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Have an Exalt!

 Chute82 wrote:
Florida Atlantic plays Alabama football because it brings money to their football program. If Florida Atlantic was not getting paid they would never play that game

That and we desperately want to get out of our current division, get some positive press, and justify the spending so much on a stadium and not, say, new IR machines for the organic 2 labs...

It might make some a better player, but some people aren't all that concerned with getting better. Some people would rather just play random-ish games with other like-minded players. Doesn't mean you - or anyone else - has to, though.

Toofast wrote:
Well the hammerheads took out my LRC and Las predator in the top of turn 1 before I could even move them, so I would say those points were well spent. I wouldn't have cared if he brought 5 riptides, I still would've played him and that's the point here. Playing against armies like that makes you a better player. Whining on a forum about an obvious fact like eldar being powerful does not make you a better player. Lining up against 4 wave serpents, jetseer and wraith knight and figuring out how to hurt them makes you a better player.

You seem to be under the impression that any army can beat any army, 40k is so imbalanced that there are so many times that there is literally NOTHING you can do better to make a games outcome any different.

I could build every single list I take as 100% optimized and still lose 95% of the time against certain list because there is far to much rock, paper, scissors in this game. Eldar happen to be the dynamite. You can beat them, sometimes, but a lot of the time there is just nothing you can do about it. Look at 7th Tyranids vs Eldar, nothing the Tyranid player can do is going to beat Serpent Spam short of the dice gods.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm fully aware that some armies are more powerful than others. I never once tried to pretend that 40k is a game perfectly balanced between factions. However, if you take an optimized list and play well with it, your chances of getting tabled on turn 2 are slim to none. I don't see how stating the obvious imbalance between factions in 40k diminishes my point that playing against a more powerful army is probably going to teach you the most about how to build an optimized list and make better decisions on the table.

The joys of broken Rock Paper Scissors balancing. (Vanilla WoW, Roguecraft).

Toofast wrote:
Sometimes Florida Atlantic has to play Alabama, they don't get to sit at home just because the other team has more talent. I think people need to realize that no game is perfectly balanced and if they bring a mediocre list, they lose the right to throw a fit when things don't go their way on the table.

While I appreciate that you like the way it works, it's not really comparable to (is that American Football that Florida Atlantic and Alabama play?). Ball sports are balanced, the imbalance comes from a difference in ability of the team. 40k imbalance comes from difference in army choice and how much you are willing to exploit the flaws in the balance. Someone might be very willing to have an army that looks nothing like an army in order to win, another person feel, being a "wargame" and all, they want their army to actually look like an army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yonan wrote:
The joys of broken Rock Paper Scissors balancing. (Vanilla WoW, Roguecraft).

LOL, pretty much.

Makumba wrote:
I have an am army and it has fewer tanks then 1 eldar army runs and it is impossible to transport unless my boyfriend helps me.

So you have 2 to negative tanks?

I play Eldar, I run at most 3 Tanks, and most of the time 2/3 of them are not Serpents.


My standard list?
Farseer (or two depending on point level)
Warlocks (split up to lead units)
3 squads of Guardians
3 squads of Windriders
1 Crimson Hunter
1 Nightspinner
1 Support Battery
1 War Walker Sqaudron.

Occasionally I'll give one of the Guardians squads a Serpent, and/or swap out the Battery and/or Walkers for a Fire Prism.

Out of the 7 people that play eldar here only one runs fewer then 4 serpents and all run 1 WK . He also runs 6 walkers so it evens out on transportation.

However, if you take an optimized list and play well with it, your chances of getting tabled on turn 2 are slim to none

Unless you end up on a lava board or you don't play a reserv army and your opponent is shoty and gets turn 1. Or when your opponent plays a counter build. I remember in 5th people droping games against draigo wing without playing, not because DW was the best army out there, but just because on avarge it was impossible for them to kill enough models to win kill point missions. They were being tabled not on turn 2, but pre game.

I'd hate your meta, Makumba. Fortunately, not all meta's are like that. I don't think mine has seen 3+ Serpents on the board at the same time. And only 1 player has 1 (rarely used) wraithknight.

Different metas are different.

Bharring wrote:
Different metas are different.

This is almost exclusively a problem with 40k. Obviously different metas are always going to have different levels of competitiveness, but the fact you can show up in one meta and get dominated or dominate before you even put your models on the table shows a bit of a flaw in 40k.

