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Maybe you don't understand my viewpoint and are drawing incorrect conclusions.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Maybe you don't understand my viewpoint and are drawing incorrect conclusions.

I've been reading this thread for quite some time now and you either aren't constructing your argument very well or are contradicting yourself. If PE allows you to ignore the conditional "to hit rolls of 1" on the rule and re roll scatters because they have the ability, then why are you not ignoring the conditional of only "once per turn" for master crafted? You have the ability to re roll with master crafted, so therefore you can re roll as much as you want? Obviously not, because you can't ignore the conditional there. And since you can't ignore that, you can't ignore PE's "to hit rolls of 1". And since you don't ever roll to hit and so can't roll a 1, you can't re roll the scatter for blasts.

You are equating conditions as to whether or not you have the ability to hit with conditions placed upon the to hit roll.

I would appreciate it if you did not assume I do the same.

Your condescending and rude tone aside, if we are misunderstanding your viewpoint and drawing incorrect assumptions, logic would tell you to re word your argument so it can b properly understood no?

It's really quite simple.
I have a model with a master-crafted heavy 2 blast weapon. After firing the first shot I choose to use my ability to re-roll to hit to re-roll the blast per the "re-rolls and blasts" rule. Since I have already chosen to use my 1 re-roll granted by master-crafted I may not choose to re-roll the second shot.

 Ignatius wrote:
Your condescending and rude tone aside, if we are misunderstanding your viewpoint and drawing incorrect assumptions, logic would tell you to re word your argument so it can b properly understood no?

Youre coming in late to a thread where this difference was already explained - page 1, from memory. There are conditions UPON the reroll, and conditions to OBTAIN the reroll. PE places a condition upon the reroll, and has another condition to obtain the reroll - the former is "to hit of a 1" and the second is "when firing against your PE"

Master Crafted has 2 conditions as well - you can use the reroll once per turn, and you can reroll failed to hit. Note that the same form as above applies to help you categorise which is which.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Your condescending and rude tone aside, if we are misunderstanding your viewpoint and drawing incorrect assumptions, logic would tell you to re word your argument so it can b properly understood no?

Youre coming in late to a thread where this difference was already explained - page 1, from memory. There are conditions UPON the reroll, and conditions to OBTAIN the reroll. PE places a condition upon the reroll, and has another condition to obtain the reroll - the former is "to hit of a 1" and the second is "when firing against your PE"

Master Crafted has 2 conditions as well - you can use the reroll once per turn, and you can reroll failed to hit. Note that the same form as above applies to help you categorise which is which.

You cannot apply the same method to Master-Crafted.

PE has the "if" statement separating the two conditions. MC does not. It has 1 condition to obtain the reroll: "one failed roll"
Side B allows Master-Crafted Heavy 4 weapons to re-roll all 4 shots.

If you disagree, please show the "textual clue" that was what allowed PE to work for side B.
As much as i can fully support Side B and their argument, it does not work for Master-Crafted...






Automatically Appended Next Post:
If we go back to the easy colour-code:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy."

Green: Who has the Rule
Red: Effect
Blue: Condition to get effect.

Master Crafted wrote:"allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn"

Green: Who (missing the 1st part)
Red: Effect

There is no "Blue" conditional. There is only "one failed" roll that can be re-rolled. That is the conditional effect. You pick which one of your dice failed To Hit.

If you use the MC reroll twice you've factually broken a rule.
Yes, in theory it could be used multiple times for Blasts and rerolls - but that's irrelevant because using it means you break the MC rule.

I havn't read all 6 pages of comments, this is directly aimed to the OP.

You cannot re-roll to hit blast weapons with the Preferred Enemy rule because there is no numerical number that would result of a "to-hit roll" from a 1-6. Its a directional scatter dice with the addition of two d6 to determine distance that it scatters.

I don't see the debate there.

However with the Master Crafted weapon is another subject.

This thread and this rule issue are always such a mess because people have no qualms about warping their logic to meet their desired result.

