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sirlynchmob wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
I like side B as it lets my buy one ammo runt and reroll my shock attack gun all game long at least for another couple weekd

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you only use the ammo grunt a limited number of times?
The :re-rolls and blasts" rules require you to actually use the re-roll in order to re-roll a blast.

Like nos said

all that is required is an ability to Reroll, not how good a Reroll you have.

the runt grants the SAG a reroll, yes it's usually only once per game, but the SAG has the ability to reroll so blasts allows it all game.

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."
You may only choose to re-roll with the ammo grunt once per game.

chanceafs wrote:I also never understood why the argument for side B doesn't extend to PE allowing to reroll blasts against everything no matter what the preferred enemy is. Cause the requirement is "rerolled failed to hits of 1 against PE." So if you can ignore the needing to roll a 1, why would you enforce the PE part since it's all contained in the same conditional on the sentence.

Because you cannot choose to re-roll with Preferred Enemy if you're not firing at your Preferred Enemy.

 PrinceRaven wrote:


"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."
You may only choose to re-roll with the ammo grunt once per game.

Not quite, the ammo runt has nothing to do with the ability it grants, it's just decoration.

"a model with an ammo runt is allowed to reroll one to hit roll for a shooting attack, once per game"

"if a model has the ability to reroll it's rolls to hits..."

there you have it, the SAG model has the ability to reroll. Side B allows it all game long.

go find the last thread, like I said it's a good read. I'd never play it that way, but I guess if that's the way GW is ruling it, and the wording doesn't change soon, I might as well.

Fine, you may only choose to re-roll with the model who has an ammo grunt once per game.
Either way, you can only choose to use this re-roll once, so there's no way you're getting re-rolls all game according to RAW.

The other problem that cropped up with option B is that it's any and all options to re-roll. Including the ones that are supposed to make your shooting less accurate like the old Objuration Mechanicum ("..., the target unit must re-roll To Hit and To Wound rolls of a 6.") If things like "to hit rolls of a 1" aren't taken as pre-conditions, then neither are "to hit rolls of a 6" and so curses make blast weapons more accurate.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Fine, you may only choose to re-roll with the model who has an ammo grunt once per game.
Either way, you can only choose to use this re-roll once, so there's no way you're getting re-rolls all game according to RAW.

That's Side A thinking. If as NOS says, side B is the way GW is going, (all that is required is an ability to Reroll) then my model bought a runt, and has the ability to reroll and therefore blasts allows it to reroll for the entire game.

RAW, does my model have the ability to reroll? yes.
For another couple weeks at least

I'm solidly on side B.
Please explain how you are able to choose to re-roll to hit multiple times (in order to fulfil the requirements of the "re-rolls and blasts" rule) with a once per game ability.

Chrysis wrote:
The other problem that cropped up with option B is that it's any and all options to re-roll. Including the ones that are supposed to make your shooting less accurate like the old Objuration Mechanicum ("..., the target unit must re-roll To Hit and To Wound rolls of a 6.") If things like "to hit rolls of a 1" aren't taken as pre-conditions, then neither are "to hit rolls of a 6" and so curses make blast weapons more accurate.

and the problem with Option A is that it required making up an entirelyt new rule to the one in the rulebook.

You do not have to have rerolled your to-hit; as the rule states, you must simply have the ability to.

The rule also doesnt state "have the ability to reroll all to-hit rolls" or any such conditional denoting how good a reroll you have; any reroll ability is sufficient.

Yes it has some edge cases where this goes a little wonky. Does not alter the factual rules.

 eluxir wrote:
I've searched up and down this forum looking for a previous thread and wasn't able to find anything...

Either way, can someone help me understand how the Preferred Enemy special rule is applied when rolling To Hit a blast weapon? Since you want lower rolls for scatter and Preferred Enemy specifically applies for rolls of 1, does it not apply to blast weapons? Any clarification would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you!

I call lies.

this comes up once a week at least.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'm solidly on side B.
Please explain how you are able to choose to re-roll to hit multiple times (in order to fulfil the requirements of the "re-rolls and blasts" rule) with a once per game ability.

Once per game you can re-roll a To Hit roll. Did you re-roll a to hit roll? No, you rerolled scatter for a blast. Therefore you didn't use what you needed to for the Once per game to matter. But since you have something that COULD allow you to re-roll to hit, by Side B's reasoning, you can re-roll blasts.

