Is decurion too good?

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**Rezolut**

Why everyone says thats wraits in decurion have +4 RP?

Canoptek harvest rules:
Adaptive Subroutines: At the start of each of the controlling player’s Movement phases,
choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek
Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek
Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start
of the controlling player’s next Movement phase.

Decurion rules:
Ever-living: Models in this Detachment with the Reanimation Protocols special rule receive
a +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls. Models in this Detachment with the Living Metal
rule ignore the effects of Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken (but still lose a Hull Point).

Canoptek harvest formation just benefit from the effects of the chosen rule but dont give that RULE - so wraits have only +5 RP

**docdoom77**

Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.

It's pretty clear.

**krodarklorr**

buddha wrote:
Considering Necron have no real counter to the top builds of Adlance, Centstar, and FMC spam (demons and tyranids) no, nothing about decurion comes close to bring overpowered or cheesy.

We do have counters to it, just no one uses them.

**Suicidal.Simian**

I'm not so sure Doc. Rezolut might be on to something. This may be a case of RAW. Good luck getting any Necron players on board with this type of reasoning.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

krodarklorr wrote:
buddha wrote:
Considering Necron have no real counter to the top builds of Adlance, Centstar, and FMC spam (demons and tyranids) no, nothing about decurion comes close to bring overpowered or cheesy.

We do have counters to it, just no one uses them.

Roll more sixes. You can wound anything and glance anything with your basic weapons. Scarabs, while somewhat easy to kill, can also wreck any vehicle with a little bit of good dice rolling.

**LordBlades**

docdoom77 wrote:
Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.

It's pretty clear.

Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.

**krodarklorr**

Suicidal.Simian wrote:
I'm not so sure Doc. Rezolut might be on to something. This may be a case of RAW. Good luck getting any Necron players on board with this type of reasoning.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

krodarklorr wrote:
buddha wrote:
Considering Necron have no real counter to the top builds of Adlance, Centstar, and FMC spam (demons and tyranids) no, nothing about decurion comes close to bring overpowered or cheesy.

We do have counters to it, just no one uses them.

Roll more sixes. You can wound anything and glance anything with your basic weapons. Scarabs, while somewhat easy to kill, can also wreck any vehicle with a little bit of good dice rolling.

That is true. I can't tell you how many games I've played where there was a drought of 6s. However, what I was referring to are things like Doom Scythes and Doomsday Arks. Centurions would crumble to S10, and the AP1 with Primary Weapon/Lance could do a number on Knights as well, well Gauss flanks their shield.

**Jaceevoke**

LordBlades wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.

It's pretty clear.

Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.

How has no one noticed that in the months its been out!

**Szeras**

Jaceevoke wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.

It's pretty clear.

Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.

How has no one noticed that in the months its been out!

Adaptive Subroutines: At the start of each of the controlling player's movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next movement phase.

That needs to be FAQed. For fair play, I'd say that they cannot benefit from RP bonuses from any source and instead are really just getting a FNP 5+ that is reduced to a 6+ by ID.

**Boniface**

Ok, so wraiths don't get 4+++ RP. Everyone is acting like wraiths are the big problem in the codex. They're just a tough distraction unit cause they're fast so you have to concentrate on them and they're pretty durable.

The necron player still gets an across the board 4+++ with reroll of 1s. Then they can possibly get back up. That is far more significant as you just can't kill average guys.

If it was a standard FNP it wouldn't be so harsh at least it could be negated some times. As it is, the best off is 5+++.

You can't even reliably drown then in wounds.
Average weapons are Ap5 so they'll get a potential 3 save rolls with a chance to get back up.

Obviously this is just a decurion but even regular armies are going to be ludacrisly tough.

**Zen117**

I really hate Decurion :( But, I have to admit that I'm not really a great player. My AM army just gets butthurt by it.

**krodarklorr**

Szeras wrote:
Jaceevoke wrote:
LordBlades wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.

It's pretty clear.

Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.

How has no one noticed that in the months its been out!

Adaptive Subroutines: At the start of each of the controlling player's movement phases, choose one of the following special rules: Fleet, Reanimation Protocols, Shred. The Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects of the chosen special rule until the start of the controlling player's next movement phase.