Master Crafted allows a possessor to "re-roll one failed To Hit roll per turn with that weapon."

To Hit is a defined term. A model firing a blast weapon never makes a To Hit roll. So, it can never fail a To Hit roll while firing a blast weapon.

The only possible permission for a model to re-roll the scatter dice come from the "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" 'ability' language. If Master Crafted qualifies as an 'ability,' then it allows the scatter dice to be re-rolled. As the re-rolling of the scatter dice does not qualify as a re-roll of a To Hit roll, then the model's once per turn ability to re-roll a to hit a To Hit roll would not be spent upon re-rolling the scatter dice.

Black - en-blue-en the "per turn" part. That is the other conditional - just written differently to the others. It has the same effect as saying "if you use this ability once, you may reroll a to-hit roll"

 Rapture wrote:
The only possible permission for a model to re-roll the scatter dice come from the "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" 'ability' language. If Master Crafted qualifies as an 'ability,' then it allows the scatter dice to be re-rolled. As the re-rolling of the scatter dice does not qualify as a re-roll of a To Hit roll, then the model's once per turn ability to re-roll a to hit a To Hit roll would not be spent upon re-rolling the scatter dice.

Agreed.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, in theory it could be used multiple times for Blasts and rerolls - but that's irrelevant because using it means you break the MC rule.

Well that is the issue here. "Yes, in theory" = "By RaW" for "Blasts Weapons and Rerolls". Breaking the MC is then exactly why Side B is no better than Side A, both are at about the same level.

rnlmeat0666 wrote:
I havn't read all 6 pages of comments, this is directly aimed to the OP.

You cannot re-roll to hit blast weapons with the Preferred Enemy rule because there is no numerical number that would result of a "to-hit roll" from a 1-6. Its a directional scatter dice with the addition of two d6 to determine distance that it scatters.

Please read "Blasts Weapons and Rerolls" on the Blasts Special Rule page carefully. It only asks for "the ability to re-roll" a To-Hit roll, meaning that the blast weapon does not need a To Hit roll. If the conditions then apply is what is up for debate...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Black - en-blue-en the "per turn" part. That is the other conditional - just written differently to the others. It has the same effect as saying "if you use this ability once, you may reroll a to-hit roll"

What you want is this:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Master Crafted wrote:"allow the bearer to re-roll one failed roll To Hit per turn"

And unfortunately i cannot agree with that. You cannot split up a rule as such and only use half of it, it is inconsistent.

You cannot use PE and only use the "failed" or "of 1", it is both, and both need to happen, or they don't.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Your condescending and rude tone aside, if we are misunderstanding your viewpoint and drawing incorrect assumptions, logic would tell you to re word your argument so it can b properly understood no?

Youre coming in late to a thread where this difference was already explained - page 1, from memory. There are conditions UPON the reroll, and conditions to OBTAIN the reroll. PE places a condition upon the reroll, and has another condition to obtain the reroll - the former is "to hit of a 1" and the second is "when firing against your PE"

Master Crafted has 2 conditions as well - you can use the reroll once per turn, and you can reroll failed to hit. Note that the same form as above applies to help you categorise which is which.

Interesting, so you draw the line at master crafted?

what happened to:

Played at two ToS which plays it as the rules are written; all that is required is an ability to Reroll, not how good a Reroll you have.

master crafted has the ability to reroll, ergo 'blast' allows it for all blasts. Because you're rerolling 2 or 3 scatter dice, not to hit rolls, so the once per turn condition should be just as irrelevant as needing to roll a 1 to get the ability to reroll for PE.

How is it being inconsistent?

I'm using both; you are allowed one reroll, so rerolling more than once is not allowed. You are allowed a reroll on failed to-hit roll. meaning you can reroll blast

Entirely consistent with:
You are allowed a reroll if you are targetting your PE (allowed one reroll) so trying to reroll when not hitting your PE is not allowed. You are allowed a reroll on failed to-hit roll (of a 1) meaning you can reroll blast.

