Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Paradigm wrote:
One, I never said it was common to all wargames. I am familiar with others that do not have half the balance issues that 40k does, but that's not what's being discussed here, There's no point arguing the merits of Maifaux or Warmachine or Deadzone, no matter how good those games are, if 40k is what the people here are discussing.

It's absolutely the point to include them because many of the arguments put against those complaining about the rules and balance are easily refuted by the existence of games that do have better rules and balance and yet remain good games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:
So you think that if there were no consequence, people would happily beat someone up to win at 40k? There's honestly nothing I can say to that.

That's clearly not the point they were making and you know it. The point they were making is that people strive to win at all levels of football. I can (just about) remember playing football as a little kid (under ten) and despite our age, we were all trying our best to get that ball in the opponent's net. If you removed those goals and told us to just run around kicking a ball at each other I can guarantee it would not be as much fun. And that only became more pronounced as we get older. Most of us here are older aren't we? It's been a few years since I've played an actual football match now, but I play squash and I can't imagine walking onto the court and just hitting the ball to each other a bit would be nearly as much fun as both of us trying to slaughter each other on the court which is what we actually do.

As has been explained countless times and ignored just as many, nobody is saying winning is the point. Trying to win is the point. It's fun. Or at least it is in a game where it's balanced so you get a reasonable fight, not just a walk over for one party.

morgoth wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:


Not if the rules and codices were more balanced

I'm not attacking you just can't aggree and I think most people will not either. IMHO

That would be horribly boring.
Eldar are wonderful for being table or be tabled, other armies are about resilience, others about other things still, that's what makes multiple different armies fun.

Just to quickly skip through the same points I've made a dozen times already to people who don't understand what a balanced game is:

Balance does not equal homogeneity. It increases variety by reducing "auto include" and "like X only strictly worse" choices.

Balance does not mean different armies cannot have different strengths. It means those strengths interact with each other in interesting ways without their being a clear Best build.

Balance does not mean everything is made bland in the name of perfect equality. It means that though there may be a best choice, it's by as narrow a margin as possible.

Balance does not mean removing all elements of chance from the game. It means being careful about the influence chance has on the game so you won't win or lose on a single early dice roll.

 knas ser wrote:
As has been explained countless times and ignored just as many, nobody is saying winning is the point. Trying to win is the point. It's fun. Or at least it is in a game where it's balanced so you get a reasonable fight, not just a walk over for one party.

Thanks for making my point, only better and in far fewer words.

I'm starting to wonder if there's something genetic that makes people think balanced means "sameness." Making a penitent engine 50 pts instead of 80 so someone might be tempted to take them, doesn't take all all the character out of the SOB army. It actually means you'd see a wider diversity of units.

That's clearly not the point they were making and you know it. The point they were making is that people strive to win at all levels of football. I can (just about) remember playing football as a little kid (under ten) and despite our age, we were all trying our best to get that ball in the opponent's net. If you removed those goals and told us to just run around kicking a ball at each other I can guarantee it would not be as much fun. And that only became more pronounced as we get older. Most of us here are older aren't we? It's been a few years since I've played an actual football match now, but I play squash and I can't imagine walking onto the court and just hitting the ball to each other a bit would be nearly as much fun as both of us trying to slaughter each other on the court which is what we actually do.

Plus the winner team gets ice cream and losers go home.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if there's something genetic that makes people think balanced means "sameness." Making a penitent engine 50 pts instead of 80 so someone might be tempted to take them, doesn't take all all the character out of the SOB army. It actually means you'd see a wider diversity of units.

Yep. Whilst adjusting points isn't always the best fix, it *is* generally the easiest way to quickly get something to be worth using again or no longer OP. For example, the reduction in points of marines makes them more balanced, but it also makes them more common compared to guard whereas they should be more effective per model. Would much rather have the quick and easy points adjustment than no adjustment though. The Vendetta nerf should *not* have needed to wait for a new codex, it should have been in a FAQ; "Hey guys, this unit is over performing, it now costs 170 and has 6 transport capacity. To keep overall power of guard codex the same, we have reduced the cost of certain Leman Russ variants and veteran upgrades." Bam, huge balance improvement making the game much more fun for both guard players and people playing against them.

When one argues against tabling your opponent, one argues against armies that are glass cannon types, because such armies can only table or be tabled unless they wind up in a glass cannon duel and both armies are reduced equally to less than 25% of their original size.

I want glass cannons because that suits my style of play: being more decisive, feeling the full force of the right or wrong strategic decision and dealing with it.

Everyone who is arguing against tabling is arguing against the existence of glass cannon armies and diversity, without doing anything to support balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yonan wrote:
The Vendetta nerf should *not* have needed to wait for a new codex, it should have been in a FAQ; "Hey guys, this unit is over performing, it now costs 170 and has 6 transport capacity. To keep overall power of guard codex the same, we have reduced the cost of certain Leman Russ variants and veteran upgrades." Bam, huge balance improvement making the game much more fun for both guard players and people playing against them.

This.

If you want any kind of balance for a game, you need balance updates every trimester at most.

WH40K rules should be up to date, free, and available online.

This would enable everyone to legally write and share smart, usable summaries instead of the fat or thin many-page rulebooks that you have to search through when you have a doubt.

Hell, it might even push GW to make their own usable summaries.

We'd still buy the paper codex because it's so beautiful.. or not, but at least they could be more about fluff and less about costing mistakes

 Elemental wrote:
Just to quickly skip through the same points I've made a dozen times already to people who don't understand what a balanced game is:

Balance does not equal homogeneity. It increases variety by reducing "auto include" and "like X only strictly worse" choices.

Balance does not mean different armies cannot have different strengths. It means those strengths interact with each other in interesting ways without their being a clear Best build.

Balance does not mean everything is made bland in the name of perfect equality. It means that though there may be a best choice, it's by as narrow a margin as possible.

Balance does not mean removing all elements of chance from the game. It means being careful about the influence chance has on the game so you won't win or lose on a single early dice roll.

 knas ser wrote:
As has been explained countless times and ignored just as many, nobody is saying winning is the point. Trying to win is the point. It's fun. Or at least it is in a game where it's balanced so you get a reasonable fight, not just a walk over for one party.

Thanks for making my point, only better and in far fewer words.

Agreed very good way of putting it you guys

I have stated this before many times and now twice in this thread.....I do not believe a game this complex can ever be 100% balanced, however I do believe it can be closer than its current state. Too where tactics, skill, and maybe bad/good luck is what decides how a game will be played out.