That needs to be FAQed. For fair play, I'd say that they cannot benefit from RP bonuses from any source and instead are really just getting a FNP 5+ that is reduced to a 6+ by ID.

Yeah, certainly needs an FAQ, along with a ton of other things with this codex.

But it's weird though, as there are so little instances, if any, that you benefit from a special rule without actually having the special rule.

**Boniface**

I'd imagine it's intentional so that they're not massively OP. GW do know some stuff you know.

**docdoom77**

LordBlades wrote:
docdoom77 wrote:
Um.... no. They are part of the decurion. If you give them Reanimation Protocols, then those protocols gain the +1 from being in the Decurion.

It's pretty clear.

Except they don't get the Reanimation Protocol rule. They get the effect of the Reanimation Protocol rule. RAW I think Rezolut is right.

Maybe. That's pretty iffy to me. I know it wouldn't fly where I play. An FAQ would be nice. Cleaner language would be even better, but that's not gonna happen.

**Requizen**

Boniface wrote:
Ok, so wraiths don't get 4+++ RP. Everyone is acting like wraiths are the big problem in the codex. They're just a tough distraction unit cause they're fast so you have to concentrate on them and they're pretty durable.

The necron player still gets an across the board 4+++ with reroll of 1s. Then they can possibly get back up. That is far more significant as you just can't kill average guys.

If it was a standard FNP it wouldn't be so harsh at least it could be negated some times. As it is, the best off is 5+++.

You can't even reliably drown then in wounds.
Average weapons are Ap5 so they'll get a potential 3 save rolls with a chance to get back up.

Obviously this is just a decurion but even regular armies are going to be ludacrisly tough.

Untrue. The rerolling 1s is only within 12" of the Overlord of the Reclamation Legion, and only for models in the Reclamation Legion. Models from other formations in the Decurion do not get the reroll (but do get the 4+++)

Necrons are a very strong army now. Everything is very durable and we have a lot of power units. However, we do have our weaknesses. Necrons lack a lot of specialist weapons - no real Melta options (Acanthrites from Forgeworld, but they're not that good), middling range on everything except a couple (mediocre) units, relatively low mobility aside from Flyers and a couple specialist units, and across the board low initiatives which is more damaging in Assault than people make it out to be. Aside from our dedicated Assault units, the rest of our army is easily swept by things that hit hard and fast. All vehicles are open topped, and therefore easy to pop or render otherwise useless by anti-tank weaponry. We also lack good anti-air options short of allies or taking a fortification. Scythes are our only real options in that regard.

Are Necrons a top-tier army? Yes, we can hold our own against many top lists. Are they the best in the game? I would argue not by a long shot. There's nothing that makes them particularly better than Daemons, Eldar, Flyrantspam, or in many cases Tau and certain Space Marine builds. For casual play, though, I can see how it might be a bit more difficult to deal with. They are, indeed, an army that it's really easy to be good as, and that are difficult to deal with for someone not being "tryhard".

This is probably due to the fact that the entire book has very good internal balance. No unit, aside from a few of the vehicles, seem to be "bad". It's easy for someone with, say, a CSM book to choose models they like and do poorly with them because they're not that great - there's only a few models in CSM that pull their own weight. It's actually difficult to look at the Necron book and create a list that doesn't work - everything compliments one another very well and everything is usable in nearly every situation.

**Yoyoyo**

Well, there's a lot of factors that make Necrons strong. Versatility, resiliency, good codex balance, no real "single point of failure" like a CCS throwing out orders, and of course breaking the meta by demanding a lot of AP3/AP4 weapons, Deathstar-level assault, Instant Death to deal with the 2W/T5 units , and bodies to absorb damage and last the game.

Tournament players with a good sense of timing can hold their own, but it's going to be hard for regular players who've been building lists with a lot of AP1/AP2 shooting and elite units to adapt.

Listing off their theoretical weaknesses is nice, but it makes no difference unless people can practically target them. Play some list swaps, I'm sure you'll notice why some players are frustrated.

**Orock**

Recursion with or without wraith spam is the new wave serpent spam.

