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"In the 1500's, a round Earth was inconcievable for many cultures.

This is actually a myth. Everyone knew that the earth was round, the whole "all the skeptics thought Columbus would fall off the edge of the world" thing comes from a work of fiction that poorly-informed teachers keep presenting as fact." - The Silo

Before I state my next point I want you all to not take this personally and to make it easier I will attempt to now soften it with humor. If Imperium players get a whole codex dedicated to one super-heavy where is my Codex: Khorne Lord of Skulls.

Ok here is the real reason I wrote this post please no mods please close this forum post... It is getting REEEEEAALLY off topic and discussion is mostly becoming repetitive.

The ancient Greeks knew the world was round, so it's likely that educated people in the Renaissance did as well.

Indeed so my good sir, but how does that relate in any way to Which Army would you remove entirely?

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Indeed so my good sir, but how does that relate in any way to Which Army would you remove entirely?

I was just backing up the above post.

people saying Knights are for Apoc only need to realize something....


Apoc doesn't exist anymore. Formations and super heavies have been folded into the core game. there IS no apocolypse anymore.

I voted SM, but only one Chapter and that would be the Ultramarines. Only I wouldn't remove them, just kill them all off. No more characters or models, make room for a few of the other chapters to take the limelight for awhile.

Maybe those pesky Nids invade Ultramar and this time they actually win. Gives the Nid players some bragging rights and shakes things up a bit. Would make all those Ultramarine armies that much cooler. Now instead of the UM being the glorious posterboys, now they are the once-was. Epic stories are always better when the good guys have been dead for awhile...

I hated darkcloak's story a few minutes ago... But I kinda like it now! It kind of makes them like pseudo eldar trying to redeem their past strength.

darkcloak wrote:
I voted SM, but only one Chapter and that would be the Ultramarines. Only I wouldn't remove them, just kill them all off. No more characters or models, make room for a few of the other chapters to take the limelight for awhile.

Maybe those pesky Nids invade Ultramar and this time they actually win. Gives the Nid players some bragging rights and shakes things up a bit. Would make all those Ultramarine armies that much cooler. Now instead of the UM being the glorious posterboys, now they are the once-was. Epic stories are always better when the good guys have been dead for awhile...

Which chapter is on the Rulebook at the moment? Oh yeah, the same one that was on the 6e book as well. Those damn Ultrama.... Oh wait.

Before you point to the Codex. Remember it was originally called Codex: Ultramarines before all the lesser chapters wanted a bit of recognition.

 Lobukia wrote:
First, Knights as a codex and formation. Make them a LOW for IoM codicies.

Second, disable the ability of people on Dakkadakka to quote a giant wall of text for their own minor quip of nothingness at the end.

What are discussion boards for if not gigantic, nerdy, overly-pedantic discussions?

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:

Before I state my next point I want you all to not take this personally and to make it easier I will attempt to now soften it with humor. If Imperium players get a whole codex dedicated to one super-heavy where is my Codex: Khorne Lord of Skulls.

Really, there should be Chaos Knights as well, because they do exist in the game's background.

MarsNZ wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
I voted SM, but only one Chapter and that would be the Ultramarines. Only I wouldn't remove them, just kill them all off. No more characters or models, make room for a few of the other chapters to take the limelight for awhile.

Maybe those pesky Nids invade Ultramar and this time they actually win. Gives the Nid players some bragging rights and shakes things up a bit. Would make all those Ultramarine armies that much cooler. Now instead of the UM being the glorious posterboys, now they are the once-was. Epic stories are always better when the good guys have been dead for awhile...

Which chapter is on the Rulebook at the moment? Oh yeah, the same one that was on the 6e book as well. Those damn Ultrama.... Oh wait.

Before you point to the Codex. Remember it was originally called Codex: Ultramarines before all the lesser chapters wanted a bit of recognition.

My point exactly! Time for the old guard to be slaughtered mercilessly so we can remember them fondly. Remember I'm not advocating that we squat the smurfs, just saying I think SM fluff would be better off if the best and brightest chapter was slain almost to a man.

Think about it, they got off easy during the HH, its about time Calgar pulled a Pedro and watched his entire sector die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact I'd even go so far as to say that the Ultramarines being eradicated would be one of the best stories GW could do right now.

Why should you buy the new Ltd Ed Marneus Calgar? Because he got shredded into mincemeat!

Tau

They just never really fit in the universe. It was like GW thought they could just add some ingredients when they introduced them.

Here's a visual of what I'm meaning: take a very grim dark picture of Blanche, then insert Big Bird from sesame street in the middle ground.
Or.... just put a happy meal somewhere in there.

That's about how out of place I see the Tau.

 kveldulf wrote:
Tau

They just never really fit in the universe. It was like GW thought they could just add some ingredients when they introduced them.

