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 Melissia wrote:
Well, at least you're thinking about the process you use. Perhaps you'll refine the process and make it better because if it.

Eh, I'm pretty pleased with it as is really. I guess it starts off from my assumption that most people without some kind of push are societal default. There's a reason for someone to be outside the norm. Assuming sci-fi/fantasy, you get the bonus of being able to create the societal defaults which can always be fun

Bows take a TON of upper body strength to use, meaning it does NOT reflect the supposed gender dimorphism that Sigvatr refers to.

And that's not even getting into the issue that really, physical strength in combat has its worth, but is probably less relevant than other factors. Namely training, equipment, experience, etc. Boudica and Sparticus both had armies consisting of a large number of women, and they did okay until Rome finally decided fooling around wasn't getting the job done. Lets be fair, women or no women, you're motley hacked together army is probably gonna get rolled by the Legion

 LordofHats wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well, at least you're thinking about the process you use. Perhaps you'll refine the process and make it better because if it.

Eh, I'm pretty pleased with it as is really. I guess it starts off from my assumption that most people without some kind of push are societal default. There's a reason for someone to be outside the norm. Assuming sci-fi/fantasy, you get the bonus of being able to create the societal defaults which can always be fun

Bows take a TON of upper body strength to use, meaning it does NOT reflect the supposed gender dimorphism that Sigvatr refers to.

And that's not even getting into the issue that really, physical strength in combat has its worth, but is probably less relevant than other factors. Namely training, equipment, experience, etc. Boudica and Sparticus both had armies consisting of a large number of women, and they did okay until Rome finally decided fooling around wasn't getting the job done. Lets be fair, women or no women, you're motley hacked together army is probably gonna get rolled by the Legion

But if it is superbly trained like a legion then its a different story.

Actually that would be cool. A game that focused on a medevil world where women rule with an iron fist. And men are sexualized.

Actually that I come to think of it that doesn't sound too appealing due to the fact that would be deemed sexist.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Ahem That is sexist.

Because women do it, because woman can't make games.

THAT IS SEXIST.

That is entirely sexist.

Selective reading is strong in this one.

I can do this too:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Because men do it, because man can't make games.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Name one game that was/is made by women.

Only by women? Do you have any idea of the number of people it takes to make a game? What about I ask you to name any AAA title made only by men?

Legend of Grimrock?

Legend of Grimrock isn't AAA though.

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

THAT IS SEXIST.

That is entirely sexist.

Name one game that was/is made by women. Even a failed kickstarter is good enough.
There are quite a few games. Diablo 3 reaper of souls was written by woman.

Selective reading is strong in this one.

I can do this too:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Because men do it, because man can't make games.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Name one game that was/is made by women.

Only by women? Do you have any idea of the number of people it takes to make a game? What about I ask you to name any AAA title made only by men?

Legend of Grimrock?

No, that is what you said. I didn't take your quote out of context. You said mobile games as well. But that is still a video game. You are insulting all female designers everywhere!


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 Sigvatr wrote:
Legend of Grimrock isn't AAA though.

Correct. Triple A games are usually multi-cultured as they are suppose to garner a larger audience.

 Ashiraya wrote:


While true, it is nowhere near the levels that it is often portrayed as. The difference between a man and a supersoldier is colossal compared to the difference between a man and a woman.

Oh, I never said so. Just stated that sexual dimorphism is a thing and the usual stats differences reflect upon that. Though, actually, I mostly think that this was the reason back in the days and people simply adapted to it ever since.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:


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 Sigvatr wrote:
Legend of Grimrock isn't AAA though.

Correct. Triple A games are usually multi-cultured as they are suppose to garner a larger audience.

Any good company employs the best available personnel regardless of gender, but rather for qualitfications. Opening up to both male and female employees largely increases your company's efficiency. Any "We only hire (wo)men!" suggestion is stupid as hell and doomed to begin with.

Well, AAA games might PURPORT to be multi-cultured anyway, but usually fail.

 Melissia wrote:


Bows take a TON of upper body strength to use, meaning it does NOT reflect the supposed gender dimorphism that Sigvatr refers to.

