Things my Ultramarine friend has claimed...

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**MechaEmperor7000**

Ah yes I remember the Medusa Campaign.

How we did all the legwork but magically lost the space battle we didn't even know was going on just so the loyalists could claim "moral victory".

**Experiment 626**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Ah yes I remember the Medusa Campaign.

How we did all the legwork but magically lost the space battle we didn't even know was going on just so the loyalists could claim "moral victory".

You mean the Eye of Terror campaign?!

It wasn't that we "didn't know" about the BFG mirror campaign that went on, it was simply that GW (or rather Jervis) never 'updated' the Chaos fleet rules. Only Imperials, Eldar, Tyranids & Necrons got overhauled, while Chaos & Orks got left in the dust.
IIRC, I remember hearing a lot of gak about FW's Tau rules as well.

**master of ordinance**

Selym wrote:
As it turns out;

Spoiler:

Plus

Equals

Lovely, and looks scary but watch out for Vindicators, Typhons, Dakka preds, HB Devs, etc.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Experiment 626 wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Ah yes I remember the Medusa Campaign.

How we did all the legwork but magically lost the space battle we didn't even know was going on just so the loyalists could claim "moral victory".

You mean the Eye of Terror campaign?!

It wasn't that we "didn't know" about the BFG mirror campaign that went on, it was simply that GW (or rather Jervis) never 'updated' the Chaos fleet rules. Only Imperials, Eldar, Tyranids & Necrons got overhauled, while Chaos & Orks got left in the dust.
IIRC, I remember hearing a lot of gak about FW's Tau rules as well.

I was talking about the Medusa V campaign, which ended similarly but didn't have BFG mirror campaign going on.

**master of ordinance**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Ah yes I remember the Medusa Campaign.

How we did all the legwork but magically lost the space battle we didn't even know was going on just so the loyalists could claim "moral victory".

You mean the Eye of Terror campaign?!

It wasn't that we "didn't know" about the BFG mirror campaign that went on, it was simply that GW (or rather Jervis) never 'updated' the Chaos fleet rules. Only Imperials, Eldar, Tyranids & Necrons got overhauled, while Chaos & Orks got left in the dust.
IIRC, I remember hearing a lot of gak about FW's Tau rules as well.

I was talking about the Medusa V campaign, which ended similarly but didn't have BFG mirror campaign going on.

either way, rather than advance the story and actually have something interesting happen they choose to prop up the imperium again.

**Pouncey**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Ah yes I remember the Medusa Campaign.

How we did all the legwork but magically lost the space battle we didn't even know was going on just so the loyalists could claim "moral victory".

You mean the Eye of Terror campaign?!

It wasn't that we "didn't know" about the BFG mirror campaign that went on, it was simply that GW (or rather Jervis) never 'updated' the Chaos fleet rules. Only Imperials, Eldar, Tyranids & Necrons got overhauled, while Chaos & Orks got left in the dust.
IIRC, I remember hearing a lot of gak about FW's Tau rules as well.

I was talking about the Medusa V campaign, which ended similarly but didn't have BFG mirror campaign going on.

Meanwhile, the Sisters of Battle continued to do very little despite outnumbering Loyalist Space Marines 10,000 to 1. And Space Marines continued to show up to wars by the company load and occasionally a complete Chapter. I mean, what's the point of their low numbers spreading them thin if they just show up to every war ever by the hundreds?

either way, rather than advance the story and actually have something interesting happen they choose to prop up the imperium again.

Also when they released Tau, they did a campaign set in Tau space. The actual campaign results would've wiped out the Tau territories and probably the Tau altogether, but GW decided that it wouldn't do to wipe out the race they just created, so they fudged the results.

And every tabletop gamer friggin hates it when you fudge the results. I mean, imagine if your opponent simply adjusted the score at the end of the game to make it so they win regardless of what happened in the game. That's basically what GW did with the campaigns.

**Experiment 626**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Ah yes I remember the Medusa Campaign.

How we did all the legwork but magically lost the space battle we didn't even know was going on just so the loyalists could claim "moral victory".