Here's a visual of what I'm meaning: take a very grim dark picture of Blanche, then insert Big Bird from sesame street in the middle ground.
Or.... just put a happy meal somewhere in there.

That's about how out of place I see the Tau.

Since when are Tau a "happy" faction? They're a generic scifi evil empire with Starship Troopers power armor. The only way they're "good" is that they're pragmatic enough to use science instead of religious idiocy, and to offer their enemies a chance to surrender and be absorbed into their empire instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in their path. Sure, they talk a lot about the "greater good", but only in the same way that the US talks about "bringing democracy" to countries that just happen to have valuable resources to exploit. In reality they're exactly what space marines would be if they were focused entirely on winning wars efficiently instead of absurd religious rituals.

 Peregrine wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:
Tau

They just never really fit in the universe. It was like GW thought they could just add some ingredients when they introduced them.

Here's a visual of what I'm meaning: take a very grim dark picture of Blanche, then insert Big Bird from sesame street in the middle ground.
Or.... just put a happy meal somewhere in there.

That's about how out of place I see the Tau.

Since when are Tau a "happy" faction? They're a generic scifi evil empire with Starship Troopers power armor. The only way they're "good" is that they're pragmatic enough to use science instead of religious idiocy, and to offer their enemies a chance to surrender and be absorbed into their empire instead of mindlessly slaughtering everything in their path. Sure, they talk a lot about the "greater good", but only in the same way that the US talks about "bringing democracy" to countries that just happen to have valuable resources to exploit. In reality they're exactly what space marines would be if they were focused entirely on winning wars efficiently instead of absurd religious rituals.

Na, I think the problem is more under the hood than your particulars: Its the superficial idea that they propose: that the various cultures they absorb magically work together regardless of what reality would dictate. People are basically bad - and 40k ran with that. The tau on the other hand, fits the post modern, trecky mentality that everyone's basically good - a bogus presumption devoid of real pluralism, thus less interesting due to a disguised level of uniformity - superficial, fake - even for a novelty.

I would rather an immersive fiction maintain a consistent sense of reality than entertain the notion of fake virtue working best.


Don't mean to be wordy.

 kveldulf wrote:
Its the superficial idea that they propose: that the various cultures they absorb magically work together regardless of what reality would dictate.

They don't. They work together because of a combination of Tau propaganda/brainwashing and the alternative to submitting and being good servants of the Tau being death. Or, in the case of the Kroot (and presumably other Tau allies that have a higher status than conquered enemies) they work together for the pragmatic reason that they both benefit from working together.

The tau on the other hand, fits the post modern, trecky mentality that everyone's basically good - a bogus presumption devoid of real pluralism, thus less interesting due to a disguised level of uniformity - superficial, fake - even for a novelty.

Only if you stubbornly refuse to think about what you're reading beyond the most superficial interpretation. If you spend a bit of thought on the Tau it's pretty obvious that they are a reference to real-world colonialism and empire-building where there was lots of talk about virtue and helping the poor unfortunate people who were being colonized but the reality was that it was all about exploiting them for the benefit of the major powers. All Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others.

Space Wolves. Get 'em outta here.

 Peregrine wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:
Its the superficial idea that they propose: that the various cultures they absorb magically work together regardless of what reality would dictate.

They don't. They work together because of a combination of Tau propaganda/brainwashing and the alternative to submitting and being good servants of the Tau being death. Or, in the case of the Kroot (and presumably other Tau allies that have a higher status than conquered enemies) they work together for the pragmatic reason that they both benefit from working together.

The tau on the other hand, fits the post modern, trecky mentality that everyone's basically good - a bogus presumption devoid of real pluralism, thus less interesting due to a disguised level of uniformity - superficial, fake - even for a novelty.

Only if you stubbornly refuse to think about what you're reading beyond the most superficial interpretation. If you spend a bit of thought on the Tau it's pretty obvious that they are a reference to real-world colonialism and empire-building where there was lots of talk about virtue and helping the poor unfortunate people who were being colonized but the reality was that it was all about exploiting them for the benefit of the major powers. All Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others.

Hmm. I saw the Tau as more communist/caste system than anything else. /shrug

As far as their reasoning goes in convincing other races to.... 'join them', the only rhetoric I see that's legitimate is the matter of survival - that's it.

I see their virtue - their 'greater good', 'absorb cultural sanctity' as a bit contrived because of how hamfisted that really is in RL..

Tau go much further than the artificial crap of 30k imperial truth. Heck, at least in that case, they had a singular god like figure that was the referent for truth - thus things didn't digress into cultural mediocrity: The Tau's absorption ethos ignores the matter of differing opinions.... even among Ethereals. It's all the idea that the collective magically works. At least with the Imperium, they had magic to fudge believability.

