Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've searched up and down this forum looking for a previous thread and wasn't able to find anything...

Either way, can someone help me understand how the Preferred Enemy special rule is applied when rolling To Hit a blast weapon? Since you want lower rolls for scatter and Preferred Enemy specifically applies for rolls of 1, does it not apply to blast weapons? Any clarification would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you!

This is one of the longest debated subjects on this Forum, as it has remained problematic over a great deal of Editions:
I am interested in a strange third option, and even that don't fix all the unusual scenario's, so I will allow the two main voices on this matter to make this another 12 page Thread.

Side A: You must roll a 1 to get the re-roll from Preferred Enemy. Since you do not roll To Hit you cannot roll a 1 and therefore cannot re-roll the scatter.

Side B: The rules only state you must be able to re-roll To Hit. Since Preferred Enemy grants a re-roll, you can re-roll the scatter. If you enforce the need for a 1, you must also enforce the need for a failed To Hit roll for all abilities to be able to re-roll scatters, meaning that only Twin-linked works.

Repeat until Mod locks.

 Happyjew wrote:
Side A: You must roll a 1 to get the re-roll from Preferred Enemy. Since you do not roll To Hit you cannot roll a 1 and therefore cannot re-roll the scatter.

Side B: The rules only state you must be able to re-roll To Hit. Since Preferred Enemy grants a re-roll, you can re-roll the scatter. If you enforce the need for a 1, you must also enforce the need for a failed To Hit roll for all abilities to be able to re-roll scatters, meaning that only Twin-linked works.

Repeat until Mod locks.

This is a adequate summary of both sides.

 Happyjew wrote:
Side A: You must roll a 1 to get the re-roll from Preferred Enemy. Since you do not roll To Hit you cannot roll a 1 and therefore cannot re-roll the scatter.

Side B: The rules only state you must be able to re-roll To Hit. Since Preferred Enemy grants a re-roll, you can re-roll the scatter. If you enforce the need for a 1, you must also enforce the need for a failed To Hit roll for all abilities to be able to re-roll scatters, meaning that only Twin-linked works.

Thanks for getting me up to speed. Next time I'll do a google search for previous threads. Once I did that a bunch of the older debates popped up.

Is the wording any different between editions? Can we glean any clarity there?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Is the wording any different between editions? Can we glean any clarity there?

Lets just leave this as a well argued topic.

S'funny, with the edition change I was going to post a thread and see if there had been any shift in opinions on this, actually. With this thread up it seems kind of redundant. If anything though, an edition change seems like the time we actually should rehash the topic. It's completely possible that there is a rule in the book somewhere that might provide a little bit of insight on this one.

Well, the first line in the Blast special rule states they "do not roll to hit" and PE specifies that you re-roll to hit and to wound.

Seems pretty clear cut that if you don't do something in the first place, you can't do it again.

I'm new to the debate though, so I hope this doesn't open too many old wounds!

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, the first line in the Blast special rule states they "do not roll to hit" and PE specifies that you re-roll to hit and to wound.

Seems pretty clear cut that if you don't do something in the first place, you can't do it again.

I'm new to the debate though, so I hope this doesn't open too many old wounds!

The bone of contention comes when you look at the 'blasts and rerolls' section. If you have the ability to reroll your hits, you can reroll the scatter dice for a blast. The old argument hinged on whether the conditional rider attached to PE (only 1's) is irrelevant, or if it invalidates the ability to reroll scatter.

Ah, gotcha.

Yep, reading in a little further, the situation remains as fethed as ever.

Well done GW!

 Happyjew wrote:
Side A: You must roll a 1 to get the re-roll from Preferred Enemy. Since you do not roll To Hit you cannot roll a 1 and therefore cannot re-roll the scatter.

Side B: The rules only state you must be able to re-roll To Hit. Since Preferred Enemy grants a re-roll, you can re-roll the scatter. If you enforce the need for a 1, you must also enforce the need for a failed To Hit roll for all abilities to be able to re-roll scatters, meaning that only Twin-linked works.

Repeat until Mod locks.

I like side B as it lets my buy one ammo runt and reroll my shock attack gun all game long at least for another couple weekd

 Jimsolo wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Well, the first line in the Blast special rule states they "do not roll to hit" and PE specifies that you re-roll to hit and to wound.

Seems pretty clear cut that if you don't do something in the first place, you can't do it again.

I'm new to the debate though, so I hope this doesn't open too many old wounds!

The bone of contention comes when you look at the 'blasts and rerolls' section. If you have the ability to reroll your hits, you can reroll the scatter dice for a blast. The old argument hinged on whether the conditional rider attached to PE (only 1's) is irrelevant, or if it invalidates the ability to reroll scatter.

I was reading it the same way as you azreal, until Jimsolo pointed out that detail. Now I'm back on the fence. Is an extra sentence of clarification from GW too much to ask?! Don't understand how this hasn't been addressed over the course of multiple editions. I've never witnessed an official GW sanctioned tournament but I would think that this would come up. Is there any other way to reach out and request some form of resolution?

Played at two ToS which plays it as the rules are written; all that is required is an ability to Reroll, not how good a Reroll you have.

 Happyjew wrote:
Side A: You must roll a 1 to get the re-roll from Preferred Enemy. Since you do not roll To Hit you cannot roll a 1 and therefore cannot re-roll the scatter.

