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Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

 Havok210 wrote:
Since the new edition is out now, I am curious who everyone feels are the winners and losers when it comes to armies. I know it is early, but here are my initial impressions:

Eldar (losers) - Wave Serpents took a hit with Jinx changes. Eldar Psychers may have gotten stronger.

Space Marines (not sure) - from what I have read so far, I am not seeing any real loss or gain for them.

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

What do you all think?

I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

 Crablezworth wrote:
I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I have done my best to stay away from the whole allies thing when I play. I get the whole "Forge a Narrative" idea in theory, but I just see that as an open door to abuse allies for meta gaming. Just my opinion and not condemning those that do use allies.

Wave Serpents became super-scoring, though... And they can still just stay behind terrain for a cover save. And if needed, they can now jink on turn one.

Hardly a blow.

The Necrons lost very little. Jinking gave better saves but the snap shotting is pretty much meaningless to TL tesla weapons, their vehicles are now universally harder to kill, the Necrons can get enough cheap MCs to get enough smashes to break most vehicles anyway, they still have a boatload of ways to crack open all those vehicles or glance them into dust, and now they can make their res orb warriors+ghost arks or night scythe immortals super scoring (also scoring Anni barges and Deathmarks).

Grey Knights (Winners) - Every unit is a psyker, essentially. Great Inquisitors/Librarians. Access to the cheapest ML1 Psyker in the game and can be super scoring, to boot. Add in the benefits they can now reap from battle brothers, and you're going to see a meteoric rise of the Draigowing again.

 TheKbob wrote:
Grey Knights (Winners) - Every unit is a psyker, essentially. Great Inquisitors/Librarians. Access to the cheapest ML1 Psyker in the game and can be super scoring, to boot. Add in the benefits they can now reap from battle brothers, and you're going to see a meteoric rise of the Draigowing again.

Too bad Cron Knights now has so many penalties as a combo.

Otherwise people could make Wardex bash brother lists.

 Havok210 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I have done my best to stay away from the whole allies thing when I play. I get the whole "Forge a Narrative" idea in theory, but I just see that as an open door to abuse allies for meta gaming. Just my opinion and not condemning those that do use allies.

Same here I was justs being facetious. I share your opinion and do condemn those using allies in 40k, apoc, go nuts, 40k needs some regulating.

Well, Necrons didn't lose much as said.
However, I don't see that GK is a winner. Draigowing was dead in the 6th ed. I doubt that the psychic phase will bring it back to top level.
Serpents got a hit. But I think that this is fine as they were overpowered. Now they are the reliable transports that they always have been.

I think necrons have definitely come out on top, virtually no downsides and their vehicles getting harder to kill and gauss not caring about such things means a bit of a win-win

I think you're wrong about tau not losing out, cheesy buffmander + riptide/O'vesa is gone (which is great) but tau hard AV has also taken a hit, its very difficult for tau to crack AV13 and AV14 in 6th as is and with the change to the damage chart tau AV is actually very limited indeed. Guess GW wants people to "spam more missilesides"

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I have done my best to stay away from the whole allies thing when I play. I get the whole "Forge a Narrative" idea in theory, but I just see that as an open door to abuse allies for meta gaming. Just my opinion and not condemning those that do use allies.

Same here I was justs being facetious. I share your opinion and do condemn those using allies in 40k, apoc, go nuts, 40k needs some regulating.

Forsooth, he speaks the truth.

7th actually seems to have some interesting changes, but I'm looking forward to getting together with friends and writing out our own house rules to fix some of the baffling flaws on display (some of which have been pretty glaring since 6th dropped for that matter).

 Kain wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Grey Knights (Winners) - Every unit is a psyker, essentially. Great Inquisitors/Librarians. Access to the cheapest ML1 Psyker in the game and can be super scoring, to boot. Add in the benefits they can now reap from battle brothers, and you're going to see a meteoric rise of the Draigowing again.

Too bad Cron Knights now has so many penalties as a combo.

Otherwise people could make Wardex bash brother lists.

Here's the 2K list I'm thinking of:



So I'm running double Deathstar at 2K.

Draigo is the wound sink for the Termitubbies.

I put Coteaz and Tigurius into units as they get the appropriate spells. Tiggy will be Telepathy for Invisibility and Coteaz will be Sanctic or Divination.

I have 9 super scoring units to include a deathstar, invisible paladins, a Centurion star to handle other death stars as the Paladins approach to wreck face. Vindicare is shieldbreaking away eternal warrior/Invulnurable save wargear to really threaten other decked out beat sticks that couldn't survive against either unit.

I have the models to do this save the 5 sniper scouts.

Daemons got the short end of the stick with the FMC nerf.

It was just about the only thing that the codex had going for it in the first place...