I just don't see the Tau's ideology holding on for any great length of time, even on a singular world - without persistent violence and depression.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I am 'one of those' who regard secularism as illogical - since it essentially is a religion.

 kveldulf wrote:
Hmm. I saw the Tau as more communist/caste system than anything else. /shrug

No, the Imperium are the communists, complete with gray concrete hive cities, commissars, and BMPs to carry their troops around. Tau are utilitarians and pragmatists with a side of "all Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others".

As far as their reasoning goes in convincing other races to.... 'join them', the only rhetoric I see that's legitimate is the matter of survival - that's it.

And that's exactly the choice the Tau offer you: either surrender and accept a submissive position in the Tau empire, or die. They'll try diplomacy and persuasion first because it's much better to have a planet join willingly without a fight than to have an expensive war to conquer it, but there's always the implied threat that if diplomacy doesn't work a Tau fleet is going to show up in orbit and change your mind.

I see their virtue - their 'greater good', 'absorb cultural sanctity' as a bit contrived because of how hamfisted that really is in RL..

And, again, you're making the mistake of assuming that propaganda is sincere belief. Tau believe in the "greater good" in the same way that the US believes in "spreading democracy" in countries that just happen to have resources to exploit or a strategically-valuable location. They'll use it as a nice propaganda tool, but in the end you have the same choice: submit or die.

The Tau's absorption ethos ignores the matter of differing opinions.... even among Ethereals. It's all the idea that the collective magically works.

No, you've just missed the point entirely. If you are a non-Tau your opinion is "absorbed" in that you submit and obey the Tau or you die. If you have something useful to provide to the empire then the Tau will use you as a tool, but they don't care one bit about things like the supposed virtue of having diverse opinions.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I am 'one of those' who regard secularism as illogical - since it essentially is a religion.

Then you're wrong about more than just 40k fluff.

 Peregrine wrote:


No, the Imperium are the communists, complete with gray concrete hive cities, commissars, and BMPs to carry their troops around. Tau are utilitarians and pragmatists with a side of "all Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others".

They do have commissars, but they are fascists.

and

Regarding, your general points, I relent, they are villainous - as bad as the Imperium. They just turn xenos into slaves than kill them. That still seems hamfisted in.

 Peregrine wrote:


Then you're wrong about more than just 40k fluff.

Go ahead and show me how irreligious you are. I think the scale you'll come up with will prove my point.

 Peregrine wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:
Hmm. I saw the Tau as more communist/caste system than anything else. /shrug

No, the Imperium are the communists, complete with gray concrete hive cities, commissars, and BMPs to carry their troops around. Tau are utilitarians and pragmatists with a side of "all Tau are equal, but some Tau are more equal than others".

The Imperium may look that way superficially but it's based on a religious structure, and communism is not. That they might act the same is possible, but they have two very different principles at their root. I tend to think the Imperium more or less favors a structure more that of an Oligarchy, though there may be a better description than that out there.

 kveldulf wrote:
Regarding, your general points, I relent, they are villainous - as bad as the Imperium. They just turn xenos into slaves than kill them. That still seems hamfisted in.

How is it "hamfisted in"? Because GW dared to include a pragmatic faction that ruthlessly conquers anything they find valuable in the most efficient way possible instead of bathing in the blood of slaughtered children just to show how Evil they are? Or because a more direct Starship Troopers ripoff (crisis suits, which are what space marines wish they could be) doesn't fit the "WHFB in space" theme of the other factions?

Go ahead and show me how irreligious you are. I think the scale you'll come up with will prove my point.

I am exactly 496.2 irreligious. Now what exactly was your point?

 Peregrine wrote:


How is it "hamfisted in"? Because GW dared to include a pragmatic faction that ruthlessly conquers anything they find valuable in the most efficient way possible instead of bathing in the blood of slaughtered children just to show how Evil they are? Or because a more direct Starship Troopers ripoff (crisis suits, which are what space marines wish they could be) doesn't fit the "WHFB in space" theme of the other factions?

Simply put, I think they are forcing Tau successes with the idea that a caste, multicultural, uniform system would work. I think that's Gene Rodenberry'izing warhammer.
Pragmatic? One could argue any race seeking its own preservation is being just that. So I don't know how much more pragmatic they are than the imperium... or where you are going with that. As far as warhammer being a rip off.. yep that's why its fun. And the dark humor bit.

 Peregrine wrote:


I am exactly 496.2 irreligious. Now what exactly was your point?

............wha? A bit eccentric eh? So, here's where I was going: one cannot borrow meaning to then prove a belief neutral / independent. its contradictory. That's the problem with secularism - it cannot justify its position with real meaning

 Vaktathi wrote:
There is no such insane size difference. Just as Guardsmen can survive close combat with Orks, they can survive combat with a Space Marine. The Space Marine is faster and has better armor than an Ork, but similar resiliency and strength. A Space Marine is not a Monstrous Creature.

The size difference is not as large, but he has armour, speed and skill to make up for that.