I not sure how that could ever be a boring game.

I never eluded to homogenity, blandness or removing chance.

I prefere games where my opponent has an equal or at least a reasonablely close to equal chance of winning with any army he/she may choose.

Morgoth Please tell us what is your glass cannon army is, maybe you are talking about a balanced gamed and we just don't get what you mean by glass cannon. The best Glass Cannon I know of is in fantasy, Skaven.

Considering he speaks of glass cannons.... horde slaanesh is rather glass cannonish bar a few selections. More likely though, he either plays Eldar (with minimal serpents and wraith) or, even more likely, Dark Eldar

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

Morgoth Please tell us what is your glass cannon army is, maybe you are talking about a balanced gamed and we just don't get what you mean by glass cannon. The best Glass Cannon I know of is in fantasy, Skaven.

Mostly Eldar Wave Serpents without WK or SeerStar.
It's fairly balanced and is a glass cannon.
If you catch me, I'm tabled, if you don't, you're tabled.
It only takes 500 points of assault troops to vaporize my 9 AV10-rear Skimmers (2000 points) in one turn , so any army has a very decent chance at winning if they play smart.

9 Serpents? Frankly, those have the range and mobility to blow away most units and keep evading the rest, and are far from weak with the AV12 and Shield if it's in defensive mode. I really don't see how that's a glass cannon, it's one of the top Eldar builds.

Glass cannons would be the likes of DE in Venoms or, to an extent, Orks in Trukks, where the units will wreck face if they hit you, but will also fold like a paper bag. Wave Serpents are leagues ahead of those AV10 open-topped deathtraps in terms of durability.

morgoth wrote:

 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

Morgoth Please tell us what is your glass cannon army is, maybe you are talking about a balanced gamed and we just don't get what you mean by glass cannon. The best Glass Cannon I know of is in fantasy, Skaven.

Mostly Eldar Wave Serpents without WK or SeerStar.
It's fairly balanced and is a glass cannon.
If you catch me, I'm tabled, if you don't, you're tabled.
It only takes 500 points of assault troops to vaporize my 9 AV10-rear Skimmers (2000 points) in one turn , so any army has a very decent chance at winning if they play smart.

I wouldn't quite call Wave Serpent Eldar glass cannons. They have AV12 which isn't really horrid (and better than most transports), has side values the same, has a shield making it only glancing, can use that shield for excessive dakka, and can still get a jink save that is mighty impressive. They lost a bit of tankiness but they are still very nasty.

Along with that, the assault troop argument is rather flawed. Unless you are positioning your units horridly, there really shouldn't be a way for 500 points of assault troops to vaporize 9 vehicles. The only real good assault units are largely either super mobile FMC which are largely expensive and got a big nerf if assault oriented, Maulerfiends might become a thing due to pen not being as painful (and even then you can only get a few of them for 500 points), stars which largely got nerfed, and beasts whom really are focused upon Flesh Hounds. Assault isn't really that good this edition and even when good 500 points simply couldn't vaporize 9 av10 skimmers unless you packed them in a neat little bunch and moved them in a way that made them chargeable. Keep in mind you are still a fast skimmer meaning 12" standard movement.

Seriously, want to play glass cannon? Play a Slaaneshi horde of daemons without maxing on Soulgrinders or MC. Want to play a glass cannon army that the codex is almost entirely devoted to being brutal but fragile? Play DE where your vehicles are AV10 all around and many of your models have at best a 5+ save and quite a few 6+ saves.

 Paradigm wrote:
9 Serpents? Frankly, those have the range and mobility to blow away most units and keep evading the rest, and are far from weak with the AV12 and Shield if it's in defensive mode. I really don't see how that's a glass cannon, it's one of the top Eldar builds.

Glass cannons would be the likes of DE in Venoms or, to an extent, Orks in Trukks, where the units will wreck face if they hit you, but will also fold like a paper bag. Wave Serpents are leagues ahead of those AV10 open-topped deathtraps in terms of durability.

It's not one of the top Eldar builds at all (7 WS 2 Fire Prisms).

First of all, WS have EITHER dakka OR survivability, never both.
It's odd that a unit would have to make that choice every shooting phase, but that's how it is.

Jink is NOT a good thing, it's a cover save that costs you 75% of your firepower. You will avoid it at almost any cost.

Most of all, a table is only 48" x 72", and 9 Eldar Skimmers take a lot of space, I can assure you a competent player can corner and butcher them.

If Serpents aren't that good, why are there about 3 threads a week complaining about them? Accept it, they're one of the best units in the codex, second only to Seerstars in terms of power level. You can try and justify it all you like that they're not good, but to call them a Glass Cannon unit is fallacy at best and a poor excuse at worst.

 StarTrotter wrote:

I wouldn't quite call Wave Serpent Eldar glass cannons. They have AV12 which isn't really horrid (and better than most transports), has side values the same, has a shield making it only glancing, can use that shield for excessive dakka, and can still get a jink save that is mighty impressive. They lost a bit of tankiness but they are still very nasty.

Along with that, the assault troop argument is rather flawed. Unless you are positioning your units horridly, there really shouldn't be a way for 500 points of assault troops to vaporize 9 vehicles. The only real good assault units are largely either super mobile FMC which are largely expensive and got a big nerf if assault oriented, Maulerfiends might become a thing due to pen not being as painful (and even then you can only get a few of them for 500 points), stars which largely got nerfed, and beasts whom really are focused upon Flesh Hounds. Assault isn't really that good this edition and even when good 500 points simply couldn't vaporize 9 av10 skimmers unless you packed them in a neat little bunch and moved them in a way that made them chargeable. Keep in mind you are still a fast skimmer meaning 12" standard movement.

Seriously, want to play glass cannon? Play a Slaaneshi horde of daemons without maxing on Soulgrinders or MC. Want to play a glass cannon army that the codex is almost entirely devoted to being brutal but fragile? Play DE where your vehicles are AV10 all around and many of your models have at best a 5+ save and quite a few 6+ saves.