DIfferent structure, same result - condition upon gaining the reroll ability, condition on the reroll ability itself. (how "good" a reroll it is)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
Your condescending and rude tone aside, if we are misunderstanding your viewpoint and drawing incorrect assumptions, logic would tell you to re word your argument so it can b properly understood no?

Youre coming in late to a thread where this difference was already explained - page 1, from memory. There are conditions UPON the reroll, and conditions to OBTAIN the reroll. PE places a condition upon the reroll, and has another condition to obtain the reroll - the former is "to hit of a 1" and the second is "when firing against your PE"

Master Crafted has 2 conditions as well - you can use the reroll once per turn, and you can reroll failed to hit. Note that the same form as above applies to help you categorise which is which.

Interesting, so you draw the line at master crafted?

what happened to:

Played at two ToS which plays it as the rules are written; all that is required is an ability to Reroll, not how good a Reroll you have.

master crafted has the ability to reroll, ergo 'blast' allows it for all blasts. Because you're rerolling 2 or 3 scatter dice, not to hit rolls, so the once per turn condition should be just as irrelevant as needing to roll a 1 to get the ability to reroll for PE.

ONly if you conflate an abiltiy of the reroll, with an abiltiy to have the reroll in the first place. I'm not, so I'm not "drawing the line" at anything - just beign consistent.

If you didnt conflate two concepts you would have an easier time understanding this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
How is it being inconsistent?

I'm using both; you are allowed one reroll, so rerolling more than once is not allowed. You are allowed a reroll on failed to-hit roll. meaning you can reroll blast

Entirely consistent with:
You are allowed a reroll if you are targetting your PE (allowed one reroll) so trying to reroll when not hitting your PE is not allowed. You are allowed a reroll on failed to-hit roll (of a 1) meaning you can reroll blast.

DIfferent structure, same result - condition upon gaining the reroll ability, condition on the reroll ability itself. (how "good" a reroll it is)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Master Crafted has 2 conditions as well - you can use the reroll once per turn, and you can reroll failed to hit. Note that the same form as above applies to help you categorise which is which.

Interesting, so you draw the line at master crafted?

what happened to:

Played at two ToS which plays it as the rules are written; all that is required is an ability to Reroll, not how good a Reroll you have.

master crafted has the ability to reroll, ergo 'blast' allows it for all blasts. Because you're rerolling 2 or 3 scatter dice, not to hit rolls, so the once per turn condition should be just as irrelevant as needing to roll a 1 to get the ability to reroll for PE.

ONly if you conflate an abiltiy of the reroll, with an abiltiy to have the reroll in the first place. I'm not, so I'm not "drawing the line" at anything - just beign consistent.

If you didnt conflate two concepts you would have an easier time understanding this.

When I brought up ammo runts and a once per game reroll you said:

Yes it has some edge cases where this goes a little wonky. Does not alter the factual rules.

you're criteria for rerolling blasts:

You don't Reroll to hit, so a condition based on a to hit roll can never be satisfied. Good job it never asks you to roll to gave , just the ability ....
2 different conditions, one is "how good a reroll", which the Blast weapons rule doesnt give two hoots about, and the other is whether you have that ability or not

master crafted
condition based on a to hit roll: once per turn.
it has the ability to reroll.

you're definitely not being consistent, if you were you'd say "yes master crafted can reroll all blast scatter shots" then claim it's just one of those weird edge cases.

Are you drifting away from side B, towards side A?

Stay strong, keep arguing for B. I'll need guys like you on my side after saturday when we can discuss how missing on scatter dice is not failing a reroll

Ah, youre mistaken - that was not direct reference to the ammo runts. I care less about ammo runts. I was talking about maledictions that force a reeroll resulting in a reroll to hit.

Again: youre conflating two concepts, I explained your error, and how there are two conditions, already. Dont misrepresent arguments, it isnt polite.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, in theory it could be used multiple times for Blasts and rerolls - but that's irrelevant because using it means you break the MC rule.