Do you have any non-game mechanic source on Orks being of similar strength and resilience?

 Vaktathi wrote:
There are people today who can lift cars, depending on how you're defining that.

As in, a big truck full with soldiers is stuck in the mud, and a Marine can walk up behind it and just casually lift up the entire back of the truck, pulling it to safe ground.

 Vaktathi wrote:
A Space Mariine is fast, but he's not freaking Eldar fast.

And? It's not like it's going to make a difference at that point. He is still fast enough to dodge every strike you throw against him, and he has enough mass and hard enough armour to do so even if it means crushing someone who happened to stand where he is dodging to.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Likewise, there's plenty of places for knives to slip in and harm a space marine,

And how are you hitting those, exactly? Ganging up is not that big of an advantage - the numbers we're talking here means they're getting in each other's way, and since they can't do gak to prevent him from dodging to wherever he pleases (or, if he decides to run off, he can do that and blocking his way won't impede him in the slighest).

 Vaktathi wrote:
there's plenty of fluff on that

Outside IG protagonist fluff? Very rare, at best. Remember that this is armour that can take a grenade belt detonating at its feet without being pierced, or can walk through fire (or be set on fire, for that matter) without problems.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just assuming he can always dodge everything is basically hand-wavijng any opposing counter-argument away with plot magic. We've have Marines killed by creatures far less graceful and far more clumsy and slow than norman Humans, Orks being the best example that comes to mind.

Orks are not only many like humans, they are also stronger and tougher. Even then, it's going to be a pretty damn tough prospect for normal boyz. You'd need their tech, Nobz...

 Vaktathi wrote:
He's hitting three guys with one punch? Really? This is where we're going?

Ok, no, stopping this here. have I not read any such thing in the fluff or Marines hitting three opponents with a single blow, much less following it with another just like it. This is goofy Adam West batman stuff, hell I can't even recall seeing something like this in a comic book.

It's not that illogical at all. Consider how much area you can actually cover with a hook, now consider their size, how packed the Guardsmen are, and the fact that they can't do anything at all to impede the trajectory of the blow.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Um....why? Gaunts, Orks, Scarabs, Ripper Swarms, etc all seem to be able to find such gaps penetrate these things. And we're assuming that many trained soldiers can't hit squat? Methinks We're being a bit overboard here.

Me thinks not.

Rippers have problems too, but that is mostly because of their size. Their teeth are still razor sharp. Scarabs have their entropic thingy that says feth you to armoured targets. Gaunts are extremely fast (Eldar-fast, though not as skilled) and lethal.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Even as he's getting a dozen las-bolts shot into him? Remember, close combat isn't just dudes throwing punches, it's just as abstracted as the shooting example, possible moreso.

Yeah. Even if you somehow manage to bayonet a weak spot, you'll never get to fire in the same strike. SM also laugh off lasguns everywhere outside of the game.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Not really. You're assuming every time they pull a trigger, that they have a clear target. This is about the rarest thing in warfare.

In modern warfare, huge numbers of rounds are expended for each combatant killed. In Vietnam it was ~70,000 bullets fired for every Vietcong/North Vietnamese killed. In Afghanistan, the US GAO estimates it was 250,000 bullets fired for each "insurgent" killed. Huge amounts of ammunition are expended, and effectively the chances of getting a hit are random. You're putting rounds downrange about where you think the enemy is, not lining up direct shots at clear targets.

Do you have any experience with firearms? 40k's shooting system isn't a direct representation of single shots. Assault Cannons are excellent examples. They're not just firing 4 rounds, they're firing dozens or hundreds, the shot count is abstracted. I don't have any formal military training,, but you put a target a hundred meters downrange and I guarantee you I can hit that target at a rate better than BS10 even with a relatively mediocre accuracy rifle like an AK (I can put a Vindicare to shame with one of my AK's if we're assuming 40k accuracy is a perfectly accurate reflection of real hit rates). 40k's mechanics aren't representing that kind of direct translation.

The most common situation I encounter where my bolters matter is when the Guardsmen are ~9" away, in open ground. There, it surely should not be so hard to hit and kill?

 Vaktathi wrote:
We've got pretty accurate descriptions of bolters, there's nothing about them that is particularly advanced. They're make-believe weapons that follow the rule of cool, rather than being exceedingly advanced technology.

Where are those advanced descriptions explaining everything? In Forge World? Forge World's explanations make zero sense whatsoever - you have incredibly small bore Battle Cannons, every vehicle is slow, ground clearances do not match, and so on and so forth.

 Vaktathi wrote:
And while it's true they have different sized weapons, the gaps in their capabilities are not tremendous enough to show any difference in game. As for why? Who knows, it's 40k.