Jumping to wrong conclusions again. Bows profiting from DEX is different from the stat reflecting upon gender dimorphism. Not sure if you seriously doubt that the latter exists.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Legend of Grimrock?

Not AAA.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


While true, it is nowhere near the levels that it is often portrayed as. The difference between a man and a supersoldier is colossal compared to the difference between a man and a woman.

Oh, I never said so. Just stated that sexual dimorphism is a thing and the usual stats differences reflect upon that. Though, actually, I mostly think that this was the reason back in the days and people simply adapted to it ever since.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Legend of Grimrock isn't AAA though.

Correct. Triple A games are usually multi-cultured as they are suppose to garner a larger audience.

Any good company employs the best available personnel regardless of gender, but rather for qualitfications. Opening up to both male and female employees largely increases your company's efficiency. Any "We only hire (wo)men!" suggestion is stupid as hell and doomed to begin with.

Its often a thing they their best to do. To have multicultured teams actually adds to how the game is done and the issues it can touch on.

And that whole idea that most designers white males. Yeah that is starting fade. Sorta.

 Hordini wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There is nowhere near enough representation of female playable characters, and in many games (both old and, sadly, new) the ones that exist are shoehorned in to "agility" or "magic" roles, and some games (like Deus Ex) actually remove the option of having them where they had it previously. Most big-name-game protagonists end up being basically skinhead whiteguys with no personality, too, so it's not like there's anything gained by this bizarre practice.

Something that really to bug me when I thought about it is that we really don't have any actually blank slate characters. Like for example it is very hard to think of a single game character that doesn't have a designated gender.

Diablo III.

Who in Diablo 3? I know you can pick your gender and that isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about a character who just has no know gender. Like V from order of the stick. Are they a man, woman, something in between? We don't know.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Bows profiting from DEX is different from the stat reflecting upon gender dimorphism.

Asserting this does not make it true. You haven't really provided a reason why this is the case.

There's three assertions going on in this branch of the conversation:

"Bows take more strength than swords"
(this is something that is provably true, comparing the draw strength of bows vs the strength needed to swing a sword)

"Bows are typically assigned to DEX characters"
(again, for the most part this is provably true, it is a tradition amongst games)

"When women are assigned as DEX characters, this reflects gender dimorphism"
(you're arguing this is true)

The logical conclusion that comes from these three assertions is that, if all three of these are true, then women must therefor be physically stronger than men. Since the first two assertions are provably true, the assertion that is in question is number three.

Tales from Space: Mutant Blobs attack.

Hah! I win.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well, at least you're thinking about the process you use. Perhaps you'll refine the process and make it better because if it.

Eh, I'm pretty pleased with it as is really. I guess it starts off from my assumption that most people without some kind of push are societal default. There's a reason for someone to be outside the norm. Assuming sci-fi/fantasy, you get the bonus of being able to create the societal defaults which can always be fun

Bows take a TON of upper body strength to use, meaning it does NOT reflect the supposed gender dimorphism that Sigvatr refers to.

And that's not even getting into the issue that really, physical strength in combat has its worth, but is probably less relevant than other factors. Namely training, equipment, experience, etc. Boudica and Sparticus both had armies consisting of a large number of women, and they did okay until Rome finally decided fooling around wasn't getting the job done. Lets be fair, women or no women, you're motley hacked together army is probably gonna get rolled by the Legion

But if it is superbly trained like a legion then its a different story.

Actually that would be cool. A game that focused on a medevil world where women rule with an iron fist. And men are sexualized.

Actually that I come to think of it that doesn't sound too appealing due to the fact that would be deemed sexist.

You are correct. It is sexist. Do you know why it is sexist?

 Melissia wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Bows profiting from DEX is different from the stat reflecting upon gender dimorphism.

Asserting this does not make it true. You haven't really provided a reason why this is the case.

Yep, because you made the assertion. I talked about STR/CON.

Take one step at a time and you'll stop falling over your own feet.


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 Chongara wrote:

Actually that would be cool. A game that focused on a medevil world where women rule with an iron fist. And men are sexualized.

