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I don't know how to feel about this. On one hand I liked finecast better than metal... but then again I think I hate metal because as a kid when I first started I couldnt get models to stay together and if I did manage to get something to stick it was usually an arm or something superglued to my finger. I still remember how I never finished my first hive tyrant...
On the other hand I kinda hope they have something new in the works, posable special characters with all the options would be fantastic...
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! MILK FOR THE KHORNE FLAKES!
KaptinBadrukk wrote: OK. How was putting it together? Was it easy to paint? Was it more finecast or gak cast?
I'm not sure if you mean the Urien Rakkarth or the Grotesque, though I guess it's not much different. It's hard to say, because they come from an age when there weren't plastic SC's yet. At the time, it was certainly more trouble than a metal SC, but you wouldn't have seen a metal SC with as many tiny parts as Rakkarth (or Grotesque). Well, really, there weren't infantry plastic models with as many parts as that either, though I think retrospectively, Kabalites were one of the first plastic MPP kits that just felt awesome to model, for me. They just seemed a cut above others of the time, like all the Space Marines sets.
Once prepped, neither Urien nor Grotesque were particularly hard to paint (nor most of the original Dark Eldar finecast models, like the Succubus).
Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for new plastic versions of 'em I just have a little less animosity for the finecast, is all. I always did understand that they were more "advanced" from a hobby perspective, in that they took more time and love to get prepped.
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GearheadXII wrote: I don't know how to feel about this. On one hand I liked finecast better than metal... but then again I think I hate metal because as a kid when I first started I couldnt get models to stay together and if I did manage to get something to stick it was usually an arm or something superglued to my finger. I still remember how I never finished my first hive tyrant...
On the other hand I kinda hope they have something new in the works, posable special characters with all the options would be fantastic...
When I was a kid, I loved metal models -- but the original ones were lead, not pewter, and lead was so much nicer a material IMO. The larger metal models were always problematic someone explained how pinning worked (this was before the days of the Interwebs hahaha). Then again, back then Ogryn were big models LOL.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote: I should point out that this is certainly not my ideal situation. I want GW to replace finecast with real resin (including decent quality control) so that all of those models become available to people like me, but that's apparently not an option.
If GW would just stock and ship Forgeworld stuff, that would solve the problem, no?
The thing is, I'm even willing to pay the FW model prices. Frankly, many models don't feel that much more expensive (especially considering that they're low run). But, the shipping and *DUTIES* kill me. I either place a little order and pay through the nose (but usually don't need to pay duty), or get free shipping with a bigger order, but then stuck with duty, custom import fees, and all that crap.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/19 09:11:26
@Talys: calling Finecast more "advanced" for the hobbyist is a poor rational for it's plethora of holes that need to be filled in order to have a well prepped model, ready for a quality paintjob...
i have Urien in metal, as he was available for about 6 months in metal, before being switched to Finecast...
while his arms certainly need pinning if you are ever going pick him up after assembly, the cast is flawless...
i can only imagine the amount of little holes that would be in those tentacles he is floating on and the tubes on his back in Finecast, if the hoses on Tigurius' backpack and the tubes on the side of Sgt. Chronus in Finecast are anything to go by...
which is a bummer, considering that my metal versions of those
two characters are perfect casts...
i certainly don't want to see characters and models disappear either, but i never wanted to see the move away from metal anyway...
if mono-pose plastics are our best hope for future characters, then i am all for it...
GW has definitely pushed my conversion and sculpting skills, anyway, by forcing me to build better versions of their special characters using plastic kits, which is fine by me...
I'm not sure if you mean the Urien Rakkarth or the Grotesque, though I guess it's not much different. It's hard to say, because they come from an age when there weren't plastic SC's yet. At the time, it was certainly more trouble than a metal SC, but you wouldn't have seen a metal SC with as many tiny parts as Rakkarth (or Grotesque).
Once prepped, neither Urien nor Grotesque were particularly hard to paint (nor most of the original Dark Eldar finecast models, like the Succubus).
.