So you didn't choose to re-roll a to hit roll? Fine, then you can't re-roll the blast.
""If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6." "

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
The other problem that cropped up with option B is that it's any and all options to re-roll. Including the ones that are supposed to make your shooting less accurate like the old Objuration Mechanicum ("..., the target unit must re-roll To Hit and To Wound rolls of a 6.") If things like "to hit rolls of a 1" aren't taken as pre-conditions, then neither are "to hit rolls of a 6" and so curses make blast weapons more accurate.

and the problem with Option A is that it required making up an entirelyt new rule to the one in the rulebook.

You do not have to have rerolled your to-hit; as the rule states, you must simply have the ability to.

The rule also doesnt state "have the ability to reroll all to-hit rolls" or any such conditional denoting how good a reroll you have; any reroll ability is sufficient.

Yes it has some edge cases where this goes a little wonky. Does not alter the factual rules.

As Nos points out for Side B: you simply need the ability, and you get the re-roll, no matter what the conditions.
For ammo runts and Maledictions, the ability is there, so you get the re-roll. PE only give the ability when firing at your PE, so the ability itself is there a conditional.

I'm on Side A, and logically it works for me basing on Twin-Linked wording.
The conditionals are always there:
In order to "have" the re-roll, you must have rolled a 1, rolled a 6, missed your roll etc...
Twin-Linked is then very clear in it's wording of what is considered "A Miss" when firing Blast weapons.

Ergo we know exactly when the condition "miss" is met with blast weapons when using prescience etc.

Applying a Special Rule as a general rule for the game mechanics? Probably but i see no issue with it.

No, youre again conflating having a reroll available, with having the ability to reroll

There is no conditional here. Do you have, if you are firing a weapon that rolls to hit, access to a reroll of that to hit? Then, if you are instead firing a Blast weapon which does NOT roll to-hit, you instead can reroll scatter.

If you are on side A you are claiming only twinlinked works, and doing so by changing the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, youre again conflating having a reroll available, with having the ability to reroll

There is no conditional here. Do you have, if you are firing a weapon that rolls to hit, access to a reroll of that to hit? Then, if you are instead firing a Blast weapon which does NOT roll to-hit, you instead can reroll scatter.

If you are on side A you are claiming only twinlinked works, and doing so by changing the rules.

More along the lines of: I am claiming everything works like Twin-Linked.

And i go by the definition of ability: "possession of the means or skill to do something": I do not have the "ability" until i actually roll a 1, a miss, or a 2.
Before the dice is rolled on the table, i have certain special rules: Prescience, PE, Twin-linked. But i only ever have the ability to re-roll when that Special rules kicks in: when a miss or 1 is rolled. Whether that is a To Hit roll or a Template or a Blast weapon.

What does a mastercrafted flamer do now? - is that in a similar mess?

 BlackTalos wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, youre again conflating having a reroll available, with having the ability to reroll

There is no conditional here. Do you have, if you are firing a weapon that rolls to hit, access to a reroll of that to hit? Then, if you are instead firing a Blast weapon which does NOT roll to-hit, you instead can reroll scatter.

If you are on side A you are claiming only twinlinked works, and doing so by changing the rules.

More along the lines of: I am claiming everything works like Twin-Linked.

And i go by the definition of ability: "possession of the means or skill to do something": I do not have the "ability" until i actually roll a 1, a miss, or a 2.
Before the dice is rolled on the table, i have certain special rules: Prescience, PE, Twin-linked. But i only ever have the ability to re-roll when that Special rules kicks in: when a miss or 1 is rolled. Whether that is a To Hit roll or a Template or a Blast weapon.

Again, you possess the ability, and if you were rolling to-hit it would occur on a 1 or 2 (etc)

However you do not ever roll to hit, meaning that entire rule is, as you are claiming, useless. Twinlinked and blast already covers this explicitly, so you are claiming they wrote an entire rule - deliberately, as it did not appear in prior editions to 6th - to no use?

Is that your claim?

You are still also supplying a conditional of "how good" a reroll you need to have before you "have" the abilty. If you reroll all misses, or some, you still have the abilitiy to reroll, which is all that is required.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, you possess the ability, and if you were rolling to-hit it would occur on a 1 or 2 (etc)

However you do not ever roll to hit, meaning that entire rule is, as you are claiming, useless. Twinlinked and blast already covers this explicitly, so you are claiming they wrote an entire rule - deliberately, as it did not appear in prior editions to 6th - to no use?

Is that your claim?

I believe they wrote the paragraph "Blasts and Re-rolls" in order to have Blasts work *like Twin-Linked* for Special rules like Prescience and others that let you re-roll when you miss a shot.
These do not call out certain numbers like 1 or 6 on a dice, but simply a "missed shot" which, imo the Special Rule: Twin-Link defines very clearly in the case of blasts.