Well that is the issue here. "Yes, in theory" = "By RaW" for "Blasts Weapons and Rerolls". Breaking the MC is then exactly why Side B is no better than Side A, both are at about the same level.

Incorrect. It's absolutely consistent - it's possible as long as you break no other rules.
Rerolling twice with Master Crafted breaks a rule, so it's consistent to say it can only be used once.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, youre mistaken - that was not direct reference to the ammo runts. I care less about ammo runts. I was talking about maledictions that force a reeroll resulting in a reroll to hit.

Again: youre conflating two concepts, I explained your error, and how there are two conditions, already. Dont misrepresent arguments, it isnt polite.

It's one concept though, You're giving two answers to the same question.


MC allows a reroll, has a condition
PE allows a reroll, has a condition

You're saying one condition matters and the other doesn't. If the MC condition needs to be met, than so does PE and you need to first roll a 1 to hit, to get the reroll.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, youre mistaken - that was not direct reference to the ammo runts. I care less about ammo runts. I was talking about maledictions that force a reeroll resulting in a reroll to hit.

Again: youre conflating two concepts, I explained your error, and how there are two conditions, already. Dont misrepresent arguments, it isnt polite.

It's one concept though, You're giving two answers to the same question.


MC allows a reroll, has a condition
PE allows a reroll, has a condition

You're saying one condition matters and the other doesn't. If the MC condition needs to be met, than so does PE and you need to first roll a 1 to hit, to get the reroll.

MC allows a re-roll, has two conditions.
PE allows a re-roll, has two conditions.

One condition requires a To Hit roll, the other does not. The To Hit roll requirement does not matter, the other does.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, youre mistaken - that was not direct reference to the ammo runts. I care less about ammo runts. I was talking about maledictions that force a reeroll resulting in a reroll to hit.

Again: youre conflating two concepts, I explained your error, and how there are two conditions, already. Dont misrepresent arguments, it isnt polite.

It's one concept though, You're giving two answers to the same question.


MC allows a reroll, has a condition
PE allows a reroll, has a condition

You're saying one condition matters and the other doesn't. If the MC condition needs to be met, than so does PE and you need to first roll a 1 to hit, to get the reroll.

MC allows a re-roll, has two conditions.
PE allows a re-roll, has two conditions.

One condition requires a To Hit roll, the other does not. The To Hit roll requirement does not matter, the other does.

Not you as well.

PE only allows a reroll of a failed roll of 1 which you can never get with a blast, so PE does not have a reroll for blast weapons. Yet side B happily ignores this part while breaking the rule of needing a 1. NO 1, no ability to reroll.

MC has the ability to reroll one failed to hit per turn. which blast allow to reroll scatter, yet which side B wants to enforce it's condition. contradicting all of it's arguments for allowing PE.

The way you and NOS are wanting to restrict MC and allow PE shows the glaring flaw in your RAW interpretation.

You either meet the conditions or you don't, when you try to play both sides you are not arguing RAW and the both of you should mark your posts accordingly.

Unless you have some actual rules to support your two sided approach?

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, youre mistaken - that was not direct reference to the ammo runts. I care less about ammo runts. I was talking about maledictions that force a reeroll resulting in a reroll to hit.

Again: youre conflating two concepts, I explained your error, and how there are two conditions, already. Dont misrepresent arguments, it isnt polite.

It's one concept though, You're giving two answers to the same question.


MC allows a reroll, has a condition
PE allows a reroll, has a condition

You're saying one condition matters and the other doesn't. If the MC condition needs to be met, than so does PE and you need to first roll a 1 to hit, to get the reroll.

MC allows a re-roll, has two conditions.
PE allows a re-roll, has two conditions.

One condition requires a To Hit roll, the other does not. The To Hit roll requirement does not matter, the other does.

Not you as well.

PE only allows a reroll of a failed roll of 1 which you can never get with a blast, so PE does not have a reroll for blast weapons. Yet side B happily ignores this part while breaking the rule of needing a 1. NO 1, no ability to reroll.

