers: Orks
+Challenge Wounds spill over
+Tougher Vehicles
+Multi Force Org
-Flamer hits on transported troops
-Assault is still gakky
-No psyker that can use a useful discipline
-No psychic defense, cannot stop spells
-gak allies options
-First homebrew 'fixes' for the game are inevitably "feth Orks, remove multi force org - but retain allies because thats fair and also btw feth orks"
-First new codex of the edition, so won't have any idea how the edition plays when they make it

You forgot a big one.

Big Mek's shield was moved from a 5+ Invulnerable save to a 5+ Cover save.
"Hey boss? What are deez lites on us?"

KFF was always a 5+ cover. its rumored to be a 5+ invul in the new codex, since its kinda pointless as a cover now days.

I don't get how awesome wave serpents are...

'Amazing firepower', really? SL and Shield? That sucks against high toughness things, marines, vehicles.

Honestly do the math and they are practically kittens.

Now they die easier because of the massive jink nerf.

Also its harder for Eldar to get powers off against Grey Knights WAY harder. They get like half as much warp charge compared to GKs.

Personally I think Eldar lose in this edition. Except for the seercouncil list. Which is annoying as that's the lost that needed to be nerfed the most.

Winners: Collectors Losers: Gamers

Jacob29 wrote:
I don't get how awesome wave serpents are...

'Amazing firepower', really? SL and Shield? That sucks against high toughness things, marines, vehicles.

Honestly do the math and they are practically kittens.

Now they die easier because of the massive jink nerf.

Also its harder for Eldar to get powers off against Grey Knights WAY harder. They get like half as much warp charge compared to GKs.

Personally I think Eldar lose in this edition. Except for the seercouncil list. Which is annoying as that's the lost that needed to be nerfed the most.

Wow just wow

Wave Serpents suck -

Amazing firepwoer - yep - as a Super scoring troop transport with powerful guns that slaughters opposing dedicated transports and non MBTs

Is incredably durable with good armour - 12/12 and jink and Serpent shield.

They only die "easy" if they use their super death cheese gun - which isn't great against high toughness - heart bleeds

It was cheese before and now its worse

Slaughter opposing transports? What LOL!!!

A s6 weapon against 11/11 needs fives to glance it.

And that's without any buffs. After playing vs Grey Knights using invisibility it is VERY hard to do damage to them and even without it they don't always die.

Jink save is a massive nerf as snap shots make wave serpents do practically 0 damage.

The only thing the shield is amazing at killing is orkz boyz (wow what a sick counter seeing how Boyz are op right) and Fire Warriors maybe and that's if you even get a lot of shots seeing how the average is 4/5.

Remember the golden rule of the internet everyone, "Don't feed the trolls".

 D6Damager wrote:
The other huge loss to Tau is that Skyfire + Intercept no longer gives full BS skill to ground targets.

Nice thing about Tau is our Velocity Tracker is that the model can choose to use Skyfire or not.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
Remember the golden rule of the internet everyone, "Don't feed the trolls".

I dunno if this is referring to me but I do definitely find Wave Serpent's kiling power very unimpressive.

Which for it's points is fine. But people are acting like they can take down Great Unclean Ones..

They usually only get to shoot off 9ish shots a turn at a mix of s6/7 with max AP 6...

8 wounds against 3+ armour is very unimpressive. A lone WS isn't likely to kill a 11 armoured transport in 1 turn.

Unless I have missed something massive in my codex for the past year the serpent shield doesn't slaughter people, it just chips away.

Winners -

GW in the very short run because they re sold a worse 6th edition rulebook with a few changes to their extreme apologist fanboys for $85.00 a pop.
In the long run every other gaming company because of all the new players they are getting.

Losers -

GW in the long run as their just aren't enough apologist fanboys to keep their quarterly statement where the stock holders want to see it.
The extreme apologist fanboys who put up with GW's crap now can't get a game, everyone else quit.

Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc36Is_6yZw

dresnar1 wrote:
Winners -

GW in the very short run because they re sold a worse 6th edition rulebook with a few changes to their extreme apologist fanboys for $85.00 a pop.
In the long run every other gaming company because of all the new players they are getting.

Losers -

GW in the long run as their just aren't enough apologist fanboys to keep their quarterly statement where the stock holders want to see it.
The extreme apologist fanboys who put up with GW's crap now can't get a game, everyone else quit.

Also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc36Is_6yZw

Baahahaha! It's only that bad if your obsessed with tournament play. Get involved with a crew that likes to play campaigns and scenarios. THATS what 40k was made for. And it's way more fun than pwning people with daemon spam or tau buffmander or some other disgusting unsportsmanlike crap.

I ran into our local "that guy" today at GW. Sure enough, he's building a daemon factory and has already done all the numbers. If he ever shows up at our war gaming club with crap like that I'm going to tell him to piss off. And I know I won't be the only one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if no such club exists in your area, start one! Uni's, independent gaming stores and libraries are good places for them. Make some flyers to leave there and use the internet!

 Kavish wrote:
Baahahaha! It's only that bad if your obsessed with tournament play. Get involved with a crew that likes to play campaigns and scenarios. THATS what 40k was made for. And it's way more fun than pwning people with daemon spam or tau buffmander or some other disgusting unsportsmanlike crap.

I ran into our local "that guy" today at GW. Sure enough, he's building a daemon factory and has already done all the numbers. If he ever shows up at our war gaming club with crap like that I'm going to tell him to piss off. And I know I won't be the only one.

I feel the same way about people who run lists using allies. I'm sure you'd think I was being reasonable if I told you to piss off for not running mono-codex.

Tau - Still an annoying codex, but no longer able to have Buffmanders in a unit with a Riptide, and Taudar is dead, and now you're Snap Firing that Rail Gun. So, hard to say with them.

Eldar - No more Taudar, as I said above. Thank god. But psychic powers (if used moderately), are harder to cast, perils is worse, and typically you can't cast as many powers in a turn, plus wave serpents took a hit. They got put in place, but still over-all an unnecessarily powerful codex.

Tyranids - Good and bad. Overall they have little way to hurt tough vehicles now, aside from Warp Blast, since Smash got nerfed. FMC are harder to ground….in an edition where now you hope they get grounded, since you can't charge the turn you come down, now. Overall, a loser in my book. Was playable before, but no more.

Necrons - Now, I am biased, since I play Necrons, but obvious winners. 13/13/11 skimmers with a better jink, harder to explode, IF they Jink, they're not losing that Serant shield, just some gauss shots, so who cares? Their vehicles can ignore more than half of the Damage chart now. And CHARIOTS. My god the Command Barge is the new OP unit.

Chaos Marines - Everyone hates them apparently, but still strong in my opinion. The Heldrake was finally put in its place, but it still a strong unit, imo.

Chaos Daemons - Cheesy. The new Taudar. I've never played against them, and I never will. Now, I know Screamerstar existed before, but that, on top of Invisibility, and Spawning more daemons? No thanks.

Jacob29 wrote:
Slaughter opposing transports? What LOL!!!

A s6 weapon against 11/11 needs fives to glance it.

And that's without any buffs. After playing vs Grey Knights using invisibility it is VERY hard to do damage to them and even without it they don't always die.

Jink save is a massive nerf as snap shots make wave serpents do practically 0 damage.

The only thing the shield is amazing at killing is orkz boyz (wow what a sick counter seeing how Boyz are op right) and Fire Warriors maybe and that's if you even get a lot of shots seeing how the average is 4/5.

No LOL - just sad truth

its strength 7 not Strength 6 in my Eldar Codex? 3 glances and your tranport is toast. As you say the Average is 4-5 shot - usually twin linked - how does that not slaughter rhinos, immolators etc - do tell?

Wave Serpents = Cheese, everyone knows that.

