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 insaniak wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:
Telling a player without a whole ton of models to lose those 1-2 points could mean losing some crucial upgrade (klaw on a Warboss for example), or even an entire unit depending on what they have.

But that's entirely the point.

The points limit limits what you can fit into your army. That's a totally intentional side-effect of the points system. If you need to move stuff around or drop stuff in order to fit that extra power klaw in, or you just can't make it fit because you absolutely need to have some other option in there instead, well, that's the points system working as intended.

This reminds me of how 5th edition was the best example of why courteous players always obeyed the points limit, when we had a thread in the army list sub forum where somebody shrilly complained to people pointing out his 1.5k or whatever list was over the limit, "but it HAS to X points over. The only thing I can drop is that tenth tac marine, and if I do that, I don't get the free flamer and... (multi-melta? Missile launcher?) I forget what the free heavy weapon upgrade was.'

I think that everyone here has their opinion as to whether they allow grace points or not. Everyone's opinion on the matter is an individual decision. Some folks view it to be as a legally binding verbal agreement. Other folks view it as a more open negotiation. In the end, it all turns out to be a verbal agreement between two opposing parties.

I personally make each and every list to the agreed points value. I take it as a matter of pride of being able to discern the units that I will need for the upcoming battle. With that being said, I do allow for grace points to allow other players the ability to expand their growing collection withouut having to sacrifice their style of play. I do not condemn those folks who choose not to allow grace points.

I would also state that I prefer to play WYSIWYG. Yet, I also recognize that some folks can not do a complete list using WYSIWYG. Rarely does GW make codexes, that allow for a competant list without a degree in accounting, especially so if your club plays WYSIWYG.

So in turn, I either let the opponent have a small 5 point grace window for WYSIWYG or let them proxy for the exact amount. I think that is the compromise that suits the best of both worlds.

 morganfreeman wrote:
I don't have a problem with it, and that's because people pay tons of money to play this game. A 2,000 point army is usually going to cost at least 1,000$ - that's a pretty penny just to play a game.

Not sure how is that an argument, to be honest. Unless it was some rhetorical statement.

 morganfreeman wrote:
People talk about "just switch something around" but it's often not that simple. If they're not a couple points over because of a melta-bomb, but because they crammed another unit in there?

I know I might sound a bit rude, but one really should think and use their brain while building a list. Using common sense - if that unit doesn't fit points-wise in your army at this bracket, then either it's the army's concept that's not fitting or that unit not being suitable for this point bracket. If you really need that one, then replace some other unit with another one. Imho if you can't squeeze it in legally, you should just drop it or switch to higher point bracket. Or -start- with that unit and build around it.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Telling a player without a whole ton of models to lose those 1-2 points could mean losing some crucial upgrade (klaw on a Warboss for example), or even an entire unit depending on what they have. Lots of players don't have the funds to get the spare models to make it as simple as "turn that lascannon into a missle-launcher", they might just have to take the entire devastator unit out and be at a huge disadvantage.

As I said - it can be worked around by weapon/equipment swaps - take one skorcha/big shoota less, don't get the upgraded gun on that vehicle or do it another way and remove one model but fill the points with gear. OR just admit that it can't legally work in this bracket. That happens. In WarmaHordes the Trollblood brick tactic doesn't play under 35pts because it's support-heavy. In 40k a mech vet Guard army won't work below 1000pts, to give an example that 40k players can relate to. As for models - I'd rather let someone proxy a rocket launcher with one of the lascan guys rather than have him insist on me dealing with that he couldn't bother thinking harder to make a legal list.

 morganfreeman wrote:
So, in short, I've no problem with people going slightly over, I'll generally just attribute it to being the best they can do. If I lose a game because of a 1-20 point disadvantage, then I simply could've won via playing better or (and this is much less likely) the dice gods really showed me what for.

But then again why would you justify their screw-up with that instead of taking the exact same mindset you just presented and say "If they lose a game because of a 1-20 point disadvantage, then they simply could've won via playing better despite lacking those few odd points as they could be compensated with effort". Not to mention paying more attention at the army building step.

To be honest I am fairly sure that if anyone came up with an example of an army that has to be over the points because there are no options there would be at least one good proposition as to how they could fix it. That's why noone of the 'defenders' brings any examples in this thread, they know it's just a matter of thinking a bit harder instead of mashing together a list on your knee on the way to the store.

I'll be boring and say for me it depends.

In a friendly setting I wouldn't mind at all if someone were a few points off as it "only" changes my chance of winning the game, not how fun it is to play. After all, who wouldn't rather spend time at the gaming table than at the desk doing math...

In a tournament on the other hand, part of the challenge is to come up with a hard list given certain limitations. In this setting going even a point over budget would be unacceptable.

How is the limiting factor (on your army list) of the points any less important than other limiting factors?

How about the limits of the FOC (which, I'll admit, has become less and less relevant) or the limits of your movement or the limits on how many times you can shoot?

"I am going to move my Assault Squad 7". I mean its just an inch. Don't be such a TFG"

 morganfreeman wrote:
People talk about "just switch something around" but it's often not that simple. If they're not a couple points over because of a melta-bomb, but because they crammed another unit in there?

In which case, perhaps they shouldn't have crammed an extra unit in?

 morganfreeman wrote:
Telling a player without a whole ton of models to lose those 1-2 points could mean losing some crucial upgrade (klaw on a Warboss for example), or even an entire unit depending on what they have.

You mean like the unit they added when they didn't have the points for said unit?

 morganfreeman wrote:
Lots of players don't have the funds to get the spare models to make it as simple as "turn that lascannon into a missle-launcher", they might just have to take the entire devastator unit out and be at a huge disadvantage.

Eh? Who cares whether they have the right model or not?

"Ok, just count that lascannon as a missile launcher for this game"

There, problem solved.

 goblinking201 wrote:
My group has a law of 7 points over, as long as a single upgrade does not do it.

So how exactly do you know where these 7 pts have come from?

In general no, always better to be under then over, i have been flexible with newer players though, who do not have a big enough army yet to switch in and out units for different battles to get as close as possible to the points limit.

Nah, I would rather be 3 pts under than have to ask my opponent if it was ok if I were 3 pts over. Just doesn't seem classy to me.

It's just as easy to be under points than over points. So no, I don't allow my player to be over in points. The limit is the limit. Life is full of hard decisions and choices. Not that 40K, a game of little toy soldiers, should ever be used as a metaphor for real life...

Can go over by no more than 5 points, and must let your opponent know in advance so he/she can add 5 points worth of wargear to their list of they so choose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:


Eh? Who cares whether they have the right model or not?

"Ok, just count that lascannon as a missile launcher for this game"

There, problem solved.

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but WYSIWYG!

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Can go over by no more than 5 points, and must let your opponent know in advance so he/she can add 5 points worth of wargear to their list of they so choose.

Or, you know, just drop those 5pts. It's really not that difficult and I fail to see why your opponent should accomadate you going over.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Can go over by no more than 5 points, and must let your opponent know in advance so he/she can add 5 points worth of wargear to their list of they so choose.

Or, you know, just drop those 5pts. It's really not that difficult and I fail to see why your opponent should accomadate you going over.

Ok...? That would be your take on it. I was answering the question. Could care only slightly less how you would do it if you were me.

I used to allow grace points, but someone on this forum said something that stuck with me a while ago.

It was something along the line of:
If that upgrade which takes you 1 point over the limit really 'doesn't make that much of a difference', why not just drop it and play an army that is within our agreed points limit.