Bobug wrote:
tau hard AV has also taken a hit, its very difficult for tau to crack AV13 and AV14 in 6th as is and with the change to the damage chart tau AV is actually very limited indeed. Guess GW wants people to "spam more missilesides"

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Even only on a 5+ Longstrike with a railgun still insta explodes a tank 55% of the time when he gets a penetrating hit (assuming tank hunter hasn't changed), and even against AV14 he penetrates 55% of the time. That's a 30% chance to kill an AV 14 tank in one hit (and with markerlights he will hit). Not as great as last edition (41%) but the drop in performance still isn't that bad. Also keep in mind Longstrike got quite a bit tougher too.

Deep striking double fusion suits are still quite good at removing hard armor too, even through hull points. Assuming melta hasn't changed anyway.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Havok210 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
I think the primary problem is you're talking about armies and that's an outdated concept, you should be talking about collections. Forge a narrative.

I have done my best to stay away from the whole allies thing when I play. I get the whole "Forge a Narrative" idea in theory, but I just see that as an open door to abuse allies for meta gaming. Just my opinion and not condemning those that do use allies.

Same here I was justs being facetious. I share your opinion and do condemn those using allies in 40k, apoc, go nuts, 40k needs some regulating.

Forsooth, he speaks the truth.

7th actually seems to have some interesting changes, but I'm looking forward to getting together with friends and writing out our own house rules to fix some of the baffling flaws on display (some of which have been pretty glaring since 6th dropped for that matter).

This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want




Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

 Crablezworth wrote:
This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want

Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

But what about 10k? Do I get to just stand on the board and kick things like an emperor titan?

 Freytag93 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want

Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

But what about 10k? Do I get to just stand on the board and kick things like an emperor titan?

Kirby and jervis arrive personally to congratulate you on a a well forged narrative and allow you to use their helicopters rotor blades to blow your opponent's collection off the board. Fallowed by tea and a select assortment of cheese

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Freytag93 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want

Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

But what about 10k? Do I get to just stand on the board and kick things like an emperor titan?

Kirby and jervis arrive personally to congratulate you on a a well forged narrative and allow you to use their helicopters rotor blades to blow your opponent's collection off the board. Fallowed by tea and a select assortment of cheese

And does GW give me control over their company if a league runs a one million point game?

 Kain wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Freytag93 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
This is the easiest way to keep various "camps" happy. I call it "warhammr 40k":

1500pts: 1 force org, 1 detachment

1850pts: allies, fortifications (all the stupid detachment nonsense)

2000-2999pts: super heavies, super mega monstrous creatures, formations knight titans ect

3000pts+: hello crazy, do whatever you want

Bottom line, I may be willing at some point to entertain what I feel is silly crap, but the player would have to earn my trust and frankly I don't trust anyone who can't field 1500pts of 1 codex, painted.

But what about 10k? Do I get to just stand on the board and kick things like an emperor titan?

Kirby and jervis arrive personally to congratulate you on a a well forged narrative and allow you to use their helicopters rotor blades to blow your opponent's collection off the board. Fallowed by tea and a select assortment of cheese

And does GW give me control over their company if a league runs a one million point game?

Jervis will let you watch his kids for the weekend, he'll leave money for pizza.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Bobug wrote:
tau hard AV has also taken a hit, its very difficult for tau to crack AV13 and AV14 in 6th as is and with the change to the damage chart tau AV is actually very limited indeed. Guess GW wants people to "spam more missilesides"

I wouldn't necessarily say that. Even only on a 5+ Longstrike with a railgun still insta explodes a tank 55% of the time when he gets a penetrating hit (assuming tank hunter hasn't changed), and even against AV14 he penetrates 55% of the time. That's a 30% chance to kill an AV 14 tank in one hit (and with markerlights he will hit). Not as great as last edition (41%) but the drop in performance still isn't that bad. Also keep in mind Longstrike got quite a bit tougher too.

Deep striking double fusion suits are still quite good at removing hard armor too, even through hull points. Assuming melta hasn't changed anyway.

Taking into account to-hit rolls and without tank hunter & markerlights factored I make it ~8% chance of one-shot killing an AV14 vehicle as opposed to ~14% in 6th ed. So that seems quite a drop in effectiveness, if my maths is wrong I do apologise On the flip side you are right hammerheads will be a bit more survivable when stationary which is nice, and I am glad that people might try to maybe field more non-skimmer vehicles. Shame really that fielding mass S7 shooting will be just as effective while the hard hitting AT weapons got a nerfing




'

znelson wrote:
Daemons got the short end of the stick with the FMC nerf.

It was just about the only thing that the codex had going for it in the first place...