That wouldn't be a medieval world...

I don't know if that's sexist in the way you're thinking of it (though I would agree it strikes me as sexist, but probably for different reasons), but the reason that bothers me is because it sounds like some kind of extremist separatist-feminist strawman.


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 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep, because you made the assertion. I talked about STR/CON.

No you didn't just say that.

You supported the idea that women are Dex/Magic.

 Chongara wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Well, at least you're thinking about the process you use. Perhaps you'll refine the process and make it better because if it.

Eh, I'm pretty pleased with it as is really. I guess it starts off from my assumption that most people without some kind of push are societal default. There's a reason for someone to be outside the norm. Assuming sci-fi/fantasy, you get the bonus of being able to create the societal defaults which can always be fun

Bows take a TON of upper body strength to use, meaning it does NOT reflect the supposed gender dimorphism that Sigvatr refers to.

And that's not even getting into the issue that really, physical strength in combat has its worth, but is probably less relevant than other factors. Namely training, equipment, experience, etc. Boudica and Sparticus both had armies consisting of a large number of women, and they did okay until Rome finally decided fooling around wasn't getting the job done. Lets be fair, women or no women, you're motley hacked together army is probably gonna get rolled by the Legion

But if it is superbly trained like a legion then its a different story.

Actually that would be cool. A game that focused on a medevil world where women rule with an iron fist. And men are sexualized.

Actually that I come to think of it that doesn't sound too appealing due to the fact that would be deemed sexist.

You are correct. It is sexist. Do you know why it is sexist?

Probably because of either the males are put into an area.

Or that females wouldn't do something else. Currently I am class. And don't really care as much.

 Melissia wrote:

 Delephont wrote:
I'm being catered for by accident (I'm male, enjoying a male devised product), I realise others are not catered for, also by accident (females, not enjoying a male devised product). I can see that those not catered for, could be catered for (females), if they devised their own product rather than constantly telling me the product I enjoy (as a male) is wrong.

So men don't have to work for it-- you can just sit there and expect games to be made for you, no effort involved-- but you expect women to have to put out a ton of effort even as women are continually ignored by the big name producers, in order to have something catered to us?

That's really entitled still. You think you should have special privileges that other people shouldn't have, by nature of something which you born with and did not work to get.

At least, that is how you have been expressing yourself. Do you understand where this is coming from? I'm not asking to be treated differently, I'm asking to be treated the same as you are-- to get games I'd like to spend my hard-earned money on. Oftentimes, those games simply don't materialize, and without me speaking out, they probably never will. And when women DO make games, they aren't given the same level of attention by producers a when men do it, anyway, so your request just doesn't work.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. People make games, I don't have any influence on those games, apart from tail end funding when I buy them. Those games, through no input from me (directly) objectify women. I'm a man, again, through no design of my own, and I like women. Because I make a big distinction between fact and fiction, I'm not offended by the objectification of women in computer games, because, putting it bluntly, it corresponds to my own sordid fantasies.....being a man! So where's the "entitlement" if 99% of the outcome is purely accidental.

If I have special privileges due to an accident of birth, I would suggest the "issue" lies with those offering the privilege, not the recipient. That said, computer games could be labeled as a form of artistic expression, do any of us have a RIGHT to demand that artists caster for our particular needs? Just because something exists doesn't mean it HAS to cater for every facet of society! Great if it does, but what does?

People often talk about how everything should be inclusive, yet at the same time people talk about valuing individuality....how can you have both? Religion is very inclusive, and comes nowhere near accepting individuality, look at the middle east, look at what religion tries to do with anyone who isn't a monogamous heterosexual........perhaps its time to realise that right now, the video games industry is not designed to cater for females, just like the oil and gas industry isn't designed to cater for environmental sustainability...... It doesn't have to be that way, but it is! Change will ONLY come if people stop supporting the current incarnation and actively work to create a new one.....

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:



Name one game that was/is made by women. Even a failed kickstarter is good enough.