Tyranids didnt lose that much in their main army, I get an easy potential for up 4 or even 6 flyrants with 2x TL Dev who dont care about the vector striking nerf, are only minorly concerned about the lack of charge after changing altitude as well as the smash hit nerf. But love the fact that they are so much harder to kill through the better jinking and hugely better chances of not being grounded (FMC who shoot well got off ok in this edition, Nids are the only one to have these, they just stay in the air and shoot stuff before getting to a lower altitude).
they also get lost of psychic level which a lot of people here seem to be scared of psycher now, true, my psyker list is kinda meh, but its just barely decent, so im ok with that, for psychic defense I wont be worrying, as a Nid I get lots of psykers.
Psykers dont really scare me that much since I expect people to require 2 warpcharge to cast a lvl1 spell, 4 warpcharges to cast a level 2 spell and 7 warpcharges to cast a lvl3 spell, remember you need a 4+ for it to count. I actually find psykers got nerfed in general (much better spell options for some armies put aside), I like that I get to be a strong denyer of spell as nids but i cast much lesss effeciently then before since I need twice as much warpcharges to cast my spells then before but I only get D6 more warpcharges then before, so if I take more then 3-4lvl of psykers im assuredly losing in casting efficiency compared to before 7th. there are other Wins and loses but Ill stop there

Anyways, yes Nids was a bit of an underdog and maybe they lost a bit of power, but very little all in all.
Now I can put the guys I want however I want. its all about spamming if you want op and our op is just fine to spam if you want to go that route. everyone scoring is awesome

 Lord Lorne Walkier wrote:
Winner: Stormraven.

Up side:

1 ) Its is a Vehicle and thus is harder to destroy.

2 ) It is a transport. Transports now protect their riders form psychic powers.

3 ) It is a transport. Transports now can be used by Battle brothers.

4 ) It is a Flyer. Flyers now jink at 4+.

5 ) It is a Flyer. Flyers are still just as hard to hit as they were in 6th. There were a lot of rumor / wish listing that had the flyers taking a nerff of some kind. Like all snap shots would be BS 2.

6 ) It is a Assault Vehicle. Now that Flying Monstrous Creatures were nerffed, It is one of the few ways you can Zoom in one turn and Hover + Assault (with the troops inside), the next. Thats a total move of up to 66' + assault.

7 ) Assault is now a bit more deadly with the changes to how Challenge works. Any unit geared of to assault, transported in a Raven, will take great advantage to the new challenge rules.

8 ) It can transport a Dreadnought. Dreadnought are a Vehicle and thus are harder to destroy, a Venerable even more so. Dreadnoughts also gain Hammer of Wrath. This increases the power potential of their payload.

9 ) They are not a Helldrake and so did not get hit by their nerff of no 360 shooting!


Down side:

1 ) Zooming Flyers can not score. This is a big problem but is mitigated by the fact that a flyer can hover to score.

2 ) Flyers will crash if it surfers a immobilize result on a roll of 1-2 on a d6. Dose this mean Grav weapons are now something to be worried about?

10) The Aegis Defense Line was removed from the Basic Rule book. Now it might be harder to field them as you might have to also allow the other fortifications in Stronghold Assault. This is the most common Anti Air unit i have run up against.

11 ) It is still the only transport for Jump troops.

Ultramarines: They seemed to have gotten slightly better. I did a few test games with them and the fact that vehicles are able to score helped. Land Raiders got a nice buff with the damage chart change. Having drop pods land near objectives was pretty cool. The changes that Marines really needed did not happen, so I think they stayed put as a mid tier codex.

Tyranids (losers) not like they where really winners to begin with, but the hit to FMC's and there not gaining of any other psyker disciplines kind of means they got the shortest end of the stick? Hell, there my main army and I refuse to play in a tournament now if a GK player is in it, cause it'd be pointless

Kyutaru wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Actually, as i read it:
"No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase" - means that you can summon daemons only once per phase. Even if everyone got the knowledge of a psy-power. You can just attempt to do it with any psyker that knows the spell. But just once per phase.

No because there's a part in the wording of a similar paragraph that shows two units with the same powers can both cast those powers. It only bans a unit from casting repeat powers. I thought the same thing as you at first and had to go back and read carefully as that would break the multiple psyker game they were going for, but I found the section that contradicts what you're saying.