I play Eldar, but I haven't ever been refused a game. At my store, we often set up games days in advance, and I always ask what kind of game they want to play. Sometimes the answer is "Bring your "A" game, whatever is competitive," other times it is "I just want a laid back, fluffy game." I build accordingly and usually have a good time. I have tabled someone one time so far in 7th, and that was due to a BRUTAL turn one... we reset the game immediately and I turned over turn one... went great from there.

Tournaments are tournaments, friendly games should be friendly. But one thing is certain, the army the OP faced wasn't NEAR what is scary in the Eldar codex, as I have been beaten by IG with far better lists than that

Eldar are tough, and that means you need to bring a list suited to handling a tough army.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Toofast wrote:
I played tau a couple weeks ago against 2 riptides, 2 hammerheads, broadsides, crisis suits and stealth suits.

Yes, his list was OP.

Doesn't look like it to me, the riptides are the only thing in that list even remotely close to being "OP". In fact without the riptides it pretty much looks like what a typical Tau list has always looked like, except no Tau player ever used stealth suits and many would still argue the hammerheads are wasted points when you could just spam more missiles or riptides.

If all these options are "OP" then that doesn't leave a Tau player with much else to work with. Kroot with sky rays? Is that really it?

I've found a couple 3 suit stealth squads with a homing beacon, fusion blaster and markerlight+Target Lock on the Shas'vre can be effective in a Farsight Enclaves list.

Deploy them out of line of sight in some ruins. Opponent either has to dedicate firepower to removing them (and therefore less firepower for killing your other stuff) or risk pinpoint deep strikes from Crisis Suits. Also, with the Fusion Blaster in there, many opponents are nervous about moving vehicles close to the terrain you're hiding in, which can greatly reduce their mobility on the battlefield.

I really don't see Eldar as anti-fun, certain Eldar builds? sure. I got back into 40k after my buddies started playing again, they were ecstatic that I chose Eldar as they had a distinct lack of Xenos in the group. I've played Eldar for years, even back in Epic days they were my favourite list, I just love the aesthetic. And personally, I don't really care about the strength/weakness of a unit. If I like the models, I'm taking it, period. As of right now my force is entirely on foot, 3 units of wraith constructs, rangers, 2 spiritseers, 2 wraithlords, wraithknight. I probably wouldn't have got the wraithknight initially but it came with the bundle, and it's a fantastic model. My old Eldar (before selling) was Biel Tan, all mounted in transports with a few Vypers. i didn't want a repeat of that army so chose wraiths (which I always liked, the new plastics made it harder to resist) After a few more games I may feel like I need some mobility due to the TOCs, so yes I may get a wave serpent for one of my wraith units, but I may also get an allied DE hellion/wych contingent to give me some speed. And harlequins are a must, even if I dread painting them.
I will adjust my army as I go along based on the meta of my group. If I'm getting my ass kicked day in, day out, I'll adjust upwards until the results are more even. I don't want an auto-win list which makes the game unfun for my opponents. We play because it's fun, not to wafflestomp each other. My last game was a 2x2 match of 750pts each. My Eldar plus Ultras vs Guard and DAs. We won the game but the VPs were very, very close. It was a fun game...that's all I'm seeking in this hobby.

bullyboy, that sounds like a nice looking Wraith army. Just a couple of things to add to the discussion:

We have a bunch of Eldar kin where I'm at (myself included), and maybe half of them run 4 Wave Serpents, WK and stuff. And while these armies are strong, I can see that everyone's having fun playing them anyways. The games have not been one-sided, and the mighty Eldar have lost quite a lot of games too. Then there's the other half who run no WK, less or no Serpents, or purist Ranger Force amies and other more exotic list. Not as strong, they do get beaten, and they do win too.

40k is not a balanced game. Wargaming was never balanced to start with, unless you play Chess. Way before I took up 40k, my wargaming experience has been purely refighting Napoleonic and WW2 historical battles. And none fo those battles were ever balanced. In fact, they should be imbalanced, and the guy with disadvantaged side would always have more fun trying to figure out how to survive, or even win.

