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Yes, MWHistorian and Azreal13, you pretty much nailed it: way out of balance lists increasing odds of being stomped and so much random dice rolls taking away most tactical / planned outcomes.

Love the X-wing example, was playing it recently with my kids and we all had a great time. Most things happened as we intended, the feeling of control was quite uplifting.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
GW despite what complainers think, don't hate us. They don't set out to make us nerd rage. They don't have a vendetta against the player base. They are trying to keep the game fresh. Innovation isn't always well received but at least they're freaking trying.

They're trying, or they're not trying. They're trying to make it all better, or they're trying to milk the fanbase before it dries. Who knows. For me it looks like a chaos stage that can create a new order or plummet into nothingness, also milking with selling rules that, adding insult to injury, are mediocore at best.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
GW despite what complainers think, don't hate us. They don't set out to make us nerd rage. They don't have a vendetta against the player base. They are trying to keep the game fresh. Innovation isn't always well received but at least they're freaking trying.

GW is responsible for 3 out of 4 shops closing in my area and 1 moving to CCG and not supporting GW stuff. I have no place to play. This is more then hate. It is like selling someone a boat and then stealing all water in his country.

Heh that is a funny analogy. My shop seems to show the back to GW too and if the latter opened somewhere close, that could be understandable, still a dick move but at least having some logic behind. But no its in Warsaw hundreds of kilometers of distance and they poison a shop with their dumb policies and it is going to cost them in customers.

On topic, I played regularly during 5th but since 6th dropped, I played a few games only and 7th I haven't yet read, reading summaries was enough to conclude that it is a waste of time because the ruleset is not even a bit more tactical, it lacks proper reactive fire mechanic that would reduce alpha strike and stop units free roaming the map in the shooting game. Its also still cinematic narrative look out sir which stink in a wargame, the narrative should "forge" itself through good rules and meaningful decisions. Atm Im retreating to home play only, writing my own rules and if those end up crap, moving to Epic or some conversion or even 5th edition as I have only a single flyer that is ork bommer for laughs. Also Im selling my more expensive armies ie FW nurgle to fund myself a new more badass PC and give even less crap about it all.

But when it comes to direction of the game, I am not exactly against it. Since I accepted that the tighter game where I can control the environment is gone, I kind of like the possibilities ie mechwarrior esqe lance of knights facing a pure flyer wing etc but a game like that requires a tight ruleset and a lot of effort to make it work, something that GW seems allergic to. Im not agains LoW in regular games but they should fire only every second turn or sth, to limit them and show that firing a d weapon is not a bolter shot. Im not aganst unbound as I cant see why mecha spam, all mawlock mining party, pure panzer division or biker army shouldnt exist but you need a spam tax for that ie 10% for each same codex entry that is already on the list, take your sixth riptide now hehe (that would still require balanced point costs so hm erm not really now at all). I am not aganst mixing skirmisch mechanics with titans on the table it makes the game kind of unique, it might be irritating in rts computer games (like a modded men of war vietnam, instead of few guys you get multiple squads and you simply dont have time to properly utilise single soldiers potential) but here I can spend half an hour more on the game .Problem is you need to make all that micromanagement tacticaly meaningful but no I still have to shoot my heavy weapon at the same target that my bolters fire at and making a formation for cc makes little sense.

So Im watching the game carefuly, in the meantime not buying codieces that replaced art for particular units with more pictures of cartoonish painted minis, so we have even more pictures of minis. Not buying minis themselves unless plastic greater daemons new tyranid beasts or starter sets to nurglify. Not throwing on dumb random tables and calling out guys for eleventy billion duels because grimdark war is all about duels. Hope they will make a balanced and tactical ruleset one day, hope is a fool's mother though they say here. Anyway, waiting for 8th.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Heh that is a funny analogy. My shop seems to show the back to GW too and if the latter opened somewhere close, that could be understandable, still a dick move but at least having some logic behind. But no its in Warsaw hundreds of kilometers of distance and they poison a shop with their dumb policies and it is going to cost them in customers.

It may be less of a dick move than you realise. GW has some pretty stringent/nasty trade terms to buy from them (as a shop). It may be a simple case of they can't afford to stock gw and still run any sort of successful business. Remember GW actively competes with the independant retailers it sells to, and mention of them in any given board report is generally not favourable.

No I meant GWs Polish branch dick move to undercut an flgs hundreds kilometers away, and GW poisoning flgs with their policies. Writing fail on my part.

Ah, k. Yeah, its hard to fathom sometimes why they do what they do. I still maintain that they could outcompete video games for kids if they did things right. Just imagine that for a minute, outcompeting video games.

C'est la vie.

 Torga_DW wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Heh that is a funny analogy. My shop seems to show the back to GW too and if the latter opened somewhere close, that could be understandable, still a dick move but at least having some logic behind. But no its in Warsaw hundreds of kilometers of distance and they poison a shop with their dumb policies and it is going to cost them in customers.

