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 MordorMiniatures wrote:
We will allow 20-50 points (On 2000 point games)

I'm not trying to be facetious or troll you or other folks that play in groups with this mechanic, but seriously -- why not just make the point limit 2050? Then both sides could be "over" the same amount? Is it that you're afraid of point creep? I mean, then that people will try to play with 2100, etc.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I can't see getting bent out of shape over a few points, especially if you're ok with your opponent being under by a much larger margin than you're ok with them being over.

They're not at all the same thing.

It's the player's own choice to write a list that uses less points than they have available. But given that the points limit is the maximum number of points you have to spend, the moment you go over you have broken a rule.


If you 'can't see getting bent out of shape over a few points', well, that applies both ways. It always seems in these discussions like a large number of people think that a few points being 'unimportant' should automatically mean that it should be ok to go over. If those few points are so unimportant, why can't you just remove them from your list?

You're just worried about yourself being at a disadvantage, no matter how slight.

Or you're interested in playing a game using the rules you both agreed to at the beginning...

I can't imagine that someone could think that less than a half of one percent disadvantage in points would make or break a game which has many random factors and isn't super balanced anyway.

So why not just remove that less than a half of one percent from the list, and save everybody the argument?

It's the first, most basic rule that is stated before the game even starts. If my opponentcan't comply with the first rule of the game what hope do I have that he will comply with any of the other rules.

If it was a new player I might say yeah whatever, but really it's as easy as dropping a single upgrade or removing one guy from a squad.

I find it more than a little annoying when people arrive with lists that are over the point limit.

Yes, I'm sure you don't want to drop that 5pt upgrade. Well, guess what, there were upgrades I didn't want to drop either.

But I did drop them to keep to the point limit, and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the same courtesy.

Depends on whether they had prepared the list earlier or not. If it was just a pick up game and they had thrown the list together in front of me I would be cool with up to 4 points over (5 point upgrades are so common and easy to drop) as I'd rather just play the game than wait for them to sort out their army.
But if they had a prewritten list I would want to be on the points limit or under.

We play 2500 point games. I often make 2000 or 2250 point lists to try and make the game more competitive. However, I don't feel bad if I run less than 100 points over.

If they run over, I'm not going to allow it, neither does our club.

For myself, I am almost OCD Levels of making sure I reach the exact points.
If my opponent though is a few points over I am usually ok with it as long at it is within a few points [1-3%].
We also tend to play 2k, so 2-6 points is not that bad.

Generally 3 points, as any more can be remedied by dropping upgrades. This is strictly when we play in my basement, though. I would never go to a LGS expecting a couple free points.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I can't see getting bent out of shape over a few points, especially if you're ok with your opponent being under by a much larger margin than you're ok with them being over.

Awesome. Since you're fine with me moving my tac marines 5.5 inches in the movement phase, you're not going to mind me moving them 6.5 either.

It's called a limit for a reason. I don't go over it, and I expect my opponents to extend me the same courtesy.

 unfassbarnathan wrote:
Depends on whether they had prepared the list earlier or not. If it was just a pick up game and they had thrown the list together in front of me I would be cool with up to 4 points over (5 point upgrades are so common and easy to drop) as I'd rather just play the game than wait for them to sort out their army.
But if they had a prewritten list I would want to be on the points limit or under.

If someone has shown up for a game and doesn't have a list already written up, I'm going to go find someone else to play who actually did their homework first.

 insaniak wrote:
If someone has shown up for a game and doesn't have a list already written up, I'm going to go find someone else to play who actually did their homework first.

To be fair, there are a lot of stores/groups where there isn't a standard point level, and someone might ask to play a game at a point level you weren't expecting. In that situation I can understand being a bit careless with the point limit just to get the game started as quickly as possible instead of trying to optimize a legal list that also works with the models you brought that day.

We allow it in our group, 5 points is an easy Meltabombs/Carapace Armour upgrade. If the opponent goes over the points limit then said player gets to look at their list to adjust to match the new points total. I like to call it the overcharge fee in list building.

SYKOJAK wrote:
We allow it in our group, 5 points is an easy Meltabombs/Carapace Armour upgrade.