40k tournaments can never be compared to proper sports like football, tennis, swimming, etc, precisely because 40k is not balanced. I've played in many 40k tournaments before, and even won a couple. And I've also participated in many swimming tourneys before, and won some medals. And I can tell you they are 2 completely different worlds.

 spunkybass wrote:
bullyboy, that sounds like a nice looking Wraith army. Just a couple of things to add to the discussion:

We have a bunch of Eldar kin where I'm at (myself included), and maybe half of them run 4 Wave Serpents, WK and stuff. And while these armies are strong, I can see that everyone's having fun playing them anyways. The games have not been one-sided, and the mighty Eldar have lost quite a lot of games too. Then there's the other half who run no WK, less or no Serpents, or purist Ranger Force amies and other more exotic list. Not as strong, they do get beaten, and they do win too.

40k is not a balanced game. Wargaming was never balanced to start with, unless you play Chess. Way before I took up 40k, my wargaming experience has been purely refighting Napoleonic and WW2 historical battles. And none fo those battles were ever balanced. In fact, they should be imbalanced, and the guy with disadvantaged side would always have more fun trying to figure out how to survive, or even win.

40k tournaments can never be compared to proper sports like football, tennis, swimming, etc, precisely because 40k is not balanced. I've played in many 40k tournaments before, and even won a couple. And I've also participated in many swimming tourneys before, and won some medals. And I can tell you they are 2 completely different worlds.

You're talking about perfect balance, which no one's calling for. Other wargames do a much better job of balance than 40k, so it is possible and creates a much better community because there is no difference between fluff and competitive players. Sports is a poor analogy to tabletop gamming. Stay with other tabletop games.
If the game is balanced, but you want to create an imbalanced scenario like an ambush or raid, then you can always imbalance it yourself. But to have the default game so grossly imbalanced is a problem.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Well the hammerheads took out my LRC and Las predator in the top of turn 1 before I could even move them, so I would say those points were well spent. I wouldn't have cared if he brought 5 riptides, I still would've played him and that's the point here. Playing against armies like that makes you a better player. Whining on a forum about an obvious fact like eldar being powerful does not make you a better player. Lining up against 4 wave serpents, jetseer and wraith knight and figuring out how to hurt them makes you a better player.

You seem to be under the impression that any army can beat any army, 40k is so imbalanced that there are so many times that there is literally NOTHING you can do better to make a games outcome any different.

I could build every single list I take as 100% optimized and still lose 95% of the time against certain list because there is far to much rock, paper, scissors in this game. Eldar happen to be the dynamite. You can beat them, sometimes, but a lot of the time there is just nothing you can do about it. Look at 7th Tyranids vs Eldar, nothing the Tyranid player can do is going to beat Serpent Spam short of the dice gods.

This guy has it down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 spunkybass wrote:
bullyboy, that sounds like a nice looking Wraith army. Just a couple of things to add to the discussion:

We have a bunch of Eldar kin where I'm at (myself included), and maybe half of them run 4 Wave Serpents, WK and stuff. And while these armies are strong, I can see that everyone's having fun playing them anyways. The games have not been one-sided, and the mighty Eldar have lost quite a lot of games too. Then there's the other half who run no WK, less or no Serpents, or purist Ranger Force amies and other more exotic list. Not as strong, they do get beaten, and they do win too.

40k is not a balanced game. Wargaming was never balanced to start with, unless you play Chess. Way before I took up 40k, my wargaming experience has been purely refighting Napoleonic and WW2 historical battles. And none fo those battles were ever balanced. In fact, they should be imbalanced, and the guy with disadvantaged side would always have more fun trying to figure out how to survive, or even win.

40k tournaments can never be compared to proper sports like football, tennis, swimming, etc, precisely because 40k is not balanced. I've played in many 40k tournaments before, and even won a couple. And I've also participated in many swimming tourneys before, and won some medals. And I can tell you they are 2 completely different worlds.

You're talking about perfect balance, which no one's calling for. Other wargames do a much better job of balance than 40k, so it is possible and creates a much better community because there is no difference between fluff and competitive players. Sports is a poor analogy to tabletop gamming. Stay with other tabletop games.
If the game is balanced, but you want to create an imbalanced scenario like an ambush or raid, then you can always imbalance it yourself. But to have the default game so grossly imbalanced is a problem.

Also, This ^^. So much of this.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Well the hammerheads took out my LRC and Las predator in the top of turn 1 before I could even move them, so I would say those points were well spent. I wouldn't have cared if he brought 5 riptides, I still would've played him and that's the point here. Playing against armies like that makes you a better player. Whining on a forum about an obvious fact like eldar being powerful does not make you a better player. Lining up against 4 wave serpents, jetseer and wraith knight and figuring out how to hurt them makes you a better player.

