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"You want units that weren't a problem to get a pummeling with the nerfbat as collateral damage when you ham-fistedly take an ineffectual swat at the actual problem unit, out of some half-witted assumption that a gun must be costed in a vacuum. "

Not a vacuum. Compared to other guns of similar efficacy.

"Does that make Devastators (48" range) more durable than Jetbikes? "

On a per point basis, yes. But their inability to move and fire and being saddled with vastly inferior weapons kills them as a viable choice.

"And Scatterbikes would still be a problem unit."

I don't think so. But it would have to tested to find out.

"The Drop Pod is a force-multiplier that makes anything put in it vastly, vastly better. You want to bitch about your range? Your assault units' difficulty making it to melee? You've got a f***ing 35pt unit that erases all of those difficulties and it's overrated? "

Take all the non-skyhammer pods you want. My rhino borne lists will cut you to pieces. As will good Eldar players. As will good Tau players. As will good IG players. BA, on average, actually get worse in my opinion when you put them in pods. Being stranded on foot really sucks in 7th ed. So, yes, pods are highly, highly overrated.

Martel732 wrote:
"You want units that weren't a problem to get a pummeling with the nerfbat as collateral damage when you ham-fistedly take an ineffectual swat at the actual problem unit, out of some half-witted assumption that a gun must be costed in a vacuum. "

Not a vacuum. Compared to other guns of similar efficacy.

No. Obviously. Every single gun needs to have a single linear price defined for it that can never change. A heavy bolter on a BS2 Renegade Chimera obviously must cost the same as a heavy bolter on a BS4 Legion Superheavy.

Not to mention you've decided that a gun that's 1-2x as good as a scatter laser against every possible target is obviously worse, and that its price tag that hasn't been updated since 4th edition is obviously perfect.


You know what? F*** you guys. I'm done. I came here to attempt to discuss reasonable nerfs, not to attempt to explain why "does a specific thing better than Space Marines" isn't the gold standard for "overpowered".

And if you're done sneering at your drop pods my Grey Knights and Inquisitorial Henchmen would love to take them off you. They might actually get to do something for once.

"And if you're done sneering at your drop pods my Grey Knights and Inquisitorial Henchmen would love to take them off you. "

They would fair no better against Xeno firepower. Also, you are neglecting the fact that there are many, many lists you don't want to be close to on the first turn.

Martel732 wrote:
Nobody I play against ever uses the shuriken cannon. So I guess no one does want it. That's why scatterlaser should cost more.

I never see Wraithknights do anything worth their cost. They should cost less. See the bad logic?

jade_angel wrote:
I think of the three, I like the idea of S5 Scatterlasers the best.

The others, of course, would need some tweaking: this might be reasonable.

Scatterlaser: R36 S5 AP- Heavy 4
Shuriken Cannon: Unchanged (*)
Starcannon: R36 S7 AP2 Heavy 2
Brightlance: R48 S8 AP2 Heavy 1, Lance
Eldar Missile Launcher: Unchanged.

(*): Bladestorm would be reduced to AP3-on-a-6, but the shuricannon should stay Assault 3, not Heavy 3, because of issues for Harlequins and Corsairs if that changes. Most other platforms that can use it are Relentless anyway.

I'd have been tempted to make the Brightlance AP1 as well, but at that point it becomes obviously better than the Lascannon, rather than the tradeoff that it has now, where the Brightlance is better against AV14, while the Lascannon is better against AV12 and below. Also, the Scatterlaser is now AP- because seriously, do Boyz, Cultists and Gaunts need to be kicked in the butt more?

This seems very, very reasonable.

It retains the differences that make armies unique (Space Marines can have their Drop Pods which are definitely better than other dedicated transports, Eldar can have their specialised squads which is their shtick).

It would also mean that weapons choices would be more varied.

Sounds like a very good solution

I say nerf them as hard as 7th edition Orks and let them suffer for a few editions

SemperMortis wrote:
I say nerf them as hard as 7th edition Orks and let them suffer for a few editions

How about we don't?

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nobody I play against ever uses the shuriken cannon. So I guess no one does want it. That's why scatterlaser should cost more.

I never see Wraithknights do anything worth their cost. They should cost less. See the bad logic?