 Delephont wrote:
So where's the "entitlement" if 99% of the outcome is purely accidental.

The entitlement is the assertion that anyone who doesn't fit your "straight white male" category should either just shut up and enjoy the games catered to you, or go and make their own games-- things which you do not have to do. Basically, you asserted (And continue to assert) that you should get the benefits of society without working for them, while anyone who is different from you should have to work for those same benefits.

nomotog wrote:

Who in Diablo 3? I know you can pick your gender and that isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about a character who just has no know gender. Like V from order of the stick. Are they a man, woman, something in between? We don't know.

Okay, Asteroids. What gender is the ship from Asteroids.

 Melissia wrote:

 Delephont wrote:
So where's the "entitlement" if 99% of the outcome is purely accidental.

The entitlement is the assertion that anyone who doesn't fit your "straight white male" category should either just shut up and enjoy the games catered to you, or go and make their own games-- things which you do not have to do. Basically, you asserted (And continue to assert) that you should get the benefits of society without working for them, while anyone who is different from you should have to work for those same benefits.

Either you genuinely don't understand, or you're being willfully ignorant.

Everything has a target market, for computer games the target market is "straight white males", probably because the product is developed by " straight white males". Now, I keep hearing about how hard it is for "others" to do their own thing, well, tough......why should people who don't fit into the target market feel they deserve any consideration? So Porsche should change their design of the 911 because mothers with 6 kids can't currently use them?? Newsflash they were never designed to cater to that demographic!

In reality, there is nothing stopping other "non straight white males" developing their own products. So what if the major players have billions of dollars to play with, why does that somehow detract from an independent developer being able to cater for the needs of their target market, if the product is good, and there's a market, it will sell....end of!

If people are too lazy, or disenchanted to get off their asses and cater for themselves, why should anyone else. If straight white males are creating an artistic outlet for there collective sexual fantasy, then great, good for them! If you can enjoy that as well (assuming you're a female) hey have at it......if not, well, sad day for you......there's the keyboard, there's the code, get developing.

 daedalus wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Who in Diablo 3? I know you can pick your gender and that isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about a character who just has no know gender. Like V from order of the stick. Are they a man, woman, something in between? We don't know.

Okay, Asteroids. What gender is the ship from Asteroids.

That counts. My thought is more why doesn't it happen more often. There are a lot of games, particularly FPS, that have a character who is meant to be you and they have very low characterization. They often don't even have a real name, just a code or nick name. They almost always have a gender though. I think you could just level these self insert characters genderless.

 Delephont wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Delephont wrote:
So where's the "entitlement" if 99% of the outcome is purely accidental.

The entitlement is the assertion that anyone who doesn't fit your "straight white male" category should either just shut up and enjoy the games catered to you, or go and make their own games-- things which you do not have to do. Basically, you asserted (And continue to assert) that you should get the benefits of society without working for them, while anyone who is different from you should have to work for those same benefits.

Either you genuinely don't understand, or you're being willfully ignorant.

Everything has a target market, for computer games the target market is "straight white males", probably because the product is developed by " straight white males". Now, I keep hearing about how hard it is for "others" to do their own thing, well, tough......why should people who don't fit into the target market feel they deserve any consideration? So Porsche should change their design of the 911 because mothers with 6 kids can't currently use them?? Newsflash they were never designed to cater to that demographic!

In reality, there is nothing stopping other "non straight white males" developing their own products. So what if the major players have billions of dollars to play with, why does that somehow detract from an independent developer being able to cater for the needs of their target market, if the product is good, and there's a market, it will sell....end of!

If people are too lazy, or disenchanted to get off their asses and cater for themselves, why should anyone else. If straight white males are creating an artistic outlet for there collective sexual fantasy, then great, good for them! If you can enjoy that as well (assuming you're a female) hey have at it......if not, well, sad day for you......there's the keyboard, there's the code, get developing.

Developers can make a game for whatever demo they want. Bu I think the point is that that demographic you mentioned is not representative of the majority of gamers. And those gamers are telling the market they want change.

 daedalus wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Who in Diablo 3? I know you can pick your gender and that isn't what I was talking about. I was talking about a character who just has no know gender. Like V from order of the stick. Are they a man, woman, something in between? We don't know.