You seem to be under the impression that any army can beat any army, 40k is so imbalanced that there are so many times that there is literally NOTHING you can do better to make a games outcome any different.

I could build every single list I take as 100% optimized and still lose 95% of the time against certain list because there is far to much rock, paper, scissors in this game. Eldar happen to be the dynamite. You can beat them, sometimes, but a lot of the time there is just nothing you can do about it. Look at 7th Tyranids vs Eldar, nothing the Tyranid player can do is going to beat Serpent Spam short of the dice gods.

indeed, GW i think totally overshot their goal and wont be balancing the eldar book next time round as hard. heres what i want to see the eldar book 1st out and then from there gmp the f!ck out of it like they did the DA codex. or just not release one next revision so GW can proceed to 4th edition orkify them. kick the space elves back to the bloody stone age

Started playing in 3rd and stopped in 5th so can't exactly speak to the current state of the game, but this complaint is nothing new. I played Eldar and heard the complaints plenty of times. Thing was, they never really made a lot of sense when you actually looked at the armies I fielded. I didn't spam starcannons and wraithlords in the days before the 4th edition Eldar codex, but if I dared have one or two of either in my list, here came the calls of cheese. Usually the opponents complaining didn't know what they were talking about and it was just a reflex action. If they actually understood Eldar (isn't one of the basics of battle to know your enemy?) they would be able to see that my lists weren't particularly lethal.

The best example of this was a time when I was beginning to play an Iyanden style list following the release of the 4th edition Eldar codex. One opponent saw the three wraithlords and started grumbling like crazy. My list at the time had serious flaws that made it basically impossible to win--I lost the first 7 or 8 games I played with that army and ended up reducing the number of wraithlords to make my list better. Instead I added some Vypers which were a rarely used, not particularly well respected unit, but gave me some benefits that were missing from the list.

I eventually had a good list that I won regularly with, but it took a lot of work, trial and error to get there. I don't think that style army was ever one that was dominating everywhere, but it was Eldar and had "cheesy" units so the reflexive bitterness, fear and whining were there.

My experience was that I would be regularly beat by good players, especially when I was playing lists that I built because I liked the model or the idea of the unit. My games were not auto win no tactics needed games.

Not much has changed it seems.

 ionusx wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

Toofast wrote:
Well the hammerheads took out my LRC and Las predator in the top of turn 1 before I could even move them, so I would say those points were well spent. I wouldn't have cared if he brought 5 riptides, I still would've played him and that's the point here. Playing against armies like that makes you a better player. Whining on a forum about an obvious fact like eldar being powerful does not make you a better player. Lining up against 4 wave serpents, jetseer and wraith knight and figuring out how to hurt them makes you a better player.

You seem to be under the impression that any army can beat any army, 40k is so imbalanced that there are so many times that there is literally NOTHING you can do better to make a games outcome any different.

I could build every single list I take as 100% optimized and still lose 95% of the time against certain list because there is far to much rock, paper, scissors in this game. Eldar happen to be the dynamite. You can beat them, sometimes, but a lot of the time there is just nothing you can do about it. Look at 7th Tyranids vs Eldar, nothing the Tyranid player can do is going to beat Serpent Spam short of the dice gods.

indeed, GW i think totally overshot their goal and wont be balancing the eldar book next time round as hard. heres what i want to see the eldar book 1st out and then from there gmp the f!ck out of it like they did the DA codex. or just not release one next revision so GW can proceed to 4th edition orkify them. kick the space elves back to the bloody stone age

Except they've never really been bad, the only time they did was because the 5th edition kicked a few mechanics in. 4th edition eldar had the very powerful skimmerspam list.

I know as an Eldar player, there were several "anti-fun" things about playing as them back in 3rd/4th editions.........some of their units were horribly priced out, and defninitely not in the Eldar's favor.