I really hate this argument. If you've brought a 2005 point list to a 2000 point game and can't easily cut it down to 2000 points or less it means that you're getting something significant out of those extra points. On the other hand, adding a melta bomb to a random sergeant is unlikely to accomplish anything in my list because that sergeant isn't expecting to charge any vehicles. So you get extra power, I get extra clutter. The only way I'd agree to this kind of thing is if I get way more points than you exceed the limit by, so I can make major upgrades with them. For example, I think it would be fair to have a rule that for every 1 point you exceed the limit by I get to add 100 points to my list, and I don't have to keep everything WYSIWYG.

We also have come with a way for those who are constantly running over (we all have one of those in our group), for every 5 points they are over they give up a Victory Point.

SYKOJAK wrote:
5 points is an easy Meltabombs/Carapace Armour upgrade. .

In which case, they can just remove that upgrade, and suddenly their list is legal...

 Peregrine wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
We allow it in our group, 5 points is an easy Meltabombs/Carapace Armour upgrade.

I really hate this argument. If you've brought a 2005 point list to a 2000 point game and can't easily cut it down to 2000 points or less it means that you're getting something significant out of those extra points. On the other hand, adding a melta bomb to a random sergeant is unlikely to accomplish anything in my list because that sergeant isn't expecting to charge any vehicles. So you get extra power, I get extra clutter. The only way I'd agree to this kind of thing is if I get way more points than you exceed the limit by, so I can make major upgrades with them. For example, I think it would be fair to have a rule that for every 1 point you exceed the limit by I get to add 100 points to my list, and I don't have to keep everything WYSIWYG.

To be honest, most folks in our group can keep to the agreed points list. But there is always 1 guy in every group, that tries to take a little more. For him we do, stick the total to him. I am only stating the occasional over on points, which is alright. No sense in getting all worked up over to what amounts to a .25% points advantage at 2000 points. Then again, we are all real life friends who know each other's children and like to keep things friendly yet, competitive. So you can take that for what it is worth.

SYKOJAK wrote:
No sense in getting all worked up over to what amounts to a .25% points advantage at 2000 points.

Exactly, since it's such a trivial thing there is no reason to ever exceed the point limit when you have time to prepare a list.

Plus, it's not about the in-game advantage that is obtained, it's about the entitled attitude that allows a person to say "the rules don't apply to me because I want this extra thing in my army". I guess it's possible in theory that someone could break the point limit and then play an enjoyable game, but it's really not a very good first impression.

If anything, since I play all friendly games anyway, I allow usually a max of 10 points over. I may allow more if the model/formation they brought looks badass and I wanna fight in!

I allow indefinite grace points below the point limit, but zero above.

Got 2001? Take out a Space Marine, swap a melta gun for a bolter....do what you gotta do, and lets play.

You gotta draw the line somewhere. I think the actual line is a good place.

insaniak wrote:
It's the player's own choice to write a list that uses less points than they have available. But given that the points limit is the maximum number of points you have to spend, the moment you go over you have broken a rule.

I guess this is the major disconnect between us. I'm mostly after a fun and fair game. You're enjoyment of the game seems to require unerring adherence to rules regardless of whats fair. Yes equal points is most fair but you emphasize that your opponent can have as many points as you or less. Thus saying you're okay if the game is unfair, just if its unfair in your advantage. Why wouldn't you get bent out of shape if you're opponent brought 10% less points and you slaughtered him?

If you 'can't see getting bent out of shape over a few points', well, that applies both ways. It always seems in these discussions like a large number of people think that a few points being 'unimportant' should automatically mean that it should be ok to go over. If those few points are so unimportant, why can't you just remove them from your list?

As other people have mentioned its often very non trivial to remove anything from a list. Often the cheapest upgrade in some lists is 10pts. Removing a meltagun may remove an AT unit which may be one of only a couple so now your list is ill-equipped for vehicles. You seem like you're fine with gimping you're opponents list to adhere to rules but I'd rather let my opponent have a couple extra points so he can play the strategy he wants.

Or you're interested in playing a game using the rules you both agreed to at the beginning...

I'm always willing to sacrifice any rules if it means for a more enjoyable game for both parties. They're really more like guidelines anyway. I wouldn't want to force my opponent to rejigger his list, probably destroy his careful plan for the roles and interaction of his units, just to say 'the rules must be followed'.

So why not just remove that less than a half of one percent from the list, and save everybody the argument?

Again, as myself and others have mentioned removing just a couple points will often mean writing an entirely different list. Its much easier/quicker/friendlier just to allow it. Also, it wouldn't save any real arguments as I've never found someone in person who was curmudgeonly enough to care about such trivial point differences in friendly games.