You mean the Eye of Terror campaign?!

It wasn't that we "didn't know" about the BFG mirror campaign that went on, it was simply that GW (or rather Jervis) never 'updated' the Chaos fleet rules. Only Imperials, Eldar, Tyranids & Necrons got overhauled, while Chaos & Orks got left in the dust.
IIRC, I remember hearing a lot of gak about FW's Tau rules as well.

I was talking about the Medusa V campaign, which ended similarly but didn't have BFG mirror campaign going on.

My bad... I pretty much ignored the entirety of that one, as I was still mad as hell over how GW (or rather Jervis) completely erased everything from the EoT campaign because we didn't let the Muhreens win.
All I recall of Medusa V was the hilariously stupid, "everybody's a winner this time!" BS ending they wrote.

@Pouncey; I really feel for Sisters players. As I Chaos player, I know what it's like to get little to no support, and/or nothing but constant re-hashing of garbage rules with a playstyle that's still stuck in 3rd edition.

As for gamers hating GW re-writing things after the fact, and/or fixing the results of campaigns? Well, I'm sure Loyalist players don't mind it too much, since they're the ones inevitably on the winning end all the time!

**MechaEmperor7000**

The Medusa V campaign was just badly thought out through and through. It was suppose to be in the final standard day of the 41st millenium and I hazard to guess the reason GW is now retconning things is because they realized you can't still call it "warhammer 40k" when you've canonically gotten to the last second of the last minute of the last hour of the last day of that millenium.

**Pouncey**

Experiment 626 wrote:
@Pouncey; I really feel for Sisters players. As I Chaos player, I know what it's like to get little to no support, and/or nothing but constant re-hashing of garbage rules with a playstyle that's still stuck in 3rd edition.

As for gamers hating GW re-writing things after the fact, and/or fixing the results of campaigns? Well, I'm sure Loyalist players don't mind it too much, since they're the ones inevitably on the winning end all the time!

Also we actually lose models in our model range without getting anything new.

Unless you count Inquisition models that already existed as "new".

I think the Tau campaign ending with Tau survival actually resulted in the Imperium losing, but the alternative was that the brand-new faction GW launched a new model range for get wiped out in the lore.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The Medusa V campaign was just badly thought out through and through. It was suppose to be in the final standard day of the 41st millenium and I hazard to guess the reason GW is now retconning things is because they realized you can't still call it "warhammer 40k" when you've canonically gotten to the last second of the last minute of the last hour of the last day of that millenium.

On those grounds the title is also incorrect because it is no longer a science fantasy version of Warhammer.

**SNAAAAKE**

Selym wrote:
I have a friend. He has played Ultramarines since 4th edition. He plays 40k regularly, and has fought against a wide variety of opponents. He rarely loses, and has a fairly large SM collection. Average marine player in a competitive environment

He's also a nutcase with no understanding of how 40k works. Average marine player in a competitive environment

Meet Dave. I'm calling him Dave so that if he comes across this thread, he won't have a fit. (He's not really called Dave)

Dave, in my numerous conversations with him, has made a large number of statements regarding what he feels is underpowered and overpowered in the current edition of 40k. Here, I shall detail just some of his claims. What will follow will be a unit or wargear name, followed by some points that he feels make it either overpowered or underpowered.

Overpowered:

Spoiler:

Imperial Guardsmen
-You can take three per Tactical Marine
-They get orders that ignore cover and double their shots
-Easy target saturation

Vindicare Assassins
-Can one-shot space marines.
-Too tough to kill at W3, T4 and 4++
Has a shot type that can injure Land Raiders

The entire CSM codex
-They are C:SM with extra buffs
-Ap3 spam
-T5 spam
-Invuln spam
-Can do everything Space Marines do
-The standard CSM is the same as a Tactical Marine, but with a free ccw to add to their bolt pistol
wat

Swooping Hawks
-18" movement is unfair
Don't let him play against Harlequins
Leman Russ Battle Tanks
-S8 Ap3 Large Blast spam is unfair
-Av14 spam
-Can shoot on the move
-Doesn't care that he's never seen one live past T2
-Even that time I used five