A real world analogy is probably good here. .38 special and .357 magnum. The latter is an upsized version of the former. The .357 is a much more powerful, hard hitting round with far more ferocious recoil. However, it's still largely a handgun round, packing significantly less punch than rifle rounds like 5.56, and thus it's not worth distinguishing in any sort of game terms, and even in real life the differences between the two on a human target are largely circumstantial.

Why is it not tremendous? The strength difference, ability to absorb recoil and so on is.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Which would be 99% of Black Library.

So we'll just average it out. Remove the worst cases of each faction being plot armoured, and you now have something useable.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Why are we assuming the mortar shells are plot weapons? We're talking about a fist-sized explosive shell moving at hundreds of meters a second. If Bolters can skill Space Marines, certainly Mortars can. They certainly match up in game terms quite well, with similar S and AP.

Are you sure it was one of those tiny portable mortars and not one of the many, many artillery mortars? Could have been a Colossus Siege Mortar, for example.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just as a guardsmen killing a dreadnought with a lasgun powerpack and some plants is. If you can't accept that a lot of this isn't written as realistic combat but rule of cool, you're simply going to be disappointed by any game, no matter what. Sorry, but there's no way around that.

As said, we disregard plot armour.

I am okay with having the 40K game as an arcade-style game that doesn't make any sense, really, but not when the point of it is to be a story-driven game.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yes, plot armor is rampant everywhere, IG, Eldar, SM, anyone who's the protagonist. But that's besides the point, the game mechanics are such that it needs to introduce an artificial construct for certain things to be able to harm a Player Character at all, even when such shouldn't necessarily be true in the fluff because these characters are built to such a high level of power. What'll put down a Space Marine in a 40k game on a 2+ with no armor save might need four or five shots to do so in the RPG setting.

Which is fine. Lascannons will still probably 2shot you, which is not odd at all. Same with meltas.

 Vaktathi wrote:
O_o so rampaging Orks should only have the slightest chance of being able to wound a Space Marine? medium anti-tank guns like Autocannons should have a good chance of leaving a naked space marine unscathed? Marines should routinely walk of plasma gun hits?

Many things would need to be adjusted, not only Marines, hence why I included Nobz as an example. No, I do not say that Marines should walk off plasma gun hits without impediment. But yes, standard Orks should not have very good chances.

 Vaktathi wrote:
What examples from Horus rising are we referring to here? I ask mainly because I think I read that 8 or 9 years ago and don't remember most of it.

Holy crap that was a long time ago.

Horus Rising and its sister novels False Gods and Galaxy in Flames has lots of interesting information on Space Marines. Aside from providing additional data on their size, it also shows that Marines are so much more than their wargear (the Auretian Technocracy who also wear Astartes-like PA and bolters get absolutely dominated by Astartes infantry) and it also explains that SM had an odd effect on humans they were fighting. Soldiers so large and so bulky moving so fast triggered some odd kind of extreme shock in the poor humans who could not believe such a thing was physically possible, and while I do not recall what the syndrome was called, it was still quite interesting to see just how far from our own reality the nature of warfare in 40k is.

 Vaktathi wrote:
A lot of 40k lore would beg to differ. There's lots of 40k lore that just amounts to "life sucks and nothing good happened, the Bureaucracy rolled on". Dead Men Walking, The Inquisition War, The Siege of Vraks, etc.

And in most cases, it's just gak for the humans. Yes, the DA took a beating from the CSM at Vraks. It's grimdark in another way for them, though. They fight on well, but ultimately there is nothing the SM can do to stop the Imperium from falling - they are too few, and the enemies and the warzones are too many.

 Vaktathi wrote:
And a big part of that in many cases is the heroes failing in depressing ways. It happens.

Indeed, such as getting rekt by Chaos Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:So once you remove IG and make all the "awesome" space marines even more awesome then why exactly does anyone care how powerful they are? Without a "normal humans" army to compare space marines to they're just boring stat inflation. In fact you've just reduced the apparent power of space marines since they're now one "elite" army among a bunch of other "elites". The only way to make space marines look powerful would be to constantly talk about that old IG army with all 3s for a stat line that you removed.

*Like in an RPG where you have 1-2 damage with your sword at first level and 1-2 million damage with your sword at the end of the game, but it still takes the same number of hits to kill an enemy because everything has a HP increase to match your damage increase.

It's not about making SM as strong as possible for its own sake. If IG are gone and the game adjusted, SM will still match fairly well with the other factions, causing the game to resemble its own lore more. That is the point. That said, I would not remove IG anyway. They have their spot, and I can soak up the immersionbreaking. But if forced to remove one, they go!

...If we exclude obvious choices like Knights and Militarum Tempestus, that is, whose loss would be pretty much irrelevant.

TheSilo wrote:I guess marines being 8 times more powerful in shooting than guardsmen is just not enough for some folks.

+1 BS and +1 S is not 8 times as powerful.