**AllSeeingSkink**

Boniface wrote:
I'd imagine it's intentional so that they're not massively OP. GW do know some stuff you know.

Given how poorly worded so many other rules are, I highly doubt they knew what they were doing with this one.

You're also going to struggle during a game with an unknown opponent to convince them "benefits of special rule" is not the same as "having the special rule".

**Jancoran**

Vaktathi wrote:
Icelord wrote:
I am having a heck of a time vs decurion. It's everywhere in my local meta. Does it having glaring weaknesses?
As noted, you don't get ObSec, and you can't hamfist in quite as many wraiths as easily as you can with a straight CAD (though you can make them much more resilient). I have yet to see ObSec make a consistent game changer so I don't see it as a glaring weakness that isn't *more* than made up for by the Decurion benefits, but that's just me.

I have yet to see a Decurion lose a game.

I won my last game against a Decurion Necron force 15-1. I used the Canoptek Harvest and a normal CAD. Objective Secured got me 6 of those points that otherwise wouldnt have been mine.

EDIT: I have played against a Decurion 4 times. I have not lost to a Decurion yet. I also fought them with a Highlander Tau force and a normal Necron force with basically Warriors, an Obelisk and a couple Monoliths. so at this stage I am 4-0 against Decurion.

I found the games to be extremely "molasses in winter" like, but in the end I also saw that WITHOUT the Decurion, I might have blown them out worse. So I won't say it's a fun experience Desperately trying to break the enemy by killing two dudes total on a charge (maybe) and breaking them on 7's (eventually) but I have a hard time condemning it also, since it hasn't actually succeeded in stopping me.

Jut input.

**Vaktathi**

Jancoran wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Icelord wrote:
I am having a heck of a time vs decurion. It's everywhere in my local meta. Does it having glaring weaknesses?
As noted, you don't get ObSec, and you can't hamfist in quite as many wraiths as easily as you can with a straight CAD (though you can make them much more resilient). I have yet to see ObSec make a consistent game changer so I don't see it as a glaring weakness that isn't *more* than made up for by the Decurion benefits, but that's just me.

I have yet to see a Decurion lose a game.

I won my last game against a Decurion Necron force 15-1. I used the Canoptek Harvest and a normal CAD. Objective Secured got me 6 of those points that otherwise wouldnt have been mine.

To refer back to my earlier statement, in this example, ObSec doesn't appear to have been a game changer.

At absolute best, assuming they'd have been able to claim (and not just contest) each of those other objectives, they'd have still lost, 7 to your 9, and thus, the lack of ObSec would not have have changed who won that game.

That said, Necron vs Necron is going to minimize the advantages of the Decurion relative to other armies given that you're still getting RP and other formation bonuses, just not quite as strong.

**Jancoran**

Well Obsec DID pay off in some of the other games though. It WAS the game when I played with the Warrior list.

I don't know why people undervalue Obsec so much but I think that the overwhelming wish to maximize the toys you get to play with has more to do with that perception than reality.

My Highlander Tau incidentally definitely owe many wins to that rule. Tau crumble rather easily when given the chance, despite their firepower. None of them are tougher than nearly any enemy arrayed against them. But being in the right place at games nd plays big with my Tau force.

But thats off the subject. I think my main main point here was that Decurion is neither unbeatable nor has the Decurion element been enough yet. I am sure there will be games they win because of the Decurion. but thats fair. They are trying to win also. Their special stuff SHOULD matter once in a while.

There's going to be an adjustment period, like always. I think Melee more and more proves its worth in 7E. Breaking Necron Morale is a great way to go.