Baneblades
-It's 3x LRBT
And costs a shedload of points and easily the biggest target in any guard game
IG Veterans
-Meltagun spam

Vendetta
-Lascannon spam on a hard-to-kill platform

Carnifex
-Chews up tanks (he cannot understand why it hits rear armour, still hasn't gotten over it)
Carnifexes are designed for this, yes?
Eldar Guardians
-They have an unfair advantage by being able to shoot and run in the same turn
-Can add to psyker spam with Warlocks

Anything from Forgeworld
-Literally all of it
-It bypasses "normal" 40k rules
-FW can't write balanced rules
-Will not discuss this further
Despite Space Marines having more ForgeWorld support than any other race right now, hell, he also has 18 legions, 3 flavours of mechanicum and 31st Millenium guard to choose from!
Emperor's Champion (BT)
-I've used it to slaughter his favourite units numerous times
-I5 S6 Ap2!?!?!?!
Not the worst thing I've encountered, but for his points, EC is worth it, even speaking as someone who doesn't play BT.

Underpowered:

Spoiler:

Tactical Marines
-He's right though
-Will not shut up about it

[b]Grav-Cannon Devastators
-Too short range
-They lose firepower if they move
Skyhammer lad.
Predators
-They can be killed in melee
-They lose firepower if they move
Don't use Space Marine tanks unless its a Legion Tank/Spartan
Sternguard
-Especially in Kill Team
-They are more expensive Tactical Marines, but die just as easily
But they can be taken in a formation, pump 15 grav shots into a MC and then dakka the rest down with boltguns WITH special ammo.
Anything with a 2+ save
-Doesn't understand how he sometimes fails 2+ saves
-Starts tearing up when he does
-Everything has Ap2 now
Sad really, though ask any Marine or FSE player how easy it is to fudge a 3+
Darnath Lysander
-Got less powerful since 5E
Never seen Lysander on the board for more than a turn, even in Legacy matches.

My views are in yellow ^^^^

**Verviedi**

Don't do that. Use multiquotes.

**Fifty**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The Medusa V campaign was just badly thought out through and through. It was suppose to be in the final standard day of the 41st millenium and I hazard to guess the reason GW is now retconning things is because they realized you can't still call it "warhammer 40k" when you've canonically gotten to the last second of the last minute of the last hour of the last day of that millenium.

I don't see why not. The British comic, 2000AD was created in 1977, but kept the name 2000AD when it surprisingly made it into the new millennium!

**Purifier**

Fifty wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
The Medusa V campaign was just badly thought out through and through. It was suppose to be in the final standard day of the 41st millenium and I hazard to guess the reason GW is now retconning things is because they realized you can't still call it "warhammer 40k" when you've canonically gotten to the last second of the last minute of the last hour of the last day of that millenium.

I don't see why not. The British comic, 2000AD was created in 1977, but kept the name 2000AD when it surprisingly made it into the new millennium!

Plus, the fact that we know how the millenia ends doesn't mean we can't still play out earlier battles in it. 30k isn't invalidated by the existance of 40k.

**Selym**

Just ran the numbers through Dave for the Vindicare Assassin;

Less than 50% chance to do anything at all; 7.5% chance to inflict 3 wounds to a SM captain, ignoring Look Out Sir.

Still thinks that a T4 W3 4++ model is hard for him to kill, didn't acknowledge that Vindy is terrible for his points.

**xlDuke**

I want to smoke what Dave is smoking

**Selym**

He's gotta be on warp dust.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
His view on 40k:

Spoiler:

**Wolfblade**

Did you show him any math on how many bolters it will take to put the vindi down? With a drop pod and a 5 man tac squad landing within 12", you'll deal 2.33 wounds, for ~45 points less. Toss in a plas gun and it goes up to 2.55 for 30pts cheaper. Or just add another 2 marines instead to deal on average 3 wounds from 18 shots (including the SB from the droppod, and assuming he wasn't in 4+ cover with his stealth)

Or, a single metla gun shot has a 27% chance to kill him out right, and a trilas pred has a 87.6% chance to kill him in one go, while costing only 140pts. Toss in a hunter missile and one tri las pred will deal 1.15 unsaved wounds, all at S8 or greater.