Specs: Trollcast is a hard (75D) heat resistant plastic resin. It is much harder, and tougher, than normal resin. Trollcast can withstand 320F, and can handle prolonged exposure at 150F with ease (so our Australian friends should not have any problems during the summer). It can be super-glued together, and takes standard miniature paints easily (we recommend you wash the figures first with warm water, soap and a toothbrush to remove any mold release agent that might still be on the miniature.)
Safety: Trollcast should never be exposed to direct flame. Other than this , Trollcast has no special safety precautions, the dust in non- carcinogenic. However: all material dusts will irritate the lining of the lungs, and make existing conditions worse, so we recommend wearing a dust mask. Better safe than sorry!
Trollcast is safe to expose to INDIRECT heat. Unlike many plastics (PVC etc.) it does not give off toxic vapours. Heating Trollcast to 320F from indirect heat is safe, and a good way to soften the material in order to reposition parts (then plunge into cold water to set). AGAIN DO NOT EXPOSE TROLLCAST TO AN OPEN FLAME. Heck .. do not expose any resin or plastic toy from any company to direct flame. It is just a REALLY bad idea okay.
I suspect the reason that the material was chosen over the resin used by Forgeworld is speed - that it likely cures to a point where it can be removed from the mold in less time.
Important, given the numbers that GW would need to meet.
It is also likely that they had some test runs, possibly by the company supplying the resin and equipment, and those test runs went well enough.
When being used in ideal circumstances by well trained experts, and no corners were cut.
Then, in the wild... the workers were less well trained, and creating models using much more complicated molds. Quite possibly people that were used to the much wider tolerances of working with metal.
And the QA folks were either not trained in what to look for, unable to spot problems, or given a quota of the numbers that had to pass inspection, or just not given the time needed to do the intensive QA needed. (I suspect a combination of all of those.)
Findcash was not an ideal material to begin with, but the problems were exacerbated by the lack of company wide preparation for the new material.
That the new material coincided with a price hike... really helped cement Failcraft as a failure on most possible levels.
The Auld Grump, and when Gandalf melts in the brutal sunshine of Leeds....
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
So if FC is finally dumped what happens to kits that are now currently only in FC and have no plans/rumours for an update?
eg Deathleaper, Banshees etc.
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Well, that the newest Necron Overlord is a plastic kit may be that Finecast got replaced with plastics?
"Your mumblings are awakening the sleeping Dragon, be wary when meddling the affairs of Dragons, for thou art tasty and go good with either ketchup or chocolate. "
Dragons fear nothing, if it acts up, we breath magic fire that turns them into marshmallow peeps. We leaguers only cry rivets!
Ratius wrote: So if FC is finally dumped what happens to kits that are now currently only in FC and have no plans/rumours for an update?
eg Deathleaper, Banshees etc.
Obviosly, they become plastic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: GW could never get the mix right, but FW could.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/19 16:30:55
INSANE army lists still available!!!! Now being written in 8th edition format! I have Index Imperium 1, Index Imperium 2, Index Xenos 2, Codex Orks Codex Tyranids, Codex Blood Angels and Codex Space Marines!
PM me for an INSANE (100K+ points) if you desire.
GearheadXII wrote: Do you mean to say the FW resin models were better resin? Or was it that their QA process was better?
Both. FW resin is much sturdier and doesn't suffer from details crumbling off at the slightest touch or models bending under their own weight. And while FW's quality control is frustratingly bad it's still way better than finecast. Models usually require some cleanup work, but the flaws are usually things that are fairly easy to fix (bending warped parts in hot water, easy gap filling on flat surfaces, etc) and parts that are so bad they have to be replaced are rare. Finecast, on the other hand, often has bubbles and broken parts in detailed areas where you'd have to re-sculpt the model yourself and virtually every model is defective to the point that it needs to be replaced.
In short: FW resin is annoying to deal with but gives you a legitimate model in the end, finecast is always trash.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheAuldGrump wrote: And the QA folks were either not trained in what to look for, unable to spot problems, or given a quota of the numbers that had to pass inspection, or just not given the time needed to do the intensive QA needed. (I suspect a combination of all of those.)