Also, damn, but this post ended up long.

 kveldulf wrote:
Simply put, I think they are forcing Tau successes with the idea that a caste, multicultural, uniform system would work. I think that's Gene Rodenberry'izing warhammer.

You're joking, right? The Tau aren't multicultural in the Star Trek "diversity is awesome" sense, they just allow everyone to submit to the Tau empire and obey the ethereals. They enforce conformity through a combination of propaganda/brainwashing and threats of a Tau invasion fleet appearing in orbit, not by saying "hey guys, let's all be peaceful and happy together".

Pragmatic? One could argue any race seeking its own preservation is being just that. So I don't know how much more pragmatic they are than the imperium... or where you are going with that.

The Imperium isn't pragmatic, they're a bunch of religious zealots who care more about "honor" than winning. The Tau will shoot you to death from a safe distance because that's the most efficient way to kill you. A space marine will insist on fighting an honorable duel with swords. The Tau will abandon territory without hesitation if defending that territory is a bad strategy. The Imperium will sacrifice millions of guardsmen to stubbornly hold an irrelevant patch of ground and execute any officer who dares to suggest that retreating and saving those troops for a more important fight would be a good idea. The Tau will use science and engineering to build the best possible gun and then kill you with it. The Imperium will use WWI-era technology because science is heresy and the machine god does not permit modification to the sacred designs. Etc.

............wha? A bit eccentric eh? So, here's where I was going: one cannot borrow meaning to then prove a belief neutral / independent. its contradictory. That's the problem with secularism - it cannot justify its position with real meaning

I really have no clue what you're talking about here. Secularism is simply the belief that society/government should stay out of religion and religious belief should be a personal choice by individuals in their private lives. There's no need to justify that position with "real meaning", whatever that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's not about making SM as strong as possible for its own sake. If IG are gone and the game adjusted, SM will still match fairly well with the other factions, causing the game to resemble its own lore more.

Have you seen the Tau and Eldar codices lately? Even if you ignore IG entirely "basic" marine units (IOW, anything that isn't some kind of multi-codex death star) are on the low end of power. I don't really see how getting killed by guardsmen is fluff-destroying but being killed even more efficiently by basic fire warriors is fine.

It isn't on the pole, nor do I want them completely removed from the game, but Imperial Knights. I'd like to see them played but only at restricted points levels, my local meta has loads of Knights that are played in stupidly low points levels and it just irritates me slightly when your opponent puts down a super heavy in 1000 points match :/

 Peregrine wrote:


You're joking, right? The Tau aren't multicultural in the Star Trek "diversity is awesome" sense, they just allow everyone to submit to the Tau empire and obey the ethereals. They enforce conformity through a combination of propaganda/brainwashing and threats of a Tau invasion fleet appearing in orbit, not by saying "hey guys, let's all be peaceful and happy together".

Yes, they are a bit better than Rodenberry fluff.
I'm arguing the mechanics, it would be like saying 'communism works guys' when in reality, it depresses (unless everyone is perfect... or perfectly indoctrinated ). A caste system is inherently divided and thus an singular purpose to do anything would be quite limited... without magic. If they had an internal power struggle it would be a bit better - relaying the gritty reality.

 Peregrine wrote:

The Imperium isn't pragmatic, they're a bunch of religious zealots who care more about "honor" than winning. The Tau will shoot you to death from a safe distance because that's the most efficient way to kill you. A space marine will insist on fighting an honorable duel with swords. The Tau will abandon territory without hesitation if defending that territory is a bad strategy. The Imperium will sacrifice millions of guardsmen to stubbornly hold an irrelevant patch of ground and execute any officer who dares to suggest that retreating and saving those troops for a more important fight would be a good idea. The Tau will use science and engineering to build the best possible gun and then kill you with it. The Imperium will use WWI-era technology because science is heresy and the machine god does not permit modification to the sacred designs. Etc.

Depends on the era, but yes, 40k generally has more zealotry. But really, what is zealotry when you have physical, blood thirsty, booby demons in the universe? That word sort of loses the stigma we know it has here in RL - in that relation. As far as this 'pragmatic' you seem to pride the Tau to have, more than the Imperium, are you reading the same books? Same fluff? Yea, sure there are the exceptional dumb Custer moments but that is the exceptional thing, and not something to get all absolutist about. Generally, (and this is what makes 40k impressive and alluring) is the scale and depth the Imperium has. From the sheer mind boggling manpower and colossal things it can summon, and superhuman leaders, it puts to perspective that WW1 'no hold barred' feeling, in which the true horror of pragmatism can be realized, albeit, novel. Tau on the other hand somehow artificially compete with this scale because they have guns that can shoot 'more faster' than the sheer weight of volume the AM can bring?? Uhuh. It was more about selling chicken shas'bots.

As far as technology goes, the Tau area bit over glorified. On the table top, they may be painted a certain way as technologically uber, but in the BL I read about the Imperium, they are still very high tech and impressive - in relation to the Tau. There is diversity in this to consider as well.