1. A predator has AV13 and costs much less
2. A WS not firing its shield doesn't do much damage, plus you have to choose whether you keep that defense long before your enemy's shooting phase.
3. Jink is a 4+ cover save that will cost you 75% of your firepower for the next turn. It's not a blessing from the gods. Once it's been triggered, you should switch target and make another Serpent jink, not pointlessly waste all your firepower on that now cover-saved WS.
4. 13.5 Termagants will wreck one WS a turn, it doesn't even need to be an assault unit.
5. 12" standard movement gives you less dakka than 6", and unless you can run in a straight line on an infinite table without any terrain, it buys you at most one turn. You can corner a Mech in two turns and assault it in three, all on foot. In three turns, assuming you were second, I will have shot down about 1000 points of your army, +- 20%. If you were first ...
6. If 13.5 Termagaunts, which are not assault units and cost roughly 70 points can do it, I would expect 500 points of assault units can do it, especially since S5 already halves the number of necessary attacks even before vehicle damage rolls

I think that a whole army that can be destroyed by a few assault units qualifies as fragile, I don't think anyone discusses the max-dakka option on the Serpent as qualifying for cannon, so yes I think it's a glass cannon.

This is the first time I've heard wave serpents being called anything other than OP.

 Paradigm wrote:
If Serpents aren't that good, why are there about 3 threads a week complaining about them? Accept it, they're one of the best units in the codex, second only to Seerstars in terms of power level. You can try and justify it all you like that they're not good, but to call them a Glass Cannon unit is fallacy at best and a poor excuse at worst.

Because there are still players who would like their not-really-TAC anti-horde army to also beat a Mech, and who will never stop complaining until they can.
Every last one of these threads is full of logical fallacies, like:

60" Shield range : not counting it's limited to 36" Scatter Laser or 24" Shuriken Cannon for any relevant effect
Jink : not counting it reduces your firepower to 1/4th, except against flyers which are Snap Shot anyway
Serpent Shield 2+ glance : not counting it's incompatible with putting out a great amount of dakka
über movement: not counting it's near useless on a 48"x72" board @ 2000 points (my 9 Skimmers already take 14" x 14" unless they're all perfectly aligned with the table border)

It almost costs the same price as a Riptide and is nowhere near as resilient or dakkalicious, which the Riptide does both at the same time.
Hell, 4 WS cost more than a SeerStar and very clearly, nobody has ever chosen them over the star.
If it does not compare with OP units, then it's clearly not OP.

Most of the WS that are taken in competitive lists are there to transport Fire Dragons or the minimum DA unit, never to get as many WS on the table as possible.
Instead, people seem to prefer the Wraith Knight, and other units would be chosen before the WS if the point limit was higher (Warp Spiders come to mind).

morgoth wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

I wouldn't quite call Wave Serpent Eldar glass cannons. They have AV12 which isn't really horrid (and better than most transports), has side values the same, has a shield making it only glancing, can use that shield for excessive dakka, and can still get a jink save that is mighty impressive. They lost a bit of tankiness but they are still very nasty.

Along with that, the assault troop argument is rather flawed. Unless you are positioning your units horridly, there really shouldn't be a way for 500 points of assault troops to vaporize 9 vehicles. The only real good assault units are largely either super mobile FMC which are largely expensive and got a big nerf if assault oriented, Maulerfiends might become a thing due to pen not being as painful (and even then you can only get a few of them for 500 points), stars which largely got nerfed, and beasts whom really are focused upon Flesh Hounds. Assault isn't really that good this edition and even when good 500 points simply couldn't vaporize 9 av10 skimmers unless you packed them in a neat little bunch and moved them in a way that made them chargeable. Keep in mind you are still a fast skimmer meaning 12" standard movement.

Seriously, want to play glass cannon? Play a Slaaneshi horde of daemons without maxing on Soulgrinders or MC. Want to play a glass cannon army that the codex is almost entirely devoted to being brutal but fragile? Play DE where your vehicles are AV10 all around and many of your models have at best a 5+ save and quite a few 6+ saves.

1. A predator has AV13 and costs much less
2. A WS not firing its shield doesn't do much damage, plus you have to choose whether you keep that defense long before your enemy's shooting phase.
3. Jink is a 4+ cover save that will cost you 75% of your firepower for the next turn. It's not a blessing from the gods. Once it's been triggered, you should switch target and make another Serpent jink, not pointlessly waste all your firepower on that now cover-saved WS.
4. 13.5 Termagants will wreck one WS a turn, it doesn't even need to be an assault unit.
5. 12" standard movement gives you less dakka than 6", and unless you can run in a straight line on an infinite table without any terrain, it buys you at most one turn. You can corner a Mech in two turns and assault it in three, all on foot. In three turns, assuming you were second, I will have shot down about 1000 points of your army, +- 20%. If you were first ...
6. If 13.5 Termagaunts, which are not assault units and cost roughly 70 points can do it, I would expect 500 points of assault units can do it, especially since S5 already halves the number of necessary attacks even before vehicle damage rolls

I think that a whole army that can be destroyed by a few assault units qualifies as fragile, I don't think anyone discusses the max-dakka option on the Serpent as qualifying for cannon, so yes I think it's a glass cannon.

1. A predator isn't a waveserpent. The two are completely different beasts. The predator is built for anti-tank, not a transport that can be durable (and even more durable than a predator as well as being mobile as a fast skimmer (meaning standard movement is 12") with a deadly high shot gun with high strength and ignores cover cutting several high saves down to lower ones such as stealth back to a 5+ or 6+ save.
2. Yes you do, but you can also measure the risks based upon how close you are to the enemy, what weapons they have. Mostly it's best to just shoot it.
3. With an upgrade it can go to a 3+. Besides that, I'm not disagreeing that jink isn't godly like it was in 6th but the serpent was dogdly despite ignores cover being common in the meta.
4. And Abaddon will be killed by a Tau firewarrior sometimes. Thing is, these pitiful 13.5 still need to reach you. You are still moving 12" per turn whilst the gaunts are at best going to move 6" and charge. Even with fleet their average charge range of 7 is only really boosted to an 8 or a 9. The range of the Eldar gun is pretty godly to add to that and even if the transport gets sliced to death you still have units inside that'll shoot out.
5. Wait how does it give you less dakka? Fast Skimmers can still fire as normal. It's one of the main advantages of them. And you can't just corner a super mobile vehicle that can simply fly over your vehicles. Believe me, when I was new I tried that because it works on tanks. I then promptly watched the skimmer just fly over (shoulda known but was getting really panicky). Also first? Bloody hell mate it's still AV 12/12/10! That's pretty bloody good! It takes S6 guns to even hope to get lucky glances with only statistical chances on 7+. And keep in mind that it's even harder for vehicles to explode now coupled with the fact that even if your gun falls off your shield will still work.
6. Stop blabbering on about the terrors of assault. Assault hasn't been good since 3rd edition with only a few exceptions.

Also, you mention 24" and 36" as though that's a bad thing. It's still a super mobile vehicle and that is certainly no bad range.