Side B has correctly applied the rules, which require an ability. No a roll to hit. You remain ignorant of this. Your argument is refuted.

sirlynchmob wrote:MC has the ability to reroll one failed to hit per turn. which blast allow to reroll scatter, yet which side B wants to enforce it's condition. contradicting all of it's arguments for allowing PE.

MC, like PE, has two conditions. Yuo appear to be unable to distinguish these, despite the handy colour coding given in prior posts. Try again.

sirlynchmob wrote:The way you and NOS are wanting to restrict MC and allow PE shows the glaring flaw in your RAW interpretation.

Only if you a) ignore rules and b) cant work out both of the conditions in MC, despite it being pointed out, colour coded even. Your refusal to accept facts - that MC has TWO conditions, and not one - isnt our problem but yours.

sirlynchmob wrote:You either meet the conditions or you don't, when you try to play both sides you are not arguing RAW and the both of you should mark your posts accordingly.

Unless you have some actual rules to support your two sided approach?

The rules, unliek your ignoring of rules approach, have been givne. Back on ignore, as apparently you cant help but wilfully misconstrue others, and cannot argue actual rules. Your entire argument is "HYWPI", proven.

you're projecting again NOS, despite your opinion otherwise, you don't have the ability if you don't roll to hit. so play it however you like, I'll play by the rules.

I have rules and a consistent application of them, you do not as highly evident and demonstrated in this thread.

sirlynchmob wrote:
PE only allows a reroll of a failed roll of 1 which you can never get with a blast, so PE does not have a reroll for blast weapons. Yet side B happily ignores this part while breaking the rule of needing a 1. NO 1, no ability to reroll.

MC has the ability to reroll one failed to hit per turn. which blast allow to reroll scatter, yet which side B wants to enforce it's condition. contradicting all of it's arguments for allowing PE.

PE grants a re-roll if you a) are firing at your preferred nemy, and b) roll a 1 To Hit.
MC grants a re-roll if you a) have not used the MC re-roll this turn, and b) fail a roll To Hit.

If you do not roll To Hit, you can neither roll a 1 (meaning PE doesn't work), nor can you fail a To Hit roll (meaning MC doesn't work).

Why do you allow failed To Hit rolls to work, but not failed To Hit rolls of 1? Neither one can possibly occur if you do not roll To Hit.

sirlynchmob wrote:
you're projecting again NOS, despite your opinion otherwise, you don't have the ability if you don't roll to hit. so play it however you like, I'll play by the rules.

I have rules and a consistent application of them, you do not as highly evident and demonstrated in this thread.

One last time: rules were shown disproving your viewpoint. Mark your posts HYPWI, as you still cannot show any actual rules, just assertions and fallacies.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
PE only allows a reroll of a failed roll of 1 which you can never get with a blast, so PE does not have a reroll for blast weapons. Yet side B happily ignores this part while breaking the rule of needing a 1. NO 1, no ability to reroll.

MC has the ability to reroll one failed to hit per turn. which blast allow to reroll scatter, yet which side B wants to enforce it's condition. contradicting all of it's arguments for allowing PE.

PE grants a re-roll if you a) are firing at your preferred nemy, and b) roll a 1 To Hit.
MC grants a re-roll if you a) have not used the MC re-roll this turn, and b) fail a roll To Hit.

If you do not roll To Hit, you can neither roll a 1 (meaning PE doesn't work), nor can you fail a To Hit roll (meaning MC doesn't work).

Why do you allow failed To Hit rolls to work, but not failed To Hit rolls of 1? Neither one can possibly occur if you do not roll To Hit.

As MC was faq'd previously to include blasts, I'd only allow it as a act of kindness til the new BRB faq comes out. But just RAW no it should not reroll blasts either.

MC has the ability to reroll.
PE does not, unless a roll of 1 is rolled on it's to hit roll. Which can not be done, so it does not have the ability to reroll.
It's a subtle yet significant difference.