It may be less of a dick move than you realise. GW has some pretty stringent/nasty trade terms to buy from them (as a shop). It may be a simple case of they can't afford to stock gw and still run any sort of successful business. Remember GW actively competes with the independant retailers it sells to, and mention of them in any given board report is generally not favourable.

Frankly, I don't think that GW is much competition for their FLGS retailers. First of all, and perhaps most importantly, price: every single FLGS in my area sells product at a discount from list -- anywhere from 10% all the way to 25%-30%, with the median being ~ 20%. For instance, a $60 codex will run $50; a $100 rules set can be had for $75. Also, most of the FLGS will do a deal if I dicker a little bit when I buy a lot of stuff. If I'm getting $500+, I can usually get better than 30% off of everything.

Also, there are many clearance items which can be great. Today, for example, I bought 2 boxes of 6 Eldar Fire Dragons for $30 Canadian (GW price is $60 Canadian), because Finecast wasn't moving for the FLGS. I've bought most of my LoTR and Hobbit miniatures for more than 50% discount when they are on clearance.

Second, almost all FLGS have much more in the way of hobbying supplies. Even the crappiest FLGS in my area, that has mostly Citadel stuff, still carries P3 supplies, and a few Army Painter primers, and some old GW items that are actually useful (like emery boards). The best one has TONS and TONS of hobby stuff. Airbrushes, tools, many brands of paint, and of course a store full of non-GW miniatures that are also fun to look at and collect

However, the GW store is kind of neat to visit. They have a LOT of GW product in stock, so I can look at boxes of things that aren't normally stocked at my stores, like RoB boards, all of the super-heavies, and many odd-ball units that are not very popular. I guess if you really want something NOW, you could go there and just walk out the door with the unit (I would rather wait 1 week and get it 20%+ off, but that's just me ). The employee at the GW store told me that they stock about 40% of the current products.

The GW store employee was also kind of a dick (to put it quite kindly), and I wouldn't buy product from him if he had the best price in town, but that's a whole other story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Ah, k. Yeah, its hard to fathom sometimes why they do what they do. I still maintain that they could outcompete video games for kids if they did things right. Just imagine that for a minute, outcompeting video games.

C'est la vie.

I doubt it. Most kids don't have the funds to play 40k at today's prices... even at HALF of today's prices. And, video games give instant gratification, fit an attention deficit crowd better, and has a MUCH better matchmaking system than tabletop miniatures that allows you to play WAAC without being perceived as an antisocial jerk.

Talys wrote:
Frankly, I don't think that GW is much competition for their FLGS retailers. First of all, and perhaps most importantly, price: every single FLGS in my area sells product at a discount from list -- anywhere from 10% all the way to 25%-30%, with the median being ~ 20%. For instance, a $60 codex will run $50; a $100 rules set can be had for $75. Also, most of the FLGS will do a deal if I dicker a little bit when I buy a lot of stuff. If I'm getting $500+, I can usually get better than 30% off of everything.

Also, there are many clearance items which can be great. Today, for example, I bought 2 boxes of 6 Eldar Fire Dragons for $30 Canadian (GW price is $60 Canadian), because Finecast wasn't moving for the FLGS. I've bought most of my LoTR and Hobbit miniatures for more than 50% discount when they are on clearance.

Second, almost all FLGS have much more in the way of hobbying supplies. Even the crappiest FLGS in my area, that has mostly Citadel stuff, still carries P3 supplies, and a few Army Painter primers, and some old GW items that are actually useful (like emery boards). The best one has TONS and TONS of hobby stuff. Airbrushes, tools, many brands of paint, and of course a store full of non-GW miniatures that are also fun to look at and collect

Its a question of margins. GW has already made their money when they sell to the indy. The indy has to offer incentive to buy (like offering discounts) while still meeting expenses. Then gw tries to compete with them via their online store (of which more and more product is moving to direct only). Thats why the trade terms are such a killer, gw is competing with the stores it sells its products to.

Talys wrote:
I doubt it. Most kids don't have the funds to play 40k at today's prices... even at HALF of today's prices. And, video games give instant gratification, fit an attention deficit crowd better, and has a MUCH better matchmaking system than tabletop miniatures that allows you to play WAAC without being perceived as an antisocial jerk.

Yes.... thats the problem. They have all the equipment to mass produce and sell cheaply, yet they sell low volumes at boutique prices. Expenses much. As for video games - a pvp game is a pvp game. Video games work enough or they don't, there's no misinterpreting the rules or arguing them, something either works for you so you do it or else you get the blue screen of doom.

Frankly, I don't think that GW is much competition for their FLGS retailers. First of all, and perhaps most importantly, price: every single FLGS in my area sells product at a discount from list -- anywhere from 10% all the way to 25%-30%, with the median being ~ 20%. For instance, a $60 codex will run $50; a $100 rules set can be had for $75. Also, most of the FLGS will do a deal if I dicker a little bit when I buy a lot of stuff. If I'm getting $500+, I can usually get better than 30% off of everything.