Finally, you are using several fallacies as well. First of all, just because the serpent (which you forget can be spammed and makes up for having to take troops) might not be as broken as the Riptide doesn't make Serpents NOT op. That or the baledrake was a poor bad unit that wasn't that good ever sense Tau came out . Along with that, important tip, Stars got massively nerfed this edition.

Finally, you seem to forget that Eldar are one of the best codices out there. Serpents are good, in fact OP perhaps even with the changes to jink but it's not the only positives. Also you are ignoring the fact you can now have objective secured serpents

morgoth wrote:
1. A predator has AV13 and costs much less

And also doesn't have any transport capacity or the option to choose to ignore pens on a 2+, not to mention being able to TL its own shots.. The two are arguably comparable in firepower as well

2. A WS not firing its shield doesn't do much damage, plus you have to choose whether you keep that defense long before your enemy's shooting phase.

It still has more firepower than most transports with the Scatter Laser, and the more it fires the shield, the less there is to attack it anyway.

3. Jink is a 4+ cover save that will cost you 75% of your firepower for the next turn. It's not a blessing from the gods. Once it's been triggered, you should switch target and make another Serpent jink, not pointlessly waste all your firepower on that now cover-saved WS.

So you point out that the firepower isn't great, and then lament losing it. That's not adding up. Also, the fact a scatter laser TLs the shots means that the Serpent is actually one of the best things for mitigating this somewhat, and you also then lose nothing from moving at Cruising Speed.

4. 13.5 Termagants will wreck one WS a turn, it doesn't even need to be an assault unit.

And if you can't blow away those termagants in the time it takes them to reach you with 9 serpents and the contents, given the firepower and/or movement, then you deserve to be beaten or have terrible luck.

5. 12" standard movement gives you less dakka than 6", and unless you can run in a straight line on an infinite table without any terrain, it buys you at most one turn. You can corner a Mech in two turns and assault it in three, all on foot. In three turns, assuming you were second, I will have shot down about 1000 points of your army, +- 20%. If you were first ...

Of course, if you choose to castle in one place. Spread out, and that becomes far less viable. Not to mention that if you really need to get out, you've got a Flat Out move that can jump units and terrain. There's no excuse for Serpents being caught by foot armies.

6. If 13.5 Termagaunts, which are not assault units and cost roughly 70 points can do it, I would expect 500 points of assault units can do it, especially since S5 already halves the number of necessary attacks even before vehicle damage rolls

I think that a whole army that can be destroyed by a few assault units qualifies as fragile, I don't think anyone discusses the max-dakka option on the Serpent as qualifying for cannon, so yes I think it's a glass cannon.

I think you'll find that most shooting-based armies will fold to CC units, that's why you have the immense firepower to try and combat that before they hurt you.

morgoth wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
If Serpents aren't that good, why are there about 3 threads a week complaining about them? Accept it, they're one of the best units in the codex, second only to Seerstars in terms of power level. You can try and justify it all you like that they're not good, but to call them a Glass Cannon unit is fallacy at best and a poor excuse at worst.

Because there are still players who would like their not-really-TAC anti-horde army to also beat a Mech, and who will never stop complaining until they can.
Every last one of these threads is full of logical fallacies, like:

60" Shield range : not counting it's limited to 36" Scatter Laser or 24" Shuriken Cannon for any relevant effect

The 60" range that means you can fire with impunity from well beyond the range of most Anti-Tank weapons from T1. Even assuming below average rolls, your 7 WS (being generous, you said 9 earlier) can put out 21 S6 BS4 shots anywhere on the board. That's enough to seriously hurt a lot of things.

Jink : not counting it reduces your firepower to 1/4th, except against flyers which are Snap Shot anyway

See above, already answered

Serpent Shield 2+ glance : not counting it's incompatible with putting out a great amount of dakka

Again, see above.

über movement: not counting it's near useless on a 48"x72" board @ 2000 points (my 9 Skimmers already take 14" x 14" unless they're all perfectly aligned with the table border)

It's far from useless. If you think it is, that may well be why you're getting cornered so often. In malestrom missions, it's even better as you can grab VP without your opponent even being able to block you.

It almost costs the same price as a Riptide and is nowhere near as resilient or dakkalicious, which the Riptide does both at the same time.
Hell, 4 WS cost more than a SeerStar and very clearly, nobody has ever chosen them over the star.
If it does not compare with OP units, then it's clearly not OP.

But it does compare; it is far and away the best transport in the game, bar none, for its cost. It has the firepower of a main battle tank, the speed of a skimmer, and the transport capacity (and option to have Objective Secured) is just gravy.

Most of the WS that are taken in competitive lists are there to transport Fire Dragons or the minimum DA unit, never to get as many WS on the table as possible.
Instead, people seem to prefer the Wraith Knight, and other units would be chosen before the WS if the point limit was higher (Warp Spiders come to mind).

You've got this the wrong way around. The minimum squads of Avengers are taken to unlock more Serpents, which is why they stay camped inside them all the game. In 6th, they got out to score, in 7th they needn't even do that.

Do you see lists with 3 Wraithknights more often than 4+ Serpents, online and in real life? Because I doubt anyone else does.

 StarTrotter wrote:


1. A predator isn't a waveserpent. The two are completely different beasts. The predator is built for anti-tank, not a transport that can be durable (and even more durable than a predator as well as being mobile as a fast skimmer (meaning standard movement is 12") with a deadly high shot gun with high strength and ignores cover cutting several high saves down to lower ones such as stealth back to a 5+ or 6+ save.
2. Yes you do, but you can also measure the risks based upon how close you are to the enemy, what weapons they have. Mostly it's best to just shoot it.
3. With an upgrade it can go to a 3+. Besides that, I'm not disagreeing that jink isn't godly like it was in 6th but the serpent was dogdly despite ignores cover being common in the meta.
4. And Abaddon will be killed by a Tau firewarrior sometimes. Thing is, these pitiful 13.5 still need to reach you. You are still moving 12" per turn whilst the gaunts are at best going to move 6" and charge. Even with fleet their average charge range of 7 is only really boosted to an 8 or a 9. The range of the Eldar gun is pretty godly to add to that and even if the transport gets sliced to death you still have units inside that'll shoot out.
5. Wait how does it give you less dakka? Fast Skimmers can still fire as normal. It's one of the main advantages of them. And you can't just corner a super mobile vehicle that can simply fly over your vehicles. Believe me, when I was new I tried that because it works on tanks. I then promptly watched the skimmer just fly over (shoulda known but was getting really panicky). Also first? Bloody hell mate it's still AV 12/12/10! That's pretty bloody good! It takes S6 guns to even hope to get lucky glances with only statistical chances on 7+. And keep in mind that it's even harder for vehicles to explode now coupled with the fact that even if your gun falls off your shield will still work.
6. Stop blabbering on about the terrors of assault. Assault hasn't been good since 3rd edition with only a few exceptions.