Alternatively, GW just made a decision that most of their customers have very low standards for model quality (as demonstrated by the number of players with hordes of gray models thrown carelessly into a box with a pile of broken pieces at the bottom) and won't care about the casting problems. Sure, the minority who do care will cost GW some sales, but maybe they felt that the loss was small relative to the increased profit from selling a cheaper product at a higher price to the majority.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/19 21:25:12
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Many pictures show Finecast models being twisted and deformed. That's a sign they're being pulled from the mould to soon before they're cured. GW are clearly in a rush, is it any wonder the QC was scant?
Years ago in GWHQ you could see them casting through a window, they'd often cast things to order from back catalogues if it wasn't in stock. The guy would pop all the models out, look the over and plop a few duds back in the melting pot. I find it hard to believe that the people casting finecast couldn't see the issues as it was coming out unless they didn't care or were in too much of a rush. Further, I suspect the way that finecast cannot be recycled in the same way as metal (straight back in the pot to use again, means they are more inclined to let duds through. Just my opinion of course.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/19 21:40:43
jah-joshua wrote: @Talys: calling Finecast more "advanced" for the hobbyist is a poor rational for it's plethora of holes that need to be filled in order to have a well prepped model, ready for a quality paintjob...
i have Urien in metal, as he was available for about 6 months in metal, before being switched to Finecast...
while his arms certainly need pinning if you are ever going pick him up after assembly, the cast is flawless...
i can only imagine the amount of little holes that would be in those tentacles he is floating on and the tubes on his back in Finecast, if the hoses on Tigurius' backpack and the tubes on the side of Sgt. Chronus in Finecast are anything to go by...
which is a bummer, considering that my metal versions of those
two characters are perfect casts...
i certainly don't want to see characters and models disappear either, but i never wanted to see the move away from metal anyway...
if mono-pose plastics are our best hope for future characters, then i am all for it...
GW has definitely pushed my conversion and sculpting skills, anyway, by forcing me to build better versions of their special characters using plastic kits, which is fine by me...
cheers
jah
I put the "advanced" in quotes for a reason I think finecast is more advanced in the sense that you need to be a better hobbyist to make it work; I do NOT think finecast is more advanced (than metal or plastic) in the sense that it is better. The tons of tiny parts thing really came with the advent of finecast, and has now carried over into plastic (to a slightly lesser degree... but not by much). I don't mind all the parts if it's to solve a problem (like undercuts).
My biggest question with the plastic solos is what pieces to pre-glue,and which ones to paint first, then model, in order to get the best result. Which is really nice -- in Finecast, you really have no choice; because of poor fit you often MUST put it together first, and fill all the gaps and remediate all the deficiencies.
I agree with you in terms of converting plastic kits into solos. That is definitely the way to go for many models now, and like you say, it's fun to do, and heck of a lot cheaper
You knew this was going to happen when they changed out the tools last May. The brush in the old moldline remover kit was for finecast. There's no brush in the new tools line. They got rid of the razor saw. No more metal. (At least, that's
what I understand is one of the things it was supposed to be used for).
I have several finecast models, and I hate it. My first finecast model has broken just by sitting around in foam in the bag, being transported. (It's one of the old zooanthropes.) The first venomthrope I had quite a few bubbles and needed patching with greenstuff when I got it.
All my fiance's finecast incubi are broken, just sitting around in foam in the bag, being transported. Some of the swords were bent in the first place when he got them.
I stopped buying finecast. I scoured around looking for metal models, because I'd rather have an metal model (even a slightly bent and used one) than a failcast piece of that breaks just carrying it around.
I'd rather have plastic than anything else, but I'd rather have metal than finecast garbage.