I guess Skimmerspam made them powerful in those editions, but i never have had more than two grav-tanks in my army, so I never experienced either side of the issue.

got to play a game yesterday vs Deathwing with my Iyanden. Things didn't look great for the deathwing initially as he deepstriked Belial, a Librarian and 5 termies into range of my WK with suncannon. I opened up on the unit with Rangers, getting 2 precision shots that went onto the lead terminator with stormshield. One of those was rending and he failed his 3+ save. After that, the suncannon ended up doing 15 wounds on the unit (after rerolls, all 3 of the blasts hit). after some look out sir rolls, etc, the last wound killed off Belial (the rest of the unit, including the Librarian were dead by that point). That was turn 2. However, he came back into the fight, taking out all 3 of my wraith units and 1 wraithlord (assaulted by 3 DW knights who hadn't used their S10 strike). The game ended with him having 3 knights left plus 4/10 scouts. I had my rangers, a lord and the knight. I'd lost all my psykers (farseer and 2 spiritseers). Final VPs were 10-9 in my favour (TOC). Can't ask for a better game than that. My army definitely lacks mobility so it's hard to get some objectives on the cards. The D-scythe guys definitely need a serpent, he was deathly afraid of them so shot the heck out of them.

I've been playing 40k since 1996. At one point in time I've used a variety of "main" armies. Started with SW, moved to Eldar, went to BA, DE then back to Eldar.

Their codex is strong, and it's compeditive. There's no denying it. Honestly, I think it's the best written 6th ed codex top to bottom in terms of being fluffy, challenging and fun.

Yes, there are a few things that are exceptionally good. Wave Serpents are very strong, Warp Spiders work wonders for me. Bike spam can be difficult to stop, until your opponent gets anything that ignores cover -- then say goodbye to that Mantle of the Laughing God Farseer.

Personally, I think it's an experience thing. There's nothing in the Eldar book that's broken or close to it. There are things that are good and can be deadly with the right tactics, but that's it. Eldar play like they always have -- a hamfisted mess in the wrong hands, a friggin' scalpel in the right ones.

Key to beating Eldar is choking their target priority and taking out their biggest threats. Personally, I don't see anything that scary about singing spear spam. If you said he was bringing 8 wave serpents, then we can talk.

 Auswin wrote:
Key to beating Eldar is choking their target priority and taking out their biggest threats.

Could you be more specific?

 TheSilo wrote:
I've been back in the hobby for about four months, and have played five games against Eldar. Every one has ended with me tabled and it's the only army that has tabled me.

Playing today in a 2v2 (Guard+Guard versus Eldar+Tau, 1,000 points each player) the Eldar shining spears wrecked house. Two max units each with a lvl 3 farseer, both with fortune. I had two lvl 1 psykers, but could never manage to deny the witch on fortune. So, while on average 1/36 lasgun shots will kill a terminator, in this game on average 1/54 shots will kill a shining spear with fortune.

Turn 1 it was my ally's leman russ battle tank that bit the dust.

Turn 2 it was my tank commander vanquisher and his eradicator buddy tank.

Turn 3 it was my conscript squad and my ally's conscript squad.

Turn 4 it was a single unit double assaulting against a 20 man blob squad and 10 of my camo vets, wiped out both of them.

Turn 5 it was both my chimeras and their squads, by the end of the turn I had nothing left on the table. And my ally had one chimera and a valkyrie.

Playing against Eldar is the worst 40k experience ever. In this game, the Tau player rolled horrendously, he was a non-factor. His hammerhead failed its armor penetration rolls three turns in a row and Shadowsun mishapped on turn 3, finally made it on in turn 4, only managing to kill my wyvern. 80% of our entire combined 2,000 points of tanks and guardsmen were wiped clean by two units of shining spears, sporting armor saves 50% better than terminators. Even if they have to jink, their 4++ dodge save is 30% better than space marine armor. All armed with +S power weapons and S6 lance weapons. This is the second time I've faced this list and I'm at a complete loss for how I'm supposed to even contend with it.

I hate to be That Guy, but I'm ready to simply stop accepting games against Eldar.

You know its not a good thing your losing to some of the worst eldar units there are.
He also got Reaalllyyyy lucky grabbing 2 fortunes. Honestly his list sounds like garbage....

Hmm, sounds like Shining Spears are the inverse of what they have been for 15 years, ever since they got priced at 50pts each in the 3rd edition codex and I cursed heavily.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Auswin wrote:
Key to beating Eldar is choking their target priority and taking out their biggest threats.

Could you be more specific?

It comes through how you have to play Eldar. Everything only has one good use and it's critical to remember that unlike many armies Eldar don't get to mix and match ranged weapons inside a squad, outside of exarchs and guardians. The former are simply buffed versions of the regular weapons, the latter are platforms -- but Guardians are easy to kill.