I completely disagree with you. Now you can have flying tzeentch demons with mastery level 3 pooping out more demons to take objectives that also get free stuff on top of it. Demons are going to be grossly overpowered, especially if you run two basic greater demons with wings and 3 demon princes. You will have 5 fmc's producing 5 troop choices a turn. Sounds downright broken to me.

 Piroko wrote:

znelson wrote:
Daemons got the short end of the stick with the FMC nerf.

It was just about the only thing that the codex had going for it in the first place...

I completely disagree with you. Now you can have flying tzeentch demons with mastery level 3 pooping out more demons to take objectives that also get free stuff on top of it. Demons are going to be grossly overpowered, especially if you run two basic greater demons with wings and 3 demon princes. You will have 5 fmc's producing 5 troop choices a turn. Sounds downright broken to me.

This is true... It'll be interesting to see all the anti-psyker meta.

 Havok210 wrote:

Tau (winners) - I don't see anything that pulls them off their top tier spot, so I would say that is a win.

You serius?

You ARE aware the only thing high-tier about tau was based upon riptide shenanigans with attached ICs or allied eldar psyker buffs, both no longer an option.

Sure, the gunline is still nice, but the cheese is gone.

orks lost out big on speed kults. Open topped vehicles everyone inside takes blast and flamer template hits again.

 Orock wrote:
orks lost out big on speed kults. Open topped vehicles everyone inside takes blast and flamer template hits again.

I think it's only templates and not blasts, but leave someone with the rule book to correct me.

The Necron Trans C'Tan Shard with the Hellstorm Template just got A LOT grosser.

 TheKbob wrote:

 Orock wrote:
orks lost out big on speed kults. Open topped vehicles everyone inside takes blast and flamer template hits again.

I think it's only templates and not blasts, but leave someone with the rule book to correct me.

The Necron Trans C'Tan Shard with the Hellstorm Template just got A LOT grosser.

It's not only wiping out a whole row of transports, it's roasting a fair chunk of the passengers in them too.

I think it's only open topped transports though, otherwise a single T-C'tan would more or less stop a mech list in it's tracks.

Someone at gw hates orks and dark eldar a lot it seems.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Someone at gw hates orks and dark eldar a lot it seems.

Somebody seems to like Daemons a lot.
JJ proudly presented Daemonology. Now we got it. It proves to me that GW is not able to provide balanced rules.

I'm trying my best to not be disheartened by GW's constant bashing of my 'Nids but it is hard. Crones are now nearly worthless with the vector strike nerf. They nerfed the poison reroll, so that's another blow that mostly targets 'Nid melee since there aren't that many other armies with mass poison + strength options. The loss of Biomancy and Telepathy is especially harsh with the new tables being so damn awesome. Area terrain is just gone..? No more charging the turn after swooping so I'm just forced to dakka which is a little bit boring. Smash is nearly worthless now. Add this all together with the 6th ed melee nerfs and shooting buffs, of which there an unjustifiable amount, and you have one sad melee loving 'Nid player. My other main army are the Orks, so I'm hopin' for a cheery june.

I'm not saying that 'Nids are worthless as an army but they definitely lack options compared to the other armies which seem to have just gotten a shitton more fun stuff they can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Tzeentch Herald spam list summoning greater demons and troops and more heralds and whatever else you may want to indulge your greedy little heart with seems pretty disgusting to play with and against, BUT there is one interesting old rule that has been formalized in 7th: You HAVE to agree with your opponent how you select your armies before playing, meaning that you can now legally refuse to play someone with an completely unfun shitstorm of madness list. (You always could, but at least it's official now. )

 Windir83 wrote:
I'm trying my best to not be disheartened by GW's constant bashing of my 'Nids but it is hard. Crones are now nearly worthless with the vector strike nerf. They nerfed the poison reroll, so that's another blow that mostly targets 'Nid melee since there aren't that many other armies with mass poison + strength options. The loss of Biomancy and Telepathy is especially harsh with the new tables being so damn awesome. Area terrain is just gone..? No more charging the turn after swooping so I'm just forced to dakka which is a little bit boring. Smash is nearly worthless now. Add this all together with the 6th ed melee nerfs and shooting buffs, of which there an unjustifiable amount, and you have one sad melee loving 'Nid player. My other main army are the Orks, so I'm hopin' for a cheery june.

I'm not saying that 'Nids are worthless as an army but they definitely lack options compared to the other armies which seem to have just gotten a shitton more fun stuff they can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and the Tzeentch Herald spam list summoning greater demons and troops and more heralds and whatever else you may want to indulge your greedy little heart with seems pretty disgusting to play with and against, BUT there is one interesting old rule that has been formalized in 7th: You HAVE to agree with your opponent how you select your armies before playing, meaning that you can now legally refuse to play someone with an completely unfun shitstorm of madness list. (You always could, but at least it's official now. )

They fething brought back the old poison rules?

feth that.