If that paragraph did not exist, Prescience would have no effect on Blast weapons.

Why they did not simply remove that paragraph and list things like Prescience as "giving the units Twin-Linked" is above me however. But i'm sure there are technical reasons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are still also supplying a conditional of "how good" a reroll you need to have before you "have" the abilty. If you reroll all misses, or some, you still have the abilitiy to reroll, which is all that is required.

The main difference between our views that i can see is this:

- You believe that you "have" a re-roll before you roll the dice on the table: Shred will allow you to roll ALL the dice you roll for that unit, in To Wound rolls, a second time.

- I believe that the RaW about re-rolls are for when a result is perceived: You just rolled a D6 - it lands on 1 - That roll was during a To Wound roll, against enemy infantry and does not meet "passing" requirement to inflict a Wound. That dice is now eligible, or "has the ability" to be re-rolled.

In essence, i do not think units with Shred, Prescience or PE have a re-roll of any kind. They just follow special rules that, upon rolling a dice with conditions, will give you the ability to re-roll that dice.
The condition of Rolling a 1 is the same as the condition that you must roll on the table and not the floor. Or the condition that it must be a To Hit roll or an armour save.

The thing is, for Prescience to allow you to re-roll blasts, Preferred Enemy must as well, as both are conditional upon you rolling certain numbers on the to hit roll.

Blacktalos - Prescience on a BS4 model requires different numbers to be rolled for you to get the reroll than on an BS2 model. Again, you are claiming that "all failed to hit" is a better type of reroll than "all failed to hit of 1", when on a BS5 model *they are exactly the same" in effect.

My claim is that if you are told "I can reroll my to-hit rolls [of 1]" it is exactly the same as far as the rule is concerned as "I can reroll my tohit rolls [of 12, 23, and 3s]" because the rule only cares about the ability to reroll, and nothing about the actual reroll itself.

You have the ability to reroll your dice on a to-hit roll or you do not. That is ALL that the rule requires.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I'm solidly on side B.
Please explain how you are able to choose to re-roll to hit multiple times (in order to fulfil the requirements of the "re-rolls and blasts" rule) with a once per game ability.

Maybe you'll listen to NOS

You do not have to have rerolled your to-hit; as the rule states, you must simply have the ability to.

The rule also doesnt state "have the ability to reroll all to-hit rolls" or any such conditional denoting how good a reroll you have; any reroll ability is sufficient.

Yes it has some edge cases where this goes a little wonky. Does not alter the factual rules.

the SAG has the ability to
the conditions are irrelevant.
Where he admits it goes a bit wonky is for ammo runts.

Blasts allows the reroll of the scatter dice for any model with a reroll. no to hit rolls were rerolled, not even once.

chanceafs wrote:
I also never understood why the argument for side B doesn't extend to PE allowing to reroll blasts against everything no matter what the preferred enemy is. Cause the requirement is "rerolled failed to hits of 1 against PE." So if you can ignore the needing to roll a 1, why would you enforce the PE part since it's all contained in the same conditional on the sentence.

If you're not firing at your PE do you have a reroll available? No? Okay then.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blacktalos - Prescience on a BS4 model requires different numbers to be rolled for you to get the reroll than on an BS2 model. Again, you are claiming that "all failed to hit" is a better type of reroll than "all failed to hit of 1", when on a BS5 model *they are exactly the same" in effect.

My claim is that if you are told "I can reroll my to-hit rolls [of 1]" it is exactly the same as far as the rule is concerned as "I can reroll my tohit rolls [of 12, 23, and 3s]" because the rule only cares about the ability to reroll, and nothing about the actual reroll itself.

You have the ability to reroll your dice on a to-hit roll or you do not. That is ALL that the rule requires.

Do not worry, i fully understand Side B and how the interpretation works, but imo it assumes that you "have" the re-roll before you even throw the dice.
HIWPI is exactly that, you have the re-roll so you immediately pick-up and throw the "failed" dice.

But discussing RaW, a model with BS5 and Prescience is very different to a model with BS2 and PE.

Both get to re-roll a 1 with a standard weapon, but on a Blast weapon the mechanics would be very different. Even going by side B, both would re-roll but the model with PE would still only scatter -2" which is always different to -5". That simple difference is a logical argument that they are not the same thing, even if they seem that way.