Or sternguard. Hellfire ammo and a storm bolter from a drop pod will deal 3.11 wounds, while only being 145pt iirc.

**Selym**

I pointed out the Predator one to him, as he has three available, but he was adamant that it's unfair that he would have to "waste" his anti-armour weapons on one model.

He seems to be only able to understand one component of the game at a time, rather than view the system as a whole.

Major complaints from him against the Vindy:
-BS8 is high
-*Can* remove a SM Captain in one turn
-Takes AT firepower to remove one infantry model (he seems to not understand that this isn't a basic human)

But he only discusses these things as though they were separate entities, and not part of a greater whole.

-BS8 and a chance to multi-wound is cool, but by the time you've gone through 3 dice rolls, the odds of anything happening drop sharply. Multiple mechanics working together degrade the on-paper effectiveness.
-Using AT firepower to kill an INF model is worth it if the infantry is valuable enough, there is a whole conversation about cause and effect you can go into when evaluating this.

**Wolfblade**

Did you attempt to show him the sternguard/tac marines? Or what even vanguard vets (one of the worse units in the codex) can do when they charge the vindi? Or scouts? Imean, they can infil 18" away, move 6" and be in rapid fire range. Results get better if a UM tactic is used for shooting (tac or dev)

**Selym**

Didn't have long enough pf a conversation to get into it sadly.

**Wolfblade**

Ahy ok. Try bringing those up then. He can't complain about tacs or sternguard being used to kill an infantry model, unless he expects to kill it with one model too.

Also express to him that if the vindi can kill a captain in one shot, then las cannons must be too. Or grav cannons. Or MLs, as if the captain isn't on a bike, he'll be ID'd.

**Pouncey**

I believe I've located Dave's problem. He expects the gameplay to be fully in line with the lore. He's treating his anti-tank/MC weapons as being wasted when used on high-point-cost infantry. That only makes sense from a lore perspective.

You should probably try to point out to him that the game is balanced completely differently from the lore, because the game wouldn't be fun for anyone if Marines just wrecked everything they came across (a guaranteed victory is just as boring in a strategy game as a guaranteed loss is frustrating).

Point out to him that even though Marines do win their battles and are crazy-resilient and -killy a hell of a lot in the lore, in the tabletop game they can and do lose a lot simply because the game wouldn't be fun if they win all the time.

Somehow you've got to get him to be able to separate the Marines' power on the tabletop from the Marines' power in the lore. Because they absolutely are not the same.

**Selym**

I may just try that

**Pouncey**

Selym wrote:
I may just try that

Identifying the problem is the first step to solving it.

Though sometimes solving a problem is considered impossible. There's a class of computer problems like that which pops up sometimes. Solving any one of them would solve all of them, but no one's ever been able to solve one before, and people have spent years upon years trying, so the universal suggestion upon identifying the problem is to give up on solving it entirely. Despite this, some programmers have bosses who consider immediately giving up upon figuring out what the problem is to be unacceptable, because they don't understand that their programmers could spend the rest of their lives trying to solve it and be very, very unlikely to have made any progress.

**Griddlelol**

I think Dave is an elaborate troll committed to his persona. Instead of arguing you should just play along.

**Alcibiades**

There is no consistent lore. Sometimes Marines are unstoppable killing machines, and sometimes they aren't.

**Wolfblade**

It all depends on what the story calls for.

**Experiment 626**

Wolfblade wrote:
It all depends on what the story calls for.

Or rather, it all depends from who's point of view the story is being told from!

**Wolfblade**

Well, clearly Dave is the one forging the narrative, how dare his marines lose!

By the way, Dave's last name wouldn't happen to be "Ward" would it?

**Selym**

Not irl.