This. It even said in that quote "No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase", as in that unit cannot attempt to cast the same power twice.

krodarklorr wrote:
Tau - Still an annoying codex, but no longer able to have Buffmanders in a unit with a Riptide, and Taudar is dead, and now you're Snap Firing that Rail Gun. So, hard to say with them.

Eldar - No more Taudar, as I said above. Thank god. But psychic powers (if used moderately), are harder to cast, perils is worse, and typically you can't cast as many powers in a turn, plus wave serpents took a hit. They got put in place, but still over-all an unnecessarily powerful codex.

Tyranids - Good and bad. Overall they have little way to hurt tough vehicles now, aside from Warp Blast, since Smash got nerfed. FMC are harder to ground….in an edition where now you hope they get grounded, since you can't charge the turn you come down, now. Overall, a loser in my book. Was playable before, but no more.

Necrons - Now, I am biased, since I play Necrons, but obvious winners. 13/13/11 skimmers with a better jink, harder to explode, IF they Jink, they're not losing that Serant shield, just some gauss shots, so who cares? Their vehicles can ignore more than half of the Damage chart now. And CHARIOTS. My god the Command Barge is the new OP unit.

Chaos Marines - Everyone hates them apparently, but still strong in my opinion. The Heldrake was finally put in its place, but it still a strong unit, imo.

Chaos Daemons - Cheesy. The new Taudar. I've never played against them, and I never will. Now, I know Screamerstar existed before, but that, on top of Invisibility, and Spawning more daemons? No thanks.

Right on point with Necrons and Tau. Daemons im not sold on they got one stupidly OP build that cannot win a tournament because of how long it takes to play and likely will be outlawed because of that and how OP it is otherwise. Screamerstar still screamerstar. At least I can plan to stop Invis now.

Eldar themselves got no worse, Wave Serpents are stronger now that they are undeniably the best super-scoring unit in the game.

Your logic with Tyranids is stupid, they are stronger because you can't ground them as reliably to stop them assaulting thanks to the new swooping-assault changes?? In last edition it wouldn't have stopped them from assaulting even if you did ground them. This is not a buff to FMC's. And then, look at the WS+S+Attacks you are paying for on almost every FMC, they tear it up late game in assault - this is much harder to pull off now. Add in Vector Strikes never being worth it over firing a gun, and the fact that even if they do make it into assault they can no longer use Smash like they could - these guys are undeniably worse, I would much rather take a few more grounding tests thx.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldar and Tau are winners just off the fact alone that they were already the most broken codexs and there was arguably no nerfs to the first one, and no serious nerfs to the second.

You don't need to get better to be a winner, if everyone else who was losing just stays the same or gets worse.

Look at the nerfs given to Space Wolves.

How bout Tyranids ? A low-level codex nerfed even harder.

And sadly, the worst treatment of all was given Blood Angels, who were already at the very bottom rung. Before anyone mentions IC's joining Mephiston, that's one option given compared to every tank now just being a 20-30 pt worse version of the SM one.

Terrible changes.

 Kavish wrote:

Baahahaha! It's only that bad if your obsessed with tournament play. Get involved with a crew that likes to play campaigns and scenarios. THATS what 40k was made for. And it's way more fun than pwning people with daemon spam or tau buffmander or some other disgusting unsportsmanlike crap.

I ran into our local "that guy" today at GW. Sure enough, he's building a daemon factory and has already done all the numbers. If he ever shows up at our war gaming club with crap like that I'm going to tell him to piss off. And I know I won't be the only one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And if no such club exists in your area, start one! Uni's, independent gaming stores and libraries are good places for them. Make some flyers to leave there and use the internet!

Or maybe--start playing a game where you'll pay less or no money for rules written by people who give a crap. You know what's better than wasting time negotiating with my opponent not to make an army that passes a subjective standard of "too good"? Just being able to turn up with what we like and play a game without terrible rules making it possible to break the game so badly.