It was in response to nonsense post. Shuriken cannons have their place, as would the scatterlaser, even if the scatterlaser got a cost bump. As it is, the scatterlaser is a license to erase entire armies with little difficulty. They scrub open transports, kill most MCs, and kill infantry. All from 36" away.
Crazy.

I think the shuriken cannon should be a lot cheaper than the scatterlaser, as it is a lot more dangerous to use.

Martel732 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Nobody I play against ever uses the shuriken cannon. So I guess no one does want it. That's why scatterlaser should cost more.

I never see Wraithknights do anything worth their cost. They should cost less. See the bad logic?

It was in response to nonsense post. Shuriken cannons have their place, as would the scatterlaser, even if the scatterlaser got a cost bump. As it is, the scatterlaser is a license to erase entire armies with little difficulty. They scrub open transports, kill most MCs, and kill infantry. All from 36" away.
Crazy.

I think the shuriken cannon should be a lot cheaper than the scatterlaser, as it is a lot more dangerous to use.

I may have missed it earlier in the thread, but what's your response to the Strength 5 scatter laser idea? It makes the debate about increasing scatter laser cost irrelevant and gives scatter lasers a clearer niche. Plus we get that nifty scaling between scatter lasers, shuriken cannons, and (possibly s7?) star cannons. Upping the cost of scatter lasers would make them less problematic competitively, but it wouldn't completely fix them, and it would definitely hurt them as a viable option for non-problematic scatter platforms like guardian squads, falcons, and serpents. Making them S5 and leaving the price alone arguably does more to balance them in competitive lists (no insta-gibbing t3, no wounding t4 on 2s, no hurting AV12, etc.) without significantly impacting their usefulness on other platforms. My war walkers might not take them any more because I depend on them to be all-rounders, but my serpent and guardians would still take them.

EDIT: Also, drop pods are actually quite good. Less good for melee-centric Blood Angels specifically, but they're almost as good as a webway portal archon for a third of the cost. Or for none of the cost if they happen to be free. Plus, they're actually quite good at killing those 36" range scatbikes before they can kill you. Just drop next to them and sprinkle some bolter shots on the bikers. They're only as tough as marines, but they're worth more points when they die. And ignoring all that, drop pods are a great way to simply plop a 3HP AV12 obsec unit on any objective on the board, forcing your opponent to deal with the pod instead of your army.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
I say nerf them as hard as 7th edition Orks and let them suffer for a few editions

I started playing in 5th edition, and eldar were my first army. As I didn't spam seer councils, DAVU falcons, or fire dragons, I kind of feel like I've paid my dues.

S5 scatterlasers is worth a try as well.

I've found that eldar players simply reserve their bikes vs drop pods. Pods are strong, but not as strong as many xeno players claim. Pods completely fail if the alpha doesn't work more often than not.

Wyldhunt wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
I say nerf them as hard as 7th edition Orks and let them suffer for a few editions

I started playing in 5th edition, and eldar were my first army. As I didn't spam seer councils, DAVU falcons, or fire dragons, I kind of feel like I've paid my dues.

Nope, not even close

Let me know when your average to good units go up in price almost 50% (Killa Kanz) and your best unit becomes Bikes that have no special gimmick beyond being reasonably cost efficient.

Strength 5 scatterlaser, leave the starcannons at strength 6 unless you drop the range by a foot.

Eldar jetbikes should only give a 4+ save. Harlequin bikes are the exact same design and o my grant a 4+. Reaver jetbikes only grant a 5+ and all they are missing is the front hood.

Every eldar jetbikes should only increase a save by one. If you do this then the things that are supposed to kill them (autocannons and heavy bolters) will do so and also then balance out with shining spears (who have heavy aspect armor for the 3+) it is a win all around.

Wraithknight s need a slight price increase and lost "jump"

OR instead of drastically destroying Windriders we can just make the Scatterlasers 15 points and make their armor 4+ and call it a day?
It just seems like a lot of this thread is about venting and frustration rather than fixing the issue.

I have run my jetbikes as 4+ since I started in 5th. I have about 20 of them in my corsair armies. I dropped the strength to 5 when the decided to price them the same as shuriken cannons.

I like it at strength 5 because it becomes an actual anti horde weapon. With save 4+ the unit will actually have to jink if fired at by an autocannons or heavy bolter.

(The idea of an eldar jetbikes being slammed into head on by heavy bolter or autocannon shells and deflecting off is absurd in my opinion.)