Also, you mention 24" and 36" as though that's a bad thing. It's still a super mobile vehicle and that is certainly no bad range.

Finally, you are using several fallacies as well. First of all, just because the serpent (which you forget can be spammed and makes up for having to take troops) might not be as broken as the Riptide doesn't make Serpents NOT op. That or the baledrake was a poor bad unit that wasn't that good ever sense Tau came out . Along with that, important tip, Stars got massively nerfed this edition.

Finally, you seem to forget that Eldar are one of the best codices out there. Serpents are good, in fact OP perhaps even with the changes to jink but it's not the only positives. Also you are ignoring the fact you can now have objective secured serpents

1. Who cares, it's AV13, cheaper and spammable.
2. Turn 1 and 2 you need to be do damage or you will die. Your opponent can target almost any of your vehicles if you use them to shoot, keeping one in "defense mode" is pointless.
3. It has the upgrade, and it's a 3+ Still not an Iwin button, still nerfing your DPS by 75%
4. Thing is, there is no way you can not kill a mech with 2000 points of Termagaunts. Your transports cannot escape unless you leave a hole 12" away from them where they can land at the end of the movement phase, with a 7" long 4" wide transport and 1" base to base, that means you only need an army that's 6" deep to prevent them from running away.
5. No they don't, at 6" we get any number of weapons, at 12" we get two, last one is Snap Shot.
6. Well right now, assault is godly vs AV10 if you have S4 and AV11 if you have S5, and so on.

It's not a bad thing, it just means that the 60" Serpent Shield range is meaningless.

Just because the WS is vastly less powerful than the Riptide or the SeerStar does make it very competitive at best.

Finally, I don't care about objectives, I just like killing stuff.

Just need a quick comment about other people needing to learn to use "tactics" when facing 7+ Wave Serpents and we'll have covered all the bases.

Learn to play better!
Does that cover it?

morgoth wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:


1. A predator isn't a waveserpent. The two are completely different beasts. The predator is built for anti-tank, not a transport that can be durable (and even more durable than a predator as well as being mobile as a fast skimmer (meaning standard movement is 12") with a deadly high shot gun with high strength and ignores cover cutting several high saves down to lower ones such as stealth back to a 5+ or 6+ save.
2. Yes you do, but you can also measure the risks based upon how close you are to the enemy, what weapons they have. Mostly it's best to just shoot it.
3. With an upgrade it can go to a 3+. Besides that, I'm not disagreeing that jink isn't godly like it was in 6th but the serpent was dogdly despite ignores cover being common in the meta.
4. And Abaddon will be killed by a Tau firewarrior sometimes. Thing is, these pitiful 13.5 still need to reach you. You are still moving 12" per turn whilst the gaunts are at best going to move 6" and charge. Even with fleet their average charge range of 7 is only really boosted to an 8 or a 9. The range of the Eldar gun is pretty godly to add to that and even if the transport gets sliced to death you still have units inside that'll shoot out.
5. Wait how does it give you less dakka? Fast Skimmers can still fire as normal. It's one of the main advantages of them. And you can't just corner a super mobile vehicle that can simply fly over your vehicles. Believe me, when I was new I tried that because it works on tanks. I then promptly watched the skimmer just fly over (shoulda known but was getting really panicky). Also first? Bloody hell mate it's still AV 12/12/10! That's pretty bloody good! It takes S6 guns to even hope to get lucky glances with only statistical chances on 7+. And keep in mind that it's even harder for vehicles to explode now coupled with the fact that even if your gun falls off your shield will still work.
6. Stop blabbering on about the terrors of assault. Assault hasn't been good since 3rd edition with only a few exceptions.

Also, you mention 24" and 36" as though that's a bad thing. It's still a super mobile vehicle and that is certainly no bad range.

Finally, you are using several fallacies as well. First of all, just because the serpent (which you forget can be spammed and makes up for having to take troops) might not be as broken as the Riptide doesn't make Serpents NOT op. That or the baledrake was a poor bad unit that wasn't that good ever sense Tau came out . Along with that, important tip, Stars got massively nerfed this edition.

Finally, you seem to forget that Eldar are one of the best codices out there. Serpents are good, in fact OP perhaps even with the changes to jink but it's not the only positives. Also you are ignoring the fact you can now have objective secured serpents

1. Who cares, it's AV13, cheaper and spammable.

If dedicated Transports aren't spammable, then what is? 1 FOC can bring 3 Preds, or 12+ Serpents. Serpents are spammable, your own 7-serpent army proves that.

2. Turn 1 and 2 you need to be do damage or you will die. Your opponent can target almost any of your vehicles if you use them to shoot, keeping one in "defense mode" is pointless.

But with the firepower you can put out, those 2 turns can destroy half an army, especially if you're moving into SL range fast (and there's no way 36" qualifies as short range).

3. It has the upgrade, and it's a 3+ Still not an Iwin button, still nerfing your DPS by 75%

Except it's not 75%, because just one SL hit (a probability) TLs the rest of the shots.

4. Thing is, there is no way you can not kill a mech with 2000 points of Termagaunts. Your transports cannot escape unless you leave a hole 12" away from them where they can land at the end of the movement phase, with a 7" long 4" wide transport and 1" base to base, that means you only need an army that's 6" deep to prevent them from running away.

Is anyone going to bring 2000 points of termagants in real life? A clue: no.

5. No they don't, at 6" we get any number of weapons, at 12" we get two, last one is Snap Shot.

So a Serpent Shield (D6+1 shots) and a Scatter Laser (6 shots) isn't enough?

6. Well right now, assault is godly vs AV10 if you have S4 and AV11 if you have S5, and so on.

It is, but there's no reason they should be able to catch you in a realistic situation, given your firepower and mobility.

It's not a bad thing, it just means that the 60" Serpent Shield range is meaningless.

No, it's not meaningless. Being able to kill the guy with the Lascannon before that Lascannon is in range is not meaningless.

Just because the WS is vastly less powerful than the Riptide or the SeerStar does make it very competitive at best.

With 40k the way it is, the two are basically synonymous.