That is cool for you. But in Poland they made every B&M store that wants to sell their models sign a contract that they won't be undercuting the price of the GW store in Warsaw . Which is the only GW store in the whole country. I can't even imagine why they did that. Even if they wanted to take the big FLGS stores out of buissness,where do they think people are going to play their game? And why they are doing this in cities where there is no GW store is beyond me. If no shop will support the game, then there will be no new players, and no new players means smalle sales. It is as if they had absolutly no idea how the table top market works in other countries then UK. And it isn't hard to check how it does, they already have the date from shops and what they ordered in years past. And it doesn't require any extra cash on research to find out that here good stuff sells bad and bad stuff doesn't sell at all. So if they leave FLGS with bad stuff and limit the good stuff, to their online store and ordering to their one per country store in Warsaw, they just kill the market.

It is as if they didn't want more money.

Makumba wrote:

Frankly, I don't think that GW is much competition for their FLGS retailers. First of all, and perhaps most importantly, price: every single FLGS in my area sells product at a discount from list -- anywhere from 10% all the way to 25%-30%, with the median being ~ 20%. For instance, a $60 codex will run $50; a $100 rules set can be had for $75. Also, most of the FLGS will do a deal if I dicker a little bit when I buy a lot of stuff. If I'm getting $500+, I can usually get better than 30% off of everything.

That is cool for you. But in Poland they made every B&M store that wants to sell their models sign a contract that they won't be undercuting the price of the GW store in Warsaw . Which is the only GW store in the whole country. I can't even imagine why they did that. Even if they wanted to take the big FLGS stores out of buissness,where do they think people are going to play their game? And why they are doing this in cities where there is no GW store is beyond me. If no shop will support the game, then there will be no new players, and no new players means smalle sales. It is as if they had absolutly no idea how the table top market works in other countries then UK. And it isn't hard to check how it does, they already have the date from shops and what they ordered in years past. And it doesn't require any extra cash on research to find out that here good stuff sells bad and bad stuff doesn't sell at all. So if they leave FLGS with bad stuff and limit the good stuff, to their online store and ordering to their one per country store in Warsaw, they just kill the market.

It is as if they didn't want more money.

Wow, sorry to hear that. I had no idea in Poland, stores had to sell at list. How awful.

I don't know how it is in Poland, but our FLGS can order everything that the GW store can sell, and sells the new releases on the same day as GW (they physically get them a couple days early, and some of them screw up and sell hard releases early). Our stores can sell at any price they want to, and not including Games Workshop, there are about 5 or 6 stores that sell GW product.

What i like about geedubs
their YT channel, i actually improved my painting skills from utter crap to pretty decent wirh their tutorials.
Toned down power levels in new codexes (yeah, eldar and Tau have an even more upperhand than before, but they will get slapped with nerfhammer soon)
Deals(atleast some of them) actually save 10ish pounds
Epic models Zhufor, Helbrecht, Lysander, Kharn....
what i don't like:
prices (on the other hand i know people are gonna hate me, but Warmahordes, Which DOES have smaller battle size than average game of 40k is IMO equally expensive to start, since no one is forbiding you to play 500 pts games of 40k, which can actually get enjoyable, and there is no need to buy truckloads of models in your first shopping , altough to be fair the prices COULD BE a wee bit lower-15% would seem ideal to me)
lords of war- if there were less guys who bring them without warning every game, it would be OK, and perhaps more VP if you destroy said LoW(note: i mean super heavy vehicles, LoWs like Kaldor Draigo are OK to me)
Removing characters which didn't have models ( doom of malantai, Grand master Mordrak (LOVE his fluff)
some armies (sisters of battle, and to a lesser extent, iron hands) should get MORE options to kitbash and convert
So in conusion: i like the way they are going, but i will be really happy when eldar get toned down wave serpents i.e. when the process they started with rebalancing gameplay gets finished, when top dog armies get toned down

I find the discussion of trade terms interesting... I was talking to the owner of my FLGS a few days ago about things in general. When they opened he wanted to stock GW products and they refused to allow him because there was another game store within a few miles that also stocked Warhammer products. He didn't go into more details, just that they refused to allow him to stock their products for some reason or another.

So instead, he got into Warmachine/Hordes and told GW to take a hike. Now that he moved to a bigger store, GW has been trying to get him to stock their stuff again and he's told them in no uncertain terms no way in hell will he stock anything of theirs. I don't even think he would allow people to play 40k on his gaming tables (not 100% sure about that one as that seems a bit extreme).

I could not be happier as I just got into Warmahordes recently and the store I had been frequenting misled me about the interest there (and has recently been shut down) and the only other store that had a big community was an hour away. So GW shot themselves in the foot and now the store has a budding community of Warmachine players instead of 40k players.