To kind of close up because the discussion will never lead anywhere as it did in the many other threads:

Both Sides A and Side B, as i see them are correct by RaW.
Side A imposes all the conditionals that are required in order to "get" the re-roll, but then does not allow anything apart from Twin-Linked. Unless, as I do, you apply what TL defines as a "miss" for Blast the rest of the book
Side B is Occam's razor. However it also means that units afflicted with "reroll 6s" due to malediction can re-roll their blast weapons by choice. An inherent fault that most will simply "not play".

As I said, edge cases are wonky.

While a bs2 and bs5 model are different, they both have exactly the same "degree" of Reroll available to them. And we're only discussing rerolls, not how far something scatters.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Both get to re-roll a 1 with a standard weapon, but on a Blast weapon the mechanics would be very different. Even going by side B, both would re-roll but the model with PE would still only scatter -2" which is always different to -5". That simple difference is a logical argument that they are not the same thing, even if they seem that way.

Except when dealing with Indirect Fire Barrages.

rigeld2 wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
I also never understood why the argument for side B doesn't extend to PE allowing to reroll blasts against everything no matter what the preferred enemy is. Cause the requirement is "rerolled failed to hits of 1 against PE." So if you can ignore the needing to roll a 1, why would you enforce the PE part since it's all contained in the same conditional on the sentence.

If you're not firing at your PE do you have a reroll available? No? Okay then.

Except the requirement to need to be shooting at your PE is in the same clause of the same sentence as needing to roll a 1 to Hit... so how do you justify ignoring one part of that sentence while enforcing another. They are part of the same conditional.

"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy."

Green = Who benefits from this special rule
Red = effect of the special rule
Blue = Condition of the special rule that must be fulfilled to activate the effect.

If you are not firing at your Preferred Enemy, you do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls, and thus can not fulfil the requirements of the "re-rolls and blasts" rule.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy."

Green = Who benefits from this special rule
Red = effect of the special rule
Blue = Condition of the special rule that must be fulfilled to activate the effect.

If you are not firing at your Preferred Enemy, you do not have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls, and thus can not fulfil the requirements of the "re-rolls and blasts" rule.

And if there were any punctuation, or clues from the text to support a distinction between blue and red that would be acceptable. But there is not. From the way that sentence is contructed, you don't even look to see if you are shooting at your preferred enemy until after a 1 has been rolled. And as stated above, all that matters for blasts is that you have the ability to re-roll a To Hit roll, regardless of ANY conditions put on that re-roll. Claiming that you get to ignore one condition but enforce the other is quite simply hypocritical.

The word "if" is the textual clue.
X if Y = X is the effect, Y is the condition.

The only "conditions" ignored by Re-rolls and Blasts rules are the number you roll on the to-hit dice.

but the If you are referring to is itself predicated on a To Hit or To Wound roll of 1. If you don't roll 1, there is no reason to check if you are shooting at your preferred enemy, if you never roll a 1. Thus if you are granted permission to skip the To Hit conditional, there is no reason to check the other condition.

If the special rule, states prior to the roll that you only gain the benefits of the rule if targeting a PE, then that would be a different story. But it does not, it only adds that conditional after a "to Hit" roll. So no 'To Hit' Roll, no check for PE.

Of course there's a reason to check, the Re-rolls and Blasts rules.
Do you have the ability to re-roll to hit?
Hmm, let me check. Oh, I've got Preferred Enemy, since I'm firing at my preferred enemy I do have the ability to re-roll to hit. I shall choose to do so, allowing me to re-roll the scatter die and 2d6.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Of course there's a reason to check, the Re-rolls and Blasts rules.
Do you have the ability to re-roll to hit?
Hmm, let me check. Oh, I've got Preferred Enemy, since I'm firing at my preferred enemy I do have the ability to re-roll to hit. I shall choose to do so, allowing me to re-roll the scatter die and 2d6.

Do you have the ability to re-roll to hit?
Hmm, let me check. I've got Earth Caste array, since (certain conditions are met) I do have the ability to re-roll to hit. I shall choose to do so, allowing me to re-roll the scatter die and 2d6.
Hmm, let me check. I've got Prescience, since (certain conditions are met) I do have the ability to re-roll to hit. I shall choose to do so, allowing me to re-roll the scatter die and 2d6.
Hmm, let me check. Oh, I've got Preferred Enemy, since (certain conditions are met) I do have the ability to re-roll to hit. I shall choose to do so, allowing me to re-roll the scatter die and 2d6.


Either you check those conditions... which in all 3 cases require a To Hit roll, and thus can't be checked, or you don't.