Finally, I don't care about objectives, I just like killing stuff.

Well this could be the problem. Play to table every game and of course you won't appreciate another other than sheer firepower.

morgoth wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
9 Serpents? Frankly, those have the range and mobility to blow away most units and keep evading the rest, and are far from weak with the AV12 and Shield if it's in defensive mode. I really don't see how that's a glass cannon, it's one of the top Eldar builds.

Glass cannons would be the likes of DE in Venoms or, to an extent, Orks in Trukks, where the units will wreck face if they hit you, but will also fold like a paper bag. Wave Serpents are leagues ahead of those AV10 open-topped deathtraps in terms of durability.

It's not one of the top Eldar builds at all (7 WS 2 Fire Prisms).

First of all, WS have EITHER dakka OR survivability, never both.
It's odd that a unit would have to make that choice every shooting phase, but that's how it is.

Jink is NOT a good thing, it's a cover save that costs you 75% of your firepower. You will avoid it at almost any cost.

Most of all, a table is only 48" x 72", and 9 Eldar Skimmers take a lot of space, I can assure you a competent player can corner and butcher them.

WOW, I really don't know what to say, there is no way that many serpents is a glass cannon. 1-3 Wave Serpents fair play. 4-5 is going on the edge of should only be seen at tournaments, or at least when your opponnents playing similar above average to top tier builds. 6+ OP not the top dog of top tier lists but good enough to contend with them.

In 6th edition my opponents had a hard enough time cracking 3 wave serpents, now in 7th the can't seem to touch them. I could only imagine how frustrating and hard 4+ Wave Serpents would be.

morgoth wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:


1. A predator isn't a waveserpent. The two are completely different beasts. The predator is built for anti-tank, not a transport that can be durable (and even more durable than a predator as well as being mobile as a fast skimmer (meaning standard movement is 12") with a deadly high shot gun with high strength and ignores cover cutting several high saves down to lower ones such as stealth back to a 5+ or 6+ save.
2. Yes you do, but you can also measure the risks based upon how close you are to the enemy, what weapons they have. Mostly it's best to just shoot it.
3. With an upgrade it can go to a 3+. Besides that, I'm not disagreeing that jink isn't godly like it was in 6th but the serpent was dogdly despite ignores cover being common in the meta.
4. And Abaddon will be killed by a Tau firewarrior sometimes. Thing is, these pitiful 13.5 still need to reach you. You are still moving 12" per turn whilst the gaunts are at best going to move 6" and charge. Even with fleet their average charge range of 7 is only really boosted to an 8 or a 9. The range of the Eldar gun is pretty godly to add to that and even if the transport gets sliced to death you still have units inside that'll shoot out.
5. Wait how does it give you less dakka? Fast Skimmers can still fire as normal. It's one of the main advantages of them. And you can't just corner a super mobile vehicle that can simply fly over your vehicles. Believe me, when I was new I tried that because it works on tanks. I then promptly watched the skimmer just fly over (shoulda known but was getting really panicky). Also first? Bloody hell mate it's still AV 12/12/10! That's pretty bloody good! It takes S6 guns to even hope to get lucky glances with only statistical chances on 7+. And keep in mind that it's even harder for vehicles to explode now coupled with the fact that even if your gun falls off your shield will still work.
6. Stop blabbering on about the terrors of assault. Assault hasn't been good since 3rd edition with only a few exceptions.

Also, you mention 24" and 36" as though that's a bad thing. It's still a super mobile vehicle and that is certainly no bad range.

Finally, you are using several fallacies as well. First of all, just because the serpent (which you forget can be spammed and makes up for having to take troops) might not be as broken as the Riptide doesn't make Serpents NOT op. That or the baledrake was a poor bad unit that wasn't that good ever sense Tau came out . Along with that, important tip, Stars got massively nerfed this edition.

Finally, you seem to forget that Eldar are one of the best codices out there. Serpents are good, in fact OP perhaps even with the changes to jink but it's not the only positives. Also you are ignoring the fact you can now have objective secured serpents

1. Who cares, it's AV13, cheaper and spammable.
2. Turn 1 and 2 you need to be do damage or you will die. Your opponent can target almost any of your vehicles if you use them to shoot, keeping one in "defense mode" is pointless.
3. It has the upgrade, and it's a 3+ Still not an Iwin button, still nerfing your DPS by 75%
4. Thing is, there is no way you can not kill a mech with 2000 points of Termagaunts. Your transports cannot escape unless you leave a hole 12" away from them where they can land at the end of the movement phase, with a 7" long 4" wide transport and 1" base to base, that means you only need an army that's 6" deep to prevent them from running away.
5. No they don't, at 6" we get any number of weapons, at 12" we get two, last one is Snap Shot.
6. Well right now, assault is godly vs AV10 if you have S4 and AV11 if you have S5, and so on.

It's not a bad thing, it just means that the 60" Serpent Shield range is meaningless.

Just because the WS is vastly less powerful than the Riptide or the SeerStar does make it very competitive at best.

Finally, I don't care about objectives, I just like killing stuff.

I agree with you and get what you're saying. I wouldn't normally bother to post something like that but seeing as everyone is telling you you're wrong, I thought I might as well voice my support.

morgoth wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:


1. A predator isn't a waveserpent. The two are completely different beasts. The predator is built for anti-tank, not a transport that can be durable (and even more durable than a predator as well as being mobile as a fast skimmer (meaning standard movement is 12") with a deadly high shot gun with high strength and ignores cover cutting several high saves down to lower ones such as stealth back to a 5+ or 6+ save.
2. Yes you do, but you can also measure the risks based upon how close you are to the enemy, what weapons they have. Mostly it's best to just shoot it.
3. With an upgrade it can go to a 3+. Besides that, I'm not disagreeing that jink isn't godly like it was in 6th but the serpent was dogdly despite ignores cover being common in the meta.
4. And Abaddon will be killed by a Tau firewarrior sometimes. Thing is, these pitiful 13.5 still need to reach you. You are still moving 12" per turn whilst the gaunts are at best going to move 6" and charge. Even with fleet their average charge range of 7 is only really boosted to an 8 or a 9. The range of the Eldar gun is pretty godly to add to that and even if the transport gets sliced to death you still have units inside that'll shoot out.
5. Wait how does it give you less dakka? Fast Skimmers can still fire as normal. It's one of the main advantages of them. And you can't just corner a super mobile vehicle that can simply fly over your vehicles. Believe me, when I was new I tried that because it works on tanks. I then promptly watched the skimmer just fly over (shoulda known but was getting really panicky). Also first? Bloody hell mate it's still AV 12/12/10! That's pretty bloody good! It takes S6 guns to even hope to get lucky glances with only statistical chances on 7+. And keep in mind that it's even harder for vehicles to explode now coupled with the fact that even if your gun falls off your shield will still work.
6. Stop blabbering on about the terrors of assault. Assault hasn't been good since 3rd edition with only a few exceptions.