Since a fire dragon squad have meltas they're expensive by Eldar standards. So they have to be used for their intended purpose: Taking out vehicles and/or heavy infantry. To do otherwise is wasting their target priority and ensuring they probably wont earn back their points.
Dire Avengers are fantastic at killing rank and file troops, but are utterly useless in CC outside of a beefed up exarch.
Striking Scorpions are good at taking on hordes, but struggle against everything else.
And so on.

An Eldar player will deploy with these factors in mind and push towards a specific goal with each unit. When it wins it wins big, when it fails you're in deep trouble.

Shining Spears have their very specific role too: Taking out MEQ and monstrous creatures. Yes, having mass units with fortune is a tough nut to crack -- but the list is lacking all over because you opponent is spending a tremendous amount on a unit that's being used sub-optimally.

Also, I'm having a hard time understanding why your lasguns only had a 1/54 chance to kill a shining spear. It's just a 3+ with a reroll at T4.

I broke it down with a dice calculator.
30 shots.
Hitting on 4s: 15 hits
Wounding on 5s: 5 wounds
Saving on 3s: 3.33 saves
Rerolling sales: 2.22 saves
In 30 shots you're killing 1 shining spear, not 1/54.

A single shining spear is 25 pts. A single guardsman is 5 pts. They should be killing 5/1 on a pure points value. A max level Shining Spear squad is shooting 10 times, hitting 6.66 times and killing 5.56 guardsmen. It's essentially equal -- and they're sinking points in a farseer on a bike AND that's not factoring in rapid fire or orders.

 Auswin wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

 Auswin wrote:
Key to beating Eldar is choking their target priority and taking out their biggest threats.

Could you be more specific?

It comes through how you have to play Eldar. Everything only has one good use and it's critical to remember that unlike many armies Eldar don't get to mix and match ranged weapons inside a squad, outside of exarchs and guardians. The former are simply buffed versions of the regular weapons, the latter are platforms -- but Guardians are easy to kill.

Since a fire dragon squad have meltas they're expensive by Eldar standards. So they have to be used for their intended purpose: Taking out vehicles and/or heavy infantry. To do otherwise is wasting their target priority and ensuring they probably wont earn back their points.
Dire Avengers are fantastic at killing rank and file troops, but are utterly useless in CC outside of a beefed up exarch.
Striking Scorpions are good at taking on hordes, but struggle against everything else.
And so on.

An Eldar player will deploy with these factors in mind and push towards a specific goal with each unit. When it wins it wins big, when it fails you're in deep trouble.

Shining Spears have their very specific role too: Taking out MEQ and monstrous creatures. Yes, having mass units with fortune is a tough nut to crack -- but the list is lacking all over because you opponent is spending a tremendous amount on a unit that's being used sub-optimally.

Also, I'm having a hard time understanding why your lasguns only had a 1/54 chance to kill a shining spear. It's just a 3+ with a reroll at T4.

I broke it down with a dice calculator.
30 shots.
Hitting on 4s: 15 hits
Wounding on 5s: 5 wounds
Saving on 3s: 3.33 saves
Rerolling sales: 2.22 saves
In 30 shots you're killing 1 shining spear, not 1/54.

A single shining spear is 25 pts. A single guardsman is 5 pts. They should be killing 5/1 on a pure points value. A max level Shining Spear squad is shooting 10 times, hitting 6.66 times and killing 5.56 guardsmen. It's essentially equal -- and they're sinking points in a farseer on a bike AND that's not factoring in rapid fire or orders.

In your math, you have the re-roll reducing the number of saves not increasing the number of saves.

But thank you for the tactica.

It is 1/54.
3/6x2/6x(2/6-(2/6x4/6))=1/54.

They're tough bastards, but far from unkillable. The view that the Eldar list was far from optimised is very true.

Eldar can make a nice casual game, but it requires the player behind them to be quite casual, and prepared to play 'nicely'.

However, even in competitive, I've found that the games are never uninteresting. However, my reg. opponents play sword wind, with a strong emphasis on up-and-close, so I'm biased.

My $0.02.

Shining spears are easy, especially with guard. \

Plasma/ignores cover order=dead. Shining spears cant hurt your tanks in shooting, and in combat they only do decent. Agaisnt guardsmen you laugh because it will take them a long time to eat through a big blob and then there potential is wasted.