Now, I've bought a couple of finecast models here,and there (and I might have to in the future, before it gets replaced) but only because the price of that particular metal model is $$$, if you can even find it for sale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I forgot, the last new models that came in out in finecast were Hobbit models...but that line will go away in the near future..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/20 01:03:15
~6000 ~4000 ~1000
Imperial Knights: & Admech:
My finance plays
DR:70+S+G+M++B+I+Pw40k14++D+A++/sWD409R+++T(M)DM+
I do not work for GW in any fashion. When I edit my post, either I've misspelled something, punctuation, or I'm fixing swearing. Oops.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Pinning! man!
I remember the very old pewter was very soft, it didn't break, you would have a big dent in it.
I have a philosophical issue with pinning, and am of the opinion that no model GW makes requires pinning (or should require pinning). I've only pinned one model in my life - an Ogryn Bone 'Ead - and I do not intend to do it again.
Yes, that is my own stubborn problem, I realise that.
I like resin models and even have my own resin casting company, but I absolutely hate the finecast resin.
Whatever they use is pretty low grade and brittle. I suspect they are using a lot of filler material in it which is why it's so light and soft. Every finecast model that I've purchased has had serious issues with air bubbles. I work with resin extensively and I'm used to putting in a bit of work on my models but the issues with the finecast stuff were not easy repairs. I purchased a Tau Commander at the local bunker and it was full of miscasts, took it back and bought a second one which I opened there and again it had the same issues with bubbles and the jet pack was so badly aligned it was basically garbage. The manager said lets crack open stuff until we get this sorted out and we'd open a kit and take the usable pieces out. It took us a total of 5 kits to to get a suitable model and even then it needed the typical assembly care that other resin models need. (so it wasn't like I had a perfect pristine model)
I'd also bough some dark eldar kits which had partially formed weapons, missing toes etc. Given that they charge a premium for finecast those defects are not acceptable. The quality control on them is pretty bad, they also spin cast the resin which doesn't eliminate bubbles as well as using a pressure/vacuum combination. The final kiss of death is that they don't let the molds sit and cure long enough and by pulling the sprues out too soon they end up with stretched and distorted casts.
Forge World uses a much better grade of resin that isn't spin cast, which results in a more dense and durable product. I've never had any of the issues with FW resin that the finecast products are rife with. IMO the FW process and materials are vastly better.
I'm very glad that they are getting rid of finecast. I hope that they bring back the metal models as I've never had issues with GW's metals and if they plan to keep some sort of resin line I hope they adopt FW's process (and not use spin cast resin)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/20 01:47:32
Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com
I have a philosophical issue with pinning, and am of the opinion that no model GW makes requires pinning (or should require pinning). I've only pinned one model in my life - an Ogryn Bone 'Ead - and I do not intend to do it again.
There is also the problem that many of the largest models have rules saying they cannot be pinned.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: to those celebrating keep in mind this means EVERYTHING that's not plastic goes OOP.
Unless GW goes back to metal, whole sections of armies will disappear, maybe for years at a time and a lot of classic models will disappear forever.
It will be Christmas for ebay sellers and hell on everyone else.
Really well put, it's incredible that FC has been poor enough that right now people are actually pleased that some of the miniature range is not going to be available at all. It's incredible how perceptions have changed in just a few short years.
I have no time at all for the current game editions, but I've had so many character pieces from GW over the years and if this comes to pass it will be a monumental moment, and really, really sad. Really, the end of an era, because as good as plastics are and continue to be, they can't match the high-end character sculpts that are only possible in metal and resin. No amount of sprue options and easy conversions are going to change that.
Were I an Eldar player I would be panicking about what this rumored new codex might mean.
Yeah it MIGHT mean new plastic aspect warriors etc...
But it could also mean that, opps, we forgot to tell you all the aspects except Dire Avengers died off.
Have fun with your army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/20 02:03:41
jah-joshua wrote: @easysauce: i must be one of the few people in the "i love metal models" camp...
Finceast is rubbery, and warped, even when it isn't full of bubbles...
like you said, though, i would be happy if they had used FW resin, even though it can need a bit of clean-up at times, it just feels like a better quality material, for me...