 Peregrine wrote:

I really have no clue what you're talking about here. Secularism is simply the belief that society/government should stay out of religion and religious belief should be a personal choice by individuals in their private lives. There's no need to justify that position with "real meaning", whatever that is.

Yes, I know what it is.
Again, why isn't there a need to justifying that belief (even to yourself)? If there's no reason to justify, then why is it practiced? Believe it or not, this concept did not invent itself; it came from some manner of moral law. It's a word that falls flat on its face when seriously used.

 kveldulf wrote:
I'm arguing the mechanics, it would be like saying 'communism works guys' when in reality, it depresses (unless everyone is perfect... or perfectly indoctrinated ). A caste system is inherently divided and thus an singular purpose to do anything would be quite limited... without magic. If they had an internal power struggle it would be a bit better - relaying the gritty reality.

Sigh. You keep missing the point here. The Tau say "the greater good works", but that's because it's Tau propaganda. Of course they're going to talk about how wonderful they are in their own propaganda. But in reality we see that the Tau empire doesn't function by having a wonderful utopia where everyone respects their differences and values diversity and peaceful cooperation, it functions by having a totalitarian state where dissent is not tolerated.

As far as this 'pragmatic' you seem to pride the Tau to have, more than the Imperium, are you reading the same books? Same fluff? Yea, sure there are the exceptional dumb Custer moments but that is the exceptional thing, and not something to get all absolutist about.

I think you've just missed the entire point of the setting. The Imperium is stupid and inefficient and that's the whole point! That's where the "grimdark" aspect of the setting comes from. Humanity is ruled by an insane theocracy that deliberately maintains a state of suffering so unimaginable that death seems like a pleasant alternative, and this is the best hope for survival. We, as outside observers, have to sit and watch as the Imperium is destroyed by its own rejection of pragmatic things like science and good strategy because it has reached a point where mindless obedience is the only remaining option. To overthrow the Imperium and replace it with a sensible system would mean a fatal moment of weakness for humanity, and so the Imperium continues to exist and prolong the slow death of humanity.

As far as technology goes, the Tau area bit over glorified. On the table top, they may be painted a certain way as technologically uber, but in the BL I read about the Imperium, they are still very high tech and impressive - in relation to the Tau. There is diversity in this to consider as well.

Yeah, those WWI-era tanks and artillery guns are certainly more advanced than Starship Troopers power armor and flying tanks. The Imperium has isolated examples of superior technology, but they're all locked away in stasis fields somewhere because they're priceless religious relics that can never be risked in battle. The vast majority of the Imperium's military would consider Vietnam-era US military hardware a massive upgrade.

Again, why isn't there a need to justifying that belief (even to yourself)? If there's no reason to justify, then why is it practiced? Believe it or not, this concept did not invent itself; it came from some manner of moral law. It's a word that falls flat on its face when seriously used.

I really have no idea what you're talking about here. Perhaps we should just abandon this tangent since you seem to be incapable of communicating your opinions in a way that other people can understand?

darkcloak wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
I voted SM, but only one Chapter and that would be the Ultramarines. Only I wouldn't remove them, just kill them all off. No more characters or models, make room for a few of the other chapters to take the limelight for awhile.

Maybe those pesky Nids invade Ultramar and this time they actually win. Gives the Nid players some bragging rights and shakes things up a bit. Would make all those Ultramarine armies that much cooler. Now instead of the UM being the glorious posterboys, now they are the once-was. Epic stories are always better when the good guys have been dead for awhile...

Which chapter is on the Rulebook at the moment? Oh yeah, the same one that was on the 6e book as well. Those damn Ultrama.... Oh wait.

Before you point to the Codex. Remember it was originally called Codex: Ultramarines before all the lesser chapters wanted a bit of recognition.

My point exactly! Time for the old guard to be slaughtered mercilessly so we can remember them fondly. Remember I'm not advocating that we squat the smurfs, just saying I think SM fluff would be better off if the best and brightest chapter was slain almost to a man.

Think about it, they got off easy during the HH, its about time Calgar pulled a Pedro and watched his entire sector die.


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In fact I'd even go so far as to say that the Ultramarines being eradicated would be one of the best stories GW could do right now.

Why should you buy the new Ltd Ed Marneus Calgar? Because he got shredded into mincemeat!

do you supprot senselessly getting ridda the other big 4? if you don't like ultramarines don't paint em.

Well actually if the UM died in a big battle with the Tyranids, I'd probably want to paint some! It was never about disliking them, I just thought it would be a cool storyline. And now that you mention it... another Istvaan type massacre would also suit me just fine. And again, not voting to remove them, just kill them off mostly. Maybe the surviving Marines have to form back into legions? Maybe they have another founding?