Side B: The rules only state you must be able to re-roll To Hit. Since Preferred Enemy grants a re-roll, you can re-roll the scatter. If you enforce the need for a 1, you must also enforce the need for a failed To Hit roll for all abilities to be able to re-roll scatters, meaning that only Twin-linked works.

Repeat until Mod locks.

Yeah i'm on the A side here, and unfortunately the new Rules do not make any changes to the debate.

I would note though, that Twin-Linked has changed in wording and reinforces my position a bit, but not enough to have a valid argument that "It can't be B"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Played at two ToS which plays it as the rules are written; all that is required is an ability to Reroll, not how good a Reroll you have.

are those tournaments sponsored/sanctioned by GW?

 Happyjew wrote:
Side A: You must roll a 1 to get the re-roll from Preferred Enemy. Since you do not roll To Hit you cannot roll a 1 and therefore cannot re-roll the scatter.

Side B: The rules only state you must be able to re-roll To Hit. Since Preferred Enemy grants a re-roll, you can re-roll the scatter. If you enforce the need for a 1, you must also enforce the need for a failed To Hit roll for all abilities to be able to re-roll scatters, meaning that only Twin-linked works.

Repeat until Mod locks.

Me and my friends are with B.

 eluxir wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Played at two ToS which plays it as the rules are written; all that is required is an ability to Reroll, not how good a Reroll you have.

are those tournaments sponsored/sanctioned by GW?

Throne of skulls is run by GW staff at WHW in Nottingham. Yes, absolutely a "GW" tournament.

Wouldn't this make Twin-linked Flamers unable to reroll?

If so, why bother giving them Twin-linked in the first place?

They Reroll to wound instead.

Ahh, that makes sense then.

So couldn't the OP guy simply reroll to wound since he never rolls to hit?

Twin-linked have its own rules regarding templates and blasts. It takes precedence over Preferred Enemy because it's more specific

 Vector Strike wrote:
Twin-linked have its own rules regarding templates and blasts. It takes precedence over Preferred Enemy because it's more specific

Good to know, thank you

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 eluxir wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Played at two ToS which plays it as the rules are written; all that is required is an ability to Reroll, not how good a Reroll you have.

are those tournaments sponsored/sanctioned by GW?

Throne of skulls is run by GW staff at WHW in Nottingham. Yes, absolutely a "GW" tournament.

So, not to muddy the waters, but what's the consensus on Pask, Old Grudges, and Executioner Russes?

Would his unit be able to re-roll their Gets Hot! results from shooting the plasma cannons as a result of gaining Preferred Enemy (Codex)?

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:
So, not to muddy the waters, but what's the consensus on Pask, Old Grudges, and Executioner Russes?

Would his unit be able to re-roll their Gets Hot! results from shooting the plasma cannons as a result of gaining Preferred Enemy (Codex)?

DoW

You still either have choice A or choice B. There is no consensus on this. Pick whichever until GW Faqs it.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Side A: You must roll a 1 to get the re-roll from Preferred Enemy. Since you do not roll To Hit you cannot roll a 1 and therefore cannot re-roll the scatter.

Side B: The rules only state you must be able to re-roll To Hit. Since Preferred Enemy grants a re-roll, you can re-roll the scatter. If you enforce the need for a 1, you must also enforce the need for a failed To Hit roll for all abilities to be able to re-roll scatters, meaning that only Twin-linked works.

Repeat until Mod locks.

I like side B as it lets my buy one ammo runt and reroll my shock attack gun all game long at least for another couple weekd

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you only use the ammo grunt a limited number of times?
The :re-rolls and blasts" rules require you to actually use the re-roll in order to re-roll a blast.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Side A: You must roll a 1 to get the re-roll from Preferred Enemy. Since you do not roll To Hit you cannot roll a 1 and therefore cannot re-roll the scatter.

Side B: The rules only state you must be able to re-roll To Hit. Since Preferred Enemy grants a re-roll, you can re-roll the scatter. If you enforce the need for a 1, you must also enforce the need for a failed To Hit roll for all abilities to be able to re-roll scatters, meaning that only Twin-linked works.

Repeat until Mod locks.

I like side B as it lets my buy one ammo runt and reroll my shock attack gun all game long at least for another couple weekd

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't you only use the ammo grunt a limited number of times?
The :re-rolls and blasts" rules require you to actually use the re-roll in order to re-roll a blast.

Like nos said

all that is required is an ability to Reroll, not how good a Reroll you have.

the runt grants the SAG a reroll, yes it's usually only once per game, but the SAG has the ability to reroll so blasts allows it all game.

I also never understood why the argument for side B doesn't extend to PE allowing to reroll blasts against everything no matter what the preferred enemy is. Cause the requirement is "rerolled failed to hits of 1 against PE." So if you can ignore the needing to roll a 1, why would you enforce the PE part since it's all contained in the same conditional on the sentence.

chanceafs wrote:
I also never understood why the argument for side B doesn't extend to PE allowing to reroll blasts against everything no matter what the preferred enemy is. Cause the requirement is "rerolled failed to hits of 1 against PE." So if you can ignore the needing to roll a 1, why would you enforce the PE part since it's all contained in the same conditional on the sentence.

They did, you should look for the last few threads on the subject. quite a fun read. That's when I jumped in with the ammo runts and they had to agree that yes a ammo runt that is supposed to be used once per game did, by their reasoning, let me reroll all game long.