Spoiler:
i was happy to avoid Finecast until recently, and am bummed that i have to use it for a couple of my current jobs...
i have a metal Thunderfire Cannon, and it goes together with no problem, but then i pin everything, in every material, since i paint all of my minis in sub-assemblies anyway...
i just got sent the Noise Marine upgrade set in Finecast, and it is warped all to hell...
thankfully, i talked my client into going with a FW Kakophoni Marine instead...
cheers
jah
I don't understand the hate for metal either, for conversions it is harder to work with, but with notfinecast you spent just as much time cleaning up the bubbles and missing detail.
Also bending something back in metal, it stays in that position. The only real bad thing about metal IMHO opinion is if you had a big army, bad for your back it weigths a ton carrying it to the store and back.
Love to see more characters in plastic like they did with the chaos lord with lots of options, but alas, mono-pose :(
I didnt hate metal, except putting it together having to pin it all and conversions suck....
I remember hating all the metal monsters for nids... super heavy peices,
finecast I can clean and so on faster then metal, the one peice models like catachans and other IG I still really like, but large metal models were a major PITA....
fine cast isnt as bad as some make it out to be, but no reason not to use FW at this point.
but hey, even FW stuff bubbles a lot I find, but they and GW always replace it for free no questions asked in my experience
A lot of the ease of assembly for metal models has to do with how they are designed. For instance, Corvus Belli's newest metals go together very, very well and require absolutely no pinning. I built my entire Anaconda TAG without pinning a single piece and it feels rock solid. Some of the newer infantry, like in Operation Icestorm, have a neat square peg thing going on to connect joints that makes assembly very easy.
I only ever bought 2 things in Finecast and they were fine. No massive flaws, but they definitely don't look as sharp as the metal equivalents. The price hike on such a dubious material is really the greatest crime.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/20 06:56:20
Dendarien wrote: I only ever bought 2 things in Finecast and they were fine. No massive flaws, but they definitely don't look as sharp as the metal equivalents. The price hike on such a dubious material is really the greatest crime.
Agree completely. None of the FineCost things I own - which is, like 4 models total - are really all that bad. The price is bad, because it's absurd that they went to a (very) cheap material yet things went up. Still, the fact that some people had to go back 5 times to get a decent model, well, it just made me not want to buy anything in FineCost, even when I adore the model (like the Undead Wight King dude with the huge axe).
I have gone out of my way to avoid buying finecast after a couple of bad experiences with it early on and have only purchased things I was going to carve up since then.
Could not be happier to see the back of it.
Anxious to see what happens to everything that's currently made in it; there's a heck of a lot of models across lines that are still finecast and I imagine that the total outlay to create plastic versions of these would be huge.
I haven't got much experience on material, but there is nothing wrong in few Finecast minis I own, and of the ~dozen or so I have observed, only one had serious casting error. All were, of course, from later patches.
I mostly prefer it to metal except for some smaller figures I think it is too brittle. Metal BFG battleships are absolute horror to assemble, paint and handle and I would have happily bought Finecast ones had they been available.
I am not that big fan of Forgeworld resin: it usually arrives in horribly warped condition, sure it is usually fixable but annoying nevertheless.
heartserenade wrote: Fiecast made me realize that GW does not care about their customers, so I stopped playing 40k soon after.
BRING BACK METAL. Or use better resin.
Then they will have a price hike to pay for replacing the machines that they threw out and to replace the masters....
And if there is any possible way for them to screw up going back to the old material then GW will find it.
The Auld Grump - bitter? Me? NO!(Well, maybe a little.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/20 12:38:04
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
3000+
3000+ 
I just have a little less animosity for the finecast, is all. I always did understand that they were more "advanced" from a hobby perspective, in that they took more time and love to get prepped. 
, the cast is flawless...
I think finecast is more advanced in the sense that you need to be a better hobbyist to make it work; I do NOT think finecast is more advanced (than metal or plastic) in the sense that it is better. The tons of tiny parts thing really came with the advent of finecast, and has now carried over into plastic (to a slightly lesser degree... but not by much). I don't mind all the parts if it's to solve a problem (like undercuts).
~6000 
~4000 
~1000