Okay, Asteroids. What gender is the ship from Asteroids.

What is the gender in many games really. I mean most games like that we don't know.

My problems with how women are treated with games:

1) female protagonists; despite the popularity of Samus Aran and Lara Croft among a "Mostly Male Dominated Market" developers are told that they can't make a game with a female protagonist because they don't sell. They then take games with female protagonists and refuse to market them, making them.... not sell. Yet when Lara was advertised with New Raider, she sold a staggering amount of copies (Just because it wasn't "Successful" enough due to outrageous sales figure expectations doesn't mean it didn't sell a ton of copies).

2) Lack of "The Other Side"; Where is the Duchess Nukem? Where are the male FF characters ( )? Nobody wants Duke Nukem to go away (Though there are plenty who want him back), because he doesn't need to, but the other side would be nice to see once in a while.

3) We need some sillier female stories, as well as some more serious female stories, or actually just more female stories; Where is the tale of sisterly love? Of the Hero of The Ages forgetting his Sack Lunch and it's your job as his mom to track him down and give it to him? We have games where it's a father losing a child, what about a mother?

4) It would be really nice if female characters weren't just relegated to "Damsel in Distress" or "Bad Bitch". I want more Disney Hercules Megs ("I'm a Damsel, I'm in Distress, I can handle it; have a nice day ")

Edit: Stuff like "Not So Secretly A Princess gets Kidnapped and Protagonist goes out to save her, and while he's gone NSSAP comes back after freeing herself and wonders where the hell the Protagonist went off to" would be a nice play on the formula.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Developers can make a game for whatever demo they want. Bu I think the point is that that demographic you mentioned is not representative of the majority of gamers. And those gamers are telling the market they want change.

It's very representative for certain genres/platforms. The idea that the majority of, for example, PC strategy game fans in this country aren't white and male is kind of out there, really.

 Seaward wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
Developers can make a game for whatever demo they want. Bu I think the point is that that demographic you mentioned is not representative of the majority of gamers. And those gamers are telling the market they want change.

It's very representative for certain genres/platforms. The idea that the majority of, for example, PC strategy game fans in this country aren't white and male is kind of out there, really.

Maybe. But more and more games and media are not being made for just Americans. Starcraft (unless you don't include RTS as strategy) extremely popular in South Korea. Or LoL. Heck look at the demographic for fighting games. If EVO is representative of the American fighting game demographic, it is changing.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Maybe. But more and more games and media are not being made for just Americans. Starcraft (unless you don't include RTS as strategy) extremely popular in South Korea. Or LoL. Heck look at the demographic for fighting games. If EVO is representative of the American fighting game demographic, it is changing.

I would say almost no games are being made exclusively for Americans anymore, if they ever were.

But as we discussed in the recently-locked thread regarding Smite's representation of Chinese gods, the demand out of the Asian market isn't for more representation, it's for more blonde Caucasian sex kittens.

Asherian Command wrote:
No, that is what you said. I didn't take your quote out of context. You said mobile games as well. But that is still a video game. You are insulting all female designers everywhere!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Legend of Grimrock isn't AAA though.

Correct. Triple A games are usually multi-cultured as they are suppose to garner a larger audience.

Dude you took out a part of a sentense which alters it's meaning entirely. Here is the my reply to melissa's post.

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And when women DO make games, they aren't given the same level of attention by producers a when men do it, anyway, so your request just doesn't work.

The reason why women don't get attention from publishers is because women make gakky mobile games. Nobody is interested in gakky mobile games.

At this point people should just completely ingnore everything you say because you take stuff out of context, make false accusations and rile people up because of that.

The point of asking for a game which is made by women was to find out that women moke something other than mobile games.

I don't care if the dev has men as long as over 50% is female. Game can still be in developent or be a failed crowdfunding project (kickstater, indiegogo etc.)

Just for those who are interested. Witcher 2 was made men. The only woman in CDPR is/was some lady in pr department.