**wuestenfux**

krodarklorr wrote:
jy2 wrote:

Keep in mind that I tend to look at things from a competitive perspective (i.e. tournament perspective). With that said, let me ask you, how does the Decurion deal with units like this:

Massed flyrants/FMC daemons
Wraithknights
Massed wave serpents
Massed 2+ save units (i.e. riptides + broadsides, centstar, dreadknights)
Invisible deathstars
Daemon summoning
Wraithknights
2+ cover (i.e. Tyranids)
Massed bikers/White Scars
Another Decurion
Adlance Knights
Void Shields (most large US tournaments are ruling that gauss does nothing to Void Shields)
Fast deathstars (i.e. TWC wolfstar, seer council, daemons)
Shooty deathstars (i.e. centstar, farsight-bomb)

Sure, it's got some mobility, but can the core army - the Reclamation troops - get away from MTO (maximum threat overload) and other very aggressive lists? How are you getting past board control armies like Adlance knights, fast MTO daemons, greentide orks protected by a Void Shield Generator, TWC space wolves, the seer council, White Scars bikers, wraithspam or scarab-farm Necrons and so on? Those types of armies can control where your units will go and either eliminate your mobile units or lock them in place with assault. At least with the previous Necrons, they don't have to really worry about these types of armies because they can just drop out of their night scythes onto any objectives on T5. But with the new iteration of crons, night scythes, just like annihilation barges, are a rarity nowadays. People just don't run them like they used to and thus, the new generation of Necron players in general will have a harder time against these types of armies than they used to. Yeah, they may have the resiliency to survive them, but the fact is, they won't be able to advance against these types of armies and therefore, are at an inherent disadvantage against these types of armies in Objectives-based scenarios.

Aaaaand this is why I don't even bother with the competitive setting. Adlance is stupid, and Invisible Deathstars shouldn't be a thing, but GW thought that would be a nice touch to the game. Also, why the hell would US tournaments rule that Gauss does nothing to Void Shields? That just doesn't even make sense, and gimps Necrons as a whole. That is how we deal with armor, after all. The point is, Necrons don't have cheese (Wraithspam isn't as viable as it used to be, the Decurion is restrictive, and we lack Psychic powers), and therefor will never completely dominate the tournament scene, where cheese and cheap exploitations is all that wins games. So why bother comparing Necrons, or any single army in itself (since it's mostly armies allied with other things, such as knights), to the competitive setting? Necrons alone have the most internal balance, and in a casual setting, or even a lower, friendly tournament scene, are very strong, if not too strong.

But, for the sake or argument, lets take a look at some of the things you listed, just for sheer fun.

Massed Flyrants/FMC daemons - Flyrants chuck out S6 shooting, but thats about it. Bring 2-3 Night Scythes and you shouldn't have much of an issue, as your infantry probably won't take too much damage over the course of the game from it. Also, Daemons typically do, what, fly around and cast psychic powers? Ignore them.
Wraithknights - Everything in our book can now hurt it. Literally. And the Destroyer Cult would shred through them.
Wave Serpents - They will do what, exactly, to Wraiths? Not a lot, especially is someone is bringing a ton of Tomb Blades with those Wraiths.
2+ save units - Heavy Destroyers are much more common now. Also, Riptides aren't a threat, they are completely ignorable. And broadsides aren't too difficult to get to run off the board.
Invisible Deathstars - Trying to figure out what Necrons would do against this is pointless, as what would anything do to this. This power should not exist in the game.
Daemon Summoning - From what I've seen, not really a huge threat in general. Are people still using this as a primary list idea in tournaments?
2+ Cover - Tomb Blades
Massed Bikers - Shoot them. Or Wraiths. Take your pick.
Another Decurion - I have to admit, that would be tough. I'm not sure how you'd deal with that. Guess it depends on who brought what.
Adlance Knights - Necrons have the tools to deal with these, as broken as it is. Would it be easy? Probably not. But certainly possible. Flank them and avoid shields. Boom.
Void Shields - Again, thats slowed that Gauss doesn't hurt it. I would just not even participate in a tournament if that was the case.
Fast Deathstars - TWC? Umm, Wraiths. I keep saying Wraiths because thats what people typically bring in competitive lists, but yes. Wraiths.
Shooty Deathstars - Necrons have plenty of tools for these, you just wouldn't see them in a competitive setting. That being said, Wraiths.

So, you might not think they're the most competitive, but they have answers to most, if not all of the things you listed. And once Eldar and Space Marines get toned down (yes, I'm that confident) we'll see a lot less of the stuff on that list.

Here I'm with Klorr all the time.
There is essentially nothing Necrons cannot deal with bar invisibility.

**harkequin**

There is essentially nothing Necrons cannot deal with bar invisibility.