Edit: just posting this to show I have no actual I'll intentions for eldar, I play them as my primary army.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Strength 5 scatterlaser, leave the starcannons at strength 6 unless you drop the range by a foot.

Eldar jetbikes should only give a 4+ save. Harlequin bikes are the exact same design and o my grant a 4+. Reaver jetbikes only grant a 5+ and all they are missing is the front hood.

Every eldar jetbikes should only increase a save by one. If you do this then the things that are supposed to kill them (autocannons and heavy bolters) will do so and also then balance out with shining spears (who have heavy aspect armor for the 3+) it is a win all around.

Wraithknight s need a slight price increase and lost "jump"

I like the idea of unifying Eldar Jetbike saves to 4+ across the board. Would mean you'd need to rework some things in the Dark Eldar codex as Reavers are already one of the best units they have, but TBH the Dark Eldar codex needs a bit of a rework anyway...

I also like the idea of a S7 24" Starcannon. Helps give it a niche while still keeping Bright Lances as AT. Plus, it would synergise well with Shuriken Cannons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
OR instead of drastically destroying Windriders we can just make the Scatterlasers 15 points and make their armor 4+ and call it a day?
It just seems like a lot of this thread is about venting and frustration rather than fixing the issue.

That would be a quick and dirty fix, but I can't help but feed dropping them to S5 would be a better option for army variety and generally different tactics employed by Eldar armies.

Oh, and just to say I'm an Eldar player too, so I've got a vested interest in not destroying Windriders.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I have run my jetbikes as 4+ since I started in 5th. I have about 20 of them in my corsair armies. I dropped the strength to 5 when the decided to price them the same as shuriken cannons.

I like it at strength 5 because it becomes an actual anti horde weapon. With save 4+ the unit will actually have to jink if fired at by an autocannons or heavy bolter.

(The idea of an eldar jetbikes being slammed into head on by heavy bolter or autocannon shells and deflecting off is absurd in my opinion.)

Edit: just posting this to show I have no actual I'll intentions for eldar, I play them as my primary army.

Corsair army? Have any pics

I wouldn't increase the reavers because their fluff is that they strip down their bikes for speed and handling. But their bike is only a +1 to save whereas the windrider are a +2. Just doesn't make thematic sense to be @ 3+ save to them.

I'll post them up tomorrow, I've only recently decided on a unifying theme. (Went with power rangers)

I have a combined total of around 6000 points of corsairs and a little over 2000 in harlequins...

S5 doesn't make sense because the weapon has BEEN S6. Just cost it appropriately.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
S5 doesn't make sense because the weapon has BEEN S6. Just cost it appropriately.

It also used to be D6 shots and had a special rule called Laser-lock. What's your point?
Statlines can be altered just like points costs can.
The DE Dissintegrator was a Str7 AP2 small blast for over 10yrs before they changed it to an AP2 Heavy bolter

Making Scatterlasers 15-20ppm is a good idea, but it doesn't solve as many issues as making them Str5.
Players will still choose the 15-20ppm Scatterlaser over a Star cannon or Shuricannon, but if Scatters are Str5, now the other 2 weapons are appealing.
It would create wider diversity of lists, which is always the best option.

-

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
S5 doesn't make sense because the weapon has BEEN S6. Just cost it appropriately.

It also used to be D6 shots and had a special rule called Laser-lock. What's your point?
Statlines can be altered just like points costs can.
The DE Dissintegrator was a Str7 AP2 small blast for over 10yrs before they changed it to an AP2 Heavy bolter

Making Scatterlasers 15-20ppm is a good idea, but it doesn't solve as many issues as making them Str5.
Players will still choose the 15-20ppm Scatterlaser over a Star cannon or Shuricannon, but if Scatters are Str5, now the other 2 weapons are appealing.
It would create wider diversity of lists, which is always the best option.

-

Actually it doesn't create diversity just like that. They don't NEED another anti-infantry weapon, so it wouldn't even be taken. You'd end up only seeing the other two weapons instead.
Think about it for a moment. Making them 15 points means you're choosing between 2 Scatterlasers or 3 Shuriken Cannons. THAT makes a choice. You either get 8 S6 shots with a foot more range or 9 shots with pseudo-rending.

StarCannon is a different matter. I don't even know the cost or the stats because I've only ever seen the former two.

Starcannon is a total victim of the scatterlaser and ranged D. AP 2 is quaint