Why do you rule two different ways for PE & MC?

does MC have a reroll? yes, does it lose it's ability to reroll after it uses it? no

the original test for blasts was simple "do you have the ability to reroll?" I find it interesting how many people are drifting away from that towards the middle ground.

if you reroll the scatter dice, did you reroll a roll to hit? no, ergo the once a turn never comes into play even after rerolling 3 scatter dice, you have not yet rerolled a single 'roll to hit'.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
PE only allows a reroll of a failed roll of 1 which you can never get with a blast, so PE does not have a reroll for blast weapons. Yet side B happily ignores this part while breaking the rule of needing a 1. NO 1, no ability to reroll.

MC has the ability to reroll one failed to hit per turn. which blast allow to reroll scatter, yet which side B wants to enforce it's condition. contradicting all of it's arguments for allowing PE.

PE grants a re-roll if you a) are firing at your preferred nemy, and b) roll a 1 To Hit.
MC grants a re-roll if you a) have not used the MC re-roll this turn, and b) fail a roll To Hit.

If you do not roll To Hit, you can neither roll a 1 (meaning PE doesn't work), nor can you fail a To Hit roll (meaning MC doesn't work).

Why do you allow failed To Hit rolls to work, but not failed To Hit rolls of 1? Neither one can possibly occur if you do not roll To Hit.

As MC was faq'd previously to include blasts, I'd only allow it as a act of kindness til the new BRB faq comes out. But just RAW no it should not reroll blasts either.

MC has the ability to reroll.
PE does not, unless a roll of 1 is rolled on it's to hit roll. Which can not be done, so it does not have the ability to reroll.
It's a subtle yet significant difference.

Why do you rule two different ways for PE & MC?

does MC have a reroll? yes, does it lose it's ability to reroll after it uses it? no

the original test for blasts was simple "do you have the ability to reroll?" I find it interesting how many people are drifting away from that towards the middle ground.

if you reroll the scatter dice, did you reroll a roll to hit? no, ergo the once a turn never comes into play even after rerolling 3 scatter dice, you have not yet rerolled a single 'roll to hit'.

nos, rigeld, I et al are being consistent. As far as we're concerned, the result on the To Hit roll does not matter. Any other conditions do. In other words, am I shooting at a Preferred Enemy? No - then no re-roll. Yes - then re-roll. Did I re-roll this turn with a Master-crafted weapon? Yes - then no re-roll. No - then re-roll.

And yes, an MC weapon loses it's reroll after using it once in a turn.

Or, more correctly, it's breaking a rule to reroll using MC after using it once. Exactly like it's breaking a rule if you reroll with no sources of rerolls.

This invention that MC allows infinite rerolls is a Strawman without any kind of rules support.

rigeld2 wrote:
And yes, an MC weapon loses it's reroll after using it once in a turn.

Or, more correctly, it's breaking a rule to reroll using MC after using it once. Exactly like it's breaking a rule if you reroll with no sources of rerolls.

This invention that MC allows infinite rerolls is a Strawman without any kind of rules support.

So you're saying rerolling scatter dice is rerolling a failed roll to hit?

Even though models with blast weapons do not roll to hit? your equating roll for scatter to equate to roll to hit?

I'd love to see your rules supporting that one.

If you and nos would stop ignoring the actual rules, and stop resorting to claiming logic fallacies we could settle this issue.

rigeld2 wrote:
And yes, an MC weapon loses it's reroll after using it once in a turn.

Or, more correctly, it's breaking a rule to reroll using MC after using it once. Exactly like it's breaking a rule if you reroll with no sources of rerolls.

This invention that MC allows infinite rerolls is a Strawman without any kind of rules support.

Its also an invention that you can use MC on a roll that can not roll a 1.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And yes, an MC weapon loses it's reroll after using it once in a turn.

Or, more correctly, it's breaking a rule to reroll using MC after using it once. Exactly like it's breaking a rule if you reroll with no sources of rerolls.

This invention that MC allows infinite rerolls is a Strawman without any kind of rules support.

Its also an invention that you can use MC on a roll that can not roll a 1.

Fortunately that's not what MC requires, eh?