I'd still disagree that we can reliably handle adlance.

"flank the shields" , short of bringing 3x 15 warriors in nightscythes that's not happening regularly. A lance can protect each others unshielded sides rather easily, especially as their threat range equals our maximum range.

"gauss it to death, weight of fire" , we're talking over 70 warriors in rapid fire range, to drown out an adlance knight, because if you don't kill it in 1 volly, it will charge you and it will sweep you, potentially killing half of the squad beside you for good measure.

If you tailor a list exactly to do it, you might be able to. Maybe bring a fethload of destroyer/Hdestroyers, and a ton of tachyon arrows.

Necrons are the potentially the best army to deal with one knight, and potentially the worst to deal with 3.

I should probably add, there are like 3 things we can't handle, Invisibility/Ad lance/ Dreadknights. That's about it. We have tools to deal with any of them, but can't bring enough outside of being prepared for that list. At least we only have a list of 3 things. We just laugh off most ranged fire.

**krodarklorr**

harkequin wrote:
There is essentially nothing Necrons cannot deal with bar invisibility.

I'd still disagree that we can reliably handle adlance.

"flank the shields" , short of bringing 3x 15 warriors in nightscythes that's not happening regularly. A lance can protect each others unshielded sides rather easily, especially as their threat range equals our maximum range.

"gauss it to death, weight of fire" , we're talking over 70 warriors in rapid fire range, to drown out an adlance knight, because if you don't kill it in 1 volly, it will charge you and it will sweep you, potentially killing half of the squad beside you for good measure.

If you tailor a list exactly to do it, you might be able to. Maybe bring a fethload of destroyer/Hdestroyers, and a ton of tachyon arrows.

Necrons are the potentially the best army to deal with one knight, and potentially the worst to deal with 3.

I should probably add, there are like 3 things we can't handle, Invisibility/Ad lance/ Dreadknights. That's about it. We have tools to deal with any of them, but can't bring enough outside of being prepared for that list. At least we only have a list of 3 things. We just laugh off most ranged fire.

Most armies cannot deal with Invisibility. Adlance is still stupid, but depending on what you bring (Wraiths and Destroyer Cult would do well) you'd have a decent chance. And Dreadknights, well, lets look at it from a more competitive view. Most people are now bringing Canoptek Harvests and Destroyer Cults. Heavy Destroyers would destroy them (derp). And a Destroyer lord with the Voidreaper would do most of the damage in CC. Some people are even bringing Judicator Battalions, so Twin-linked AP2 with Shred will destroy them as well. And outside of competitive, Nightbringer would eat a Dreadknight alive.

**changemod**

harkequin wrote:
I should probably add, there are like 3 things we can't handle, Invisibility/Ad lance/ Dreadknights. That's about it. We have tools to deal with any of them, but can't bring enough outside of being prepared for that list. At least we only have a list of 3 things. We just laugh off most ranged fire.

Dreadknights have never been a serious threat to Necrons, even before the new codex. Short of invisibility abuse, Grey Knights in general are an easy prospect: Hard alpha strike bounces off our durability, then their firepower declines turn by turn until they stop being any sort of threat.

**harkequin**

The main issue of dreadknights is their mobility. The Nightbringer would create a nice buffer zone, but unfortunately not seen too often.

I list them as a problem mainly because they are the biggest issue for warriors. They are the one thing warriors consistently fear, 1/36 hits do any damage to them, and with a 24" assault threat range (reasonably 18-20) , if we can touch them they can sweep us with WS5 master crafted ID AP2 attacks. A dreadknight can consistently deal with warriors (who lets face it, are our bread and butter at the moment).

When facing 3 of them in a list, good luck having enough Hdestroyers to cut through 4 wounds before it gets close enough to make its points back, all this not including it's AP4 shooting, which can be a moderate nuisance for some units.

A judicator battalion can deal with it, but it's still a heavy investment, heavy enough that you cant include it in a TAC list really, it has to be central to your army, same with destroyer cult. You can't just "throw it in" in case of a dreadknight.