See you can't deny it dude. Killing Space Marines is awesome.


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PS: I know all about the first nid attack where 2nd Co gets wiped. That's why I think its fitting that the nids finish em off!


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If I were in marketing I could sell this like lemonade!

Sorry we nuked Ultramar guys. Now how would you like to buy our new Ultramarine line "Tyrranic Crusaders"?

Maybe I'll let Cassius live to become the new Chapter Master?

:Rolls out brand new SM models:

Sorry Sisters!


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I smell a supplement! Mwuhahaha


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I'm sorry to do this but I wanna talk about tau

I hate Tau. A lot. They are overpowering sometimes, and they can pull off some hijinx that are frustrating to deal with, and rip tides are just awful.

But I love the feeling I get when I beat them! That makes them fun for me.

Sisters, since they can't get a good model range

 Peregrine wrote:


Sigh. You keep missing the point here. The Tau say "the greater good works", but that's because it's Tau propaganda. Of course they're going to talk about how wonderful they are in their own propaganda. But in reality we see that the Tau empire doesn't function by having a wonderful utopia where everyone respects their differences and values diversity and peaceful cooperation, it functions by having a totalitarian state where dissent is not tolerated.

Yes I agree and understand - they are not who they seem to be: their own ideals are indeed a farse.
The Tau are the only race in 40k in which marxist ideals are made blatant and furthermore have somehow great success..... in the galactic scene..... without some serious magical leadership.
Then supposedly, each caste works with each other in harmony - unified under the kingly caste because they had some good ideas back in the day.
Then there is the issue with xenos they subjugate - somehow making/hoping for lasting obedience in a culture neutral government - even with lots of violence, that's a tall order for one world. Maybe they don't care about production power of the worlds they conquer? I doubt it.

 Peregrine wrote:

I think you've just missed the entire point of the setting. The Imperium is stupid and inefficient and that's the whole point! That's where the "grimdark" aspect of the setting comes from. Humanity is ruled by an insane theocracy that deliberately maintains a state of suffering so unimaginable that death seems like a pleasant alternative, and this is the best hope for survival. We, as outside observers, have to sit and watch as the Imperium is destroyed by its own rejection of pragmatic things like science and good strategy because it has reached a point where mindless obedience is the only remaining option. To overthrow the Imperium and replace it with a sensible system would mean a fatal moment of weakness for humanity, and so the Imperium continues to exist and prolong the slow death of humanity.

I agree. The beast that is the Imperium takes awhile before its cogs start going, but once it gets going, it spews forth outrageous numbers with over the top machines of war. That is their charm. It's also seems to be a very realistic tone in 'all out' warfare to conquer or maintain worlds, unless your technology can mind control people into submission. As far as the whole 'decline of the Imperium' summary you gave, I agree, I guess? Not sure why you brought all that up other than support why the Tau ideals are more sensible or more fitting? Well, I think they, the authors, intended for them to be flawed. I bet we both agree on that. However, the devs that designed the Tau couldn't help themselves to paint in a Gene Marxberry flavor xenos with robotech because in their explanation: why not?

 Peregrine wrote:

Yeah, those WWI-era tanks and artillery guns are certainly more advanced than Starship Troopers power armor and flying tanks. The Imperium has isolated examples of superior technology, but they're all locked away in stasis fields somewhere because they're priceless religious relics that can never be risked in battle. The vast majority of the Imperium's military would consider Vietnam-era US military hardware a massive upgrade.

Oh boy, 'starship trooper power armour and flying tanks are superior than WW1 inspired tanks'? What an awesome comparison /sarcasm. Nevermind those 'WW1 Tanks' are more than capable of reducing 'Starship trooper power armour' to debris, they are most likely mass produced with a cost efficiency capable of making a battle suit pilot blush. And flying tanks? you mean anti grav right? That's not really them flying, but if they really could, then anti air resources are now applicable to armor, and.... the tank ratio still favors the imperium even more so.

 Peregrine wrote:

I really have no idea what you're talking about here. Perhaps we should just abandon this tangent since you seem to be incapable of communicating your opinions in a way that other people can understand?

I sense I should perhaps apologize? I guess I'm sorry for not correlating this very well - to the topic of the Tau?
To make it clear to you, I have issue with essentially the Tau being successful 'secular atheists' with no magical explanation - That's too artificial. Their belief does not carry any motivational substance (ultimate meaning) other than the shallow notion of 'just because'. Whenever a fiction makes this sort of culture effective in a grand scale, I tend to roll my eyes.

Also, I'm having a hard time reading you here. Are you merely stating secularism as a definition and leaving it at that? Well, I wasn't originally making a point of its existence, only its belief & practice - that its illogical. I later explained the word will eventually have to borrow from a moral law - so its use usually becomes a contradiction - unless you are pointing at its circular problem. That's where I'm coming from when evaluating things like the Tau.