Bookwrack wrote:
Awesome. Since you're fine with me moving my tac marines 5.5 inches in the movement phase, you're not going to mind me moving them 6.5 either.
It's called a limit for a reason. I don't go over it, and I expect my opponents to extend me the same courtesy.

I suppose you've never gone even a tiny fraction over the speed limit either? It too is, as you say, called a limit for a reason. Regardless you seem to entirely miss the point. I will gladly bend the rules for my opponent or myself to make a more enjoyable game for the both of us. If I thought for an instant someone was taking advantage of my easy going nature just to game the system to win rather than play the list they wanted, not only would I not allow it but I probably wouldn't play them at all. Playing people who put winning above enjoyment is rarely enjoyable.

It never ceases to amaze me how different the internet community is than every single person I've ever played 40k with.

I remember quite a few WD battle reports back in the day that were a few points over/under, sometimes as much as 10.

Well depends on size but normally a weapon you can downgrade or upgrade to lose here or there.
After a certain level you get little things like melta bombs, grenade upgrades, dropping a sniper rifle or such.

"Grace point," to me, means that you're playing against someone who has a full army, you're making an agreed-upon game, and so-on. Therefore, one of the agreements is that the game stay at it's exact point value.

If I were to be playing against a beginner or someone with just a few units and it's obvious it's more about learning, I don't care if they go 100 points over! But when it's a set game, the point limit is important to adhere to.

JubbJubbz wrote:
You're enjoyment of the game seems to require unerring adherence to rules regardless of whats fair.

Then you have misunderstood.

What I disagree with is simply a player assuming that a rule should be ignored just because they don't want to follow it. If we're agreeing to play a game, then it should be talen as writ that the rules of the game will be followed unless specifically discussed otherwise. Because that's what's 'fair' to both players.

Yes equal points is most fair but you emphasize that your opponent can have as many points as you or less. Thus saying you're okay if the game is unfair, just if its unfair in your advantage.

It's not 'unfair' at all. Both players have the same amount of points available. I didn't force my opponent to use fewer than he could.

Is the game 'unfair' if my opponent chooses to only move a unit 5 inches instead of 6? Am I being unfair if I don't let him move that unit 7 inches on the next turn?

Why wouldn't you get bent out of shape if you're opponent brought 10% less points and you slaughtered him?

Because it was his choice to bring fewer points. Just like it was his choice to not shoot on turn 3. Or to deploy that unit in the open.

As other people have mentioned its often very non trivial to remove anything from a list.

Sure. And sometimes it's 'non trivial' to not be able to shoot at a specific enemy unit. You're ok if we just ignore the LOS rules in that case, right? Because, you know, not being able to do what I want makes the game unfair?

I wouldn't want to force my opponent to rejigger his list, probably destroy his careful plan for the roles and interaction of his units, just to say 'the rules must be followed'.

But that's exactly the point of the points limit.

If you want to build a specific army to suit a particular strategy, and it doesn't fit into the points limit, then that strategy needs to be adjusted. You're supposed to build your army around the available points.

Unless it's a tournament, I'm fine with a spillover of 3-4 points. 5 is my hard limit, at that point you should just get rid of an upgrade. Most friendly games I don't really bother to check points limits, though.

JubbJubbz wrote:

As other people have mentioned its often very non trivial to remove anything from a list. Often the cheapest upgrade in some lists is 10pts. Removing a meltagun may remove an AT unit which may be one of only a couple so now your list is ill-equipped for vehicles. You seem like you're fine with gimping you're opponents list to adhere to rules but I'd rather let my opponent have a couple extra points so he can play the strategy he wants.

But that's the thing - why assume that it was trivial for me to knock things off my list?

Yeah, I'm sure I would have liked that extra meltagun too. However, it put me over he limit so I had the decency to knock it off my list anyway.

I don't see why it's so unreasonable to expect my opponent to do the same.

Yea, couldnt care less, 1 or 20 points over.

When I was new I allowed that, and asked for it, but now that i'm better at list building, and I actually make the list they day before or hours before I meet at the LGS for a game, I don't really have the problem of going over on points, and my opponents haven't asked for it either.

I wouldn't really enforce it anyways, especially against someone starting out.

Limit is a limit. Abide by it. It's part of the strategery of the game.