My main point is it requires specific tools to deal with, If you know 3 are coming, you can butcher them, but it requires you to tailor to a list, you probably won't have the specific tools ready in a lot of your lists. It's one of the Tradeoffs of decurion, you can't throw in some Praets to deal with it, for less than 400 points.

DKs are beatable, i just rank them as one of our more concerning enemies, we can tank anything else, 5 flyrants? oh no, i might temporarily lose 2 dudes. 5 2+sv MCs jumping to my lines, i may need new pants.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wraiths will still handle them though, they're just scary for warriors.

**Talys**

krodarklorr wrote:

Most armies cannot deal with Invisibility. Adlance is still stupid, but depending on what you bring (Wraiths and Destroyer Cult would do well) you'd have a decent chance. And Dreadknights, well, lets look at it from a more competitive view. Most people are now bringing Canoptek Harvests and Destroyer Cults. Heavy Destroyers would destroy them (derp). And a Destroyer lord with the Voidreaper would do most of the damage in CC. Some people are even bringing Judicator Battalions, so Twin-linked AP2 with Shred will destroy them as well. And outside of competitive, Nightbringer would eat a Dreadknight alive.

Well, yeah -- invisibility is the most broken/overpowered aspect of the game and is nerfed in some tournaments, so it's a terrible "vulnerability".

At the end of the day, though, Necron can be frustrating to beat, and if your opponent is using a list that's frustrating for a "conventional" or friendly list, there's nothing wrong with choosing models that exploit even more overpowered aspects of the game.

**krodarklorr**

harkequin wrote:
The main issue of dreadknights is their mobility. The Nightbringer would create a nice buffer zone, but unfortunately not seen too often.

I list them as a problem mainly because they are the biggest issue for warriors. They are the one thing warriors consistently fear, 1/36 hits do any damage to them, and with a 24" assault threat range (reasonably 18-20) , if we can touch them they can sweep us with WS5 master crafted ID AP2 attacks. A dreadknight can consistently deal with warriors (who lets face it, are our bread and butter at the moment).

When facing 3 of them in a list, good luck having enough Hdestroyers to cut through 4 wounds before it gets close enough to make its points back, all this not including it's AP4 shooting, which can be a moderate nuisance for some units.

A judicator battalion can deal with it, but it's still a heavy investment, heavy enough that you cant include it in a TAC list really, it has to be central to your army, same with destroyer cult. You can't just "throw it in" in case of a dreadknight.

My main point is it requires specific tools to deal with, If you know 3 are coming, you can butcher them, but it requires you to tailor to a list, you probably won't have the specific tools ready in a lot of your lists. It's one of the Tradeoffs of decurion, you can't throw in some Praets to deal with it, for less than 400 points.

DKs are beatable, i just rank them as one of our more concerning enemies, we can tank anything else, 5 flyrants? oh no, i might temporarily lose 2 dudes. 5 2+sv MCs jumping to my lines, i may need new pants.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wraiths will still handle them though, they're just scary for warriors.

Well yeah, warriors are vulnerable. But, most of the time they're in Ghost Arks, so it's not as easy for them to be shot at until the Ark explodes, and aside from melee, Dreadknights can't effectively kill our vehicles. Much less anything else Grey Knights have.

**harkequin**

Well yeah, warriors are vulnerable. But, most of the time they're in Ghost Arks, so it's not as easy for them to be shot at until the Ark explodes, and aside from melee, Dreadknights can't effectively kill our vehicles. Much less anything else Grey Knights have.

Well to be fair, it's not exactly in a vacuum, i mean , the sort of list running 3 DKs is probably running some grav cents or something as well.

DKs just exploit our main weakness, getting swept in assault, they're one of the few things that can reliably get to us, stay intact, and sweep us, everything else we can intercept with lychguard, or straight up shoot to bits before it gets near us. It's the deadly combo of mobility,durability and raw power.

**Skullhammer**

And dont forget no escape on the arks so the dk can still fry upto 6 warriors then cc the ark.

**wuestenfux**

Skullhammer wrote:
And dont forget no escape on the arks so the dk can still fry upto 6 warriors then cc the ark.

NDKs can be a pain.
However, they are not invincible with four wounds each.
Wraiths can tarpit them.