Also, you mention 24" and 36" as though that's a bad thing. It's still a super mobile vehicle and that is certainly no bad range.

Finally, you are using several fallacies as well. First of all, just because the serpent (which you forget can be spammed and makes up for having to take troops) might not be as broken as the Riptide doesn't make Serpents NOT op. That or the baledrake was a poor bad unit that wasn't that good ever sense Tau came out . Along with that, important tip, Stars got massively nerfed this edition.

Finally, you seem to forget that Eldar are one of the best codices out there. Serpents are good, in fact OP perhaps even with the changes to jink but it's not the only positives. Also you are ignoring the fact you can now have objective secured serpents

1. Who cares, it's AV13, cheaper and spammable.
2. Turn 1 and 2 you need to be do damage or you will die. Your opponent can target almost any of your vehicles if you use them to shoot, keeping one in "defense mode" is pointless.
3. It has the upgrade, and it's a 3+ Still not an Iwin button, still nerfing your DPS by 75%
4. Thing is, there is no way you can not kill a mech with 2000 points of Termagaunts. Your transports cannot escape unless you leave a hole 12" away from them where they can land at the end of the movement phase, with a 7" long 4" wide transport and 1" base to base, that means you only need an army that's 6" deep to prevent them from running away.
5. No they don't, at 6" we get any number of weapons, at 12" we get two, last one is Snap Shot.
6. Well right now, assault is godly vs AV10 if you have S4 and AV11 if you have S5, and so on.

It's not a bad thing, it just means that the 60" Serpent Shield range is meaningless.

Just because the WS is vastly less powerful than the Riptide or the SeerStar does make it very competitive at best.

Finally, I don't care about objectives, I just like killing stuff.

1. Really who cares? That's the worst argument I've ever heard. Here's the thing you don't seem to get, Predators and Waveserpents aren't the same beasts. The predator is designed to be anti-tank and heavy, the waveserpent is designed to be a transport that somehow has the same strength as a waveserpent. So then, let's compare. I'll use the cheapest type of predator, a chaos predator. 75 points for a vehicle with BS4 F13 S11 R10 Hp3 Vehicle (tank) and starts with an autocannon, searchlight, and smoke launcher. An autocannon means firing 2 Str7 ap4 shots at 48". That's really not that exceptional. The really only somewhat popular predator variant (and even then doesn't get all too much time in competitive) is the tri-las predator. That makes the predator cost 140 points. The serpent starts at 115 points and is often upgraded to become 130 points with a total of Twinlinked Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon and Serpent Shield. Let's observe the pros and cons now won't we?


The only thing that makes the predator cheaper is not needing to have troops in it. That said, even the predators need troops as always and you can actually spam more serpents. There is no natural way to field 9 predators without abusing force org combined arms. Even then, you will have to take additional HQs and troops. There is a way to field 9 waveserpents without even needing to do that despite the fact that the Waveserpent is not only more mobile, a transport, can steal objectives, and is not only good at killing hordes but also killing vehicles.

2. Not every army can. There's no equal distribution of firearms in this game. Orks largely rely on lootas for their dakka and the rest on CC, Chaos Daemons largely relied on CC to take care of foes despite most assault units being bad. The only real ranged threat you have to worry about from daemons is the soulgrinder maybe and the flaming chariot of tzeentch which is even more fragile at AV10/10/10 with only a 5+ invuln save to protect it. This comes and goes per army and don't forget, yeah you will probably lose some serpents. Shocker, some of your units will die and usually its the scariest ones first.

3. Along with that, you can say it's nerfing your shots but you are forgetting that it's better to suffer a loss to your DPS than it is to lose your model entirely. Think about that advantage above all else. Sure, it might not be shooting as well this turn but it's alive unlike many!

4. There is no way you cannot kill a mech with 2000 points of Termagaunts Depends actually. What are the rules for gaunts not in synapse again? Ooooh yeah! Run and hide! Guess what, they either immediately retreat or they head to the best cover possible. They will run for cover if not already in it. You need synapse to make them work but then it's not 2000 points of gaunts is it? Also, never. Eeeeever EVER say there is "no way you can not kill ". We play a game of random dice with very few impossibilities. Also termegaunts can only harm your vehicles in two ways. One, by shooting it with their close range guns. Two, if they pay for upgrades. They are S3 naturally and only get S4 if you buy and upgrade that still relies on charging. Multicharge and you can't. Also you forget your mobile units are zipping around shooting the enemy to death all the while. The model is still always moving 12" don't forget and that's without flatouting. Sure, you might only snapfire that turn but, yet again, so what. It is more important to live than to die.

5. Fast skimmer mate Fast skimmer. And even if its 2.... just don't fire the shuriken catapult and suddenly you are doing it from range 36" instead of the 24"

6. Yes, assault is godly versus av10. Thing is, not everything has S4. Shockingly, most things have S3! Those gaunts you scream of killing in CC? They naturally can't make a scratch mate unless firing which is still only glances on backside. Even with an assault, it takes a lot of hits with only hoping for glances on a 6 at S4. And the finale, yes, vehicles like LR get dismantled easily in CC but you are a bloody fast skimmer! You can dance circles around 13.5 gaunts and shoot them while they are down!

And no, the 60" isn't meaningless. If I buy sponsoons on my tank and I can't fire them because out of range (be it guns having different ranges or simply because sponsoons are further back on the vehicle), I don't cry that the range is meaningless. 60" means you will hit anything on the map as long as you can see it. That coupled with your good speed and the good 36" range shot means that there is no safe zone.

And why is it very competitive at best? Because it is... wait for it, broken.

And if you don't care about objectives then you are not properly using it. OH IT'S SO BAD! Hey tip it can score objectives BUT I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT! Think about how that sounds for a moment. It's like if you complain about being hungry and somebody gives you cookies but all you do is say I only think cookies are okay I wanted chocolate instead! Dude it's a chocolate chip cookie the chocolates are in it!

Anyways, we are getting off topic. The problem is you claimed that Serpents are glass cannons. Thing is, they are not glass cannons. DE transports are glass cannons with good killy but av10 everywhere. The flaming chariot can chug out a possible 3 lascannon shots but it's a fast skimmer with av10 all sides. Those are fragile and killy. The waveserpent is a tanky beast medium-high tankiness with extreme killiness.

Waveserpents, Heldrakes, Riptides, etc are just as bad for the game as the existence of godly stars as is the existence of units like Banshees, Pyrovores, and Thousand Sons. I want balance in my game, not these radically over the top good and bad units.

As per the topic itself, yes, people will abuse things. Its just how humans will go at many a thing. Still, there's always a catch. The problem with criticizing abuses comes in a few things. For starters, in competitive level abusing is simply a matter of life. It's in there so it works. The other problem is that well.... fluffy things can be broken. White Scars were too good and were very fluffy in their play stile, the Riptide heavy army that used a commander to buff it was also rather fluffy if an individual made up fluff for it (not to mention being a part of battlesuits which are popular with man), waveserpents? Very good and very fluffy. It's kind of like the Draigowing deathstar from the previous edition. It's very fluffy and there are obvious reasons why somebody would play it not just because its good.

I love these threads, they always devolve into people wanting to play fluffy, not the strongest, but not necessarily the weakest lists, to represent "real" armies on the tabletop, and rules lawyers who have been around forever who will use any justification ever to make sure they get to do what they want and that it is allowed, so it should be okay, period!

People who keep asking what are WAAC lists anyway, come on. You already know the answer. You're just trying to justify your behavior to everyone else. Or argue the opponent down to nothing in the hopes of winning an internet argument, just like you would do during the game.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I love these threads, they always devolve into people wanting to play fluffy, not the strongest, but not necessarily the weakest lists, to represent "real" armies on the tabletop, and rules lawyers who have been around forever who will use any justification ever to make sure they get to do what they want and that it is allowed, so it should be okay, period!

People who keep asking what are WAAC lists anyway, come on. You already know the answer. You're just trying to justify your behavior to everyone else. Or argue the opponent down to nothing in the hopes of winning an internet argument, just like you would do during the game.

Not quite. The most important question is... what is WAAC? Some people simply say that competitive lists are WAAC. Some people call anybody wanting to win are WAAC. And some people consider WAAC to be people that will cheat and act rudely throughout the entire game. So what is our definition exactly?

As per WAAC lists, the problem is that it isn't the list, it's the person. I have a friend who wants 3 riptides and commanders. He loves battlesuits, he wants to play them. In 6th edition, maybe 7th edition, this would have been broken against my army but he didn't do it because WAAC. A FMC spam list? When I was a beginner I imagined getting 3 DP and 1 LoC and having fluff for each to represent the lrod and his commanders. It would be the moment that the true terrors appeared to stride the battlefield with unholy might. I never fielded it because it would actually be too good for my group but I really did want to. The possibilities for fluff were absolutely endless limited only by my wallet I have an Eldar player who had wanted to build a mechanized list. He started in the ends of 5th edition and bought, as many probably did, the waveserpent. Should he be punished for using models that are largely good especially when one of the best units in the game is your single dedicated transport? That's the problem, things are always ambiguous. White Scar players? Any dedicated White Scar player might be shunned simply because in this edition they suddenly magically became good. Now, if I saw somebody with a Screamerstar I'd be 99% sure it's a player that wants to be competitive (well in 6th at least) but there are some that are far more murky.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I love these threads, they always devolve into people wanting to play fluffy, not the strongest, but not necessarily the weakest lists, to represent "real" armies on the tabletop, and rules lawyers who have been around forever who will use any justification ever to make sure they get to do what they want and that it is allowed, so it should be okay, period!

People who keep asking what are WAAC lists anyway, come on. You already know the answer. You're just trying to justify your behavior to everyone else. Or argue the opponent down to nothing in the hopes of winning an internet argument, just like you would do during the game.

No, I believe the point was to show that not everyone's idea of "WAAC" is the same, so who's definition should we use?

 Paradigm wrote:

If dedicated Transports aren't spammable, then what is? 1 FOC can bring 3 Preds, or 12+ Serpents. Serpents are spammable, your own 7-serpent army proves that.

1. They are spammable, that doesn't make them OP

 Paradigm wrote:
But with the firepower you can put out, those 2 turns can destroy half an army, especially if you're moving into SL range fast (and there's no way 36" qualifies as short range).

No you cannot destroy half an army, EVEN if you move into 24" range, because there is LoS, cover (not ignored by more than half the DPS), and jinked / hurt WS from the past turn.

 Paradigm wrote:
Except it's not 75%, because just one SL hit (a probability) TLs the rest of the shots.

Except it is, because I did the math and you did not.

 Paradigm wrote:
Is anyone going to bring 2000 points of termagants in real life? A clue: no.

But if 2000 points of dumb termagaunts can take down a Mech, a properly designed army list can do it too. The Termagaunt is obviously not a great WS counter.

 Paradigm wrote:
So a Serpent Shield (D6+1 shots) and a Scatter Laser (6 shots) isn't enough?

I wish they were 6 shots, but they're only 4, sorry.

 Paradigm wrote:
It is, but there's no reason they should be able to catch you in a realistic situation, given your firepower and mobility.

Well, on a 48"x72" table, I can make it happen as the opposing player, if you can't you're not really trying.
You may arrive one turn late and lose anyway, but if you don't make contact, you're not even trying.

 Paradigm wrote:
No, it's not meaningless. Being able to kill the guy with the Lascannon before that Lascannon is in range is not meaningless.

And losing more than half of your dakka just to kill that one guy with the Lascannon at a hypothetical range that almost never happens on a 48"x72" board ? sure. go do that, I'll be trying to win instead.

 Paradigm wrote:
With 40k the way it is, the two are basically synonymous.

I don't think so, competitive means it's not trash, OP means it cannot be matched.

 Paradigm wrote:
Well this could be the problem. Play to table every game and of course you won't appreciate another other than sheer firepower.

If you'd rather run around to capture meaningless objectives for the sake of it every single game, suit yourself.
I play for strategy, tactics and that's it.
I'm not interested in "capture this ruin this turn and we give you a complimentary victory point" bs.

And one little thing. If you play for strategy and tactics (which you can't really do one of those) and are doing that in a horribly imbalanced game, I want to point out that tactics would involve capturing that ruin. Really I'd prefer you respond to my post simply because I pointed out some points that you have missed or chosen to ignore.

That and your argument of termegaunts killing in CC doesn't work naturally. It's an upgrade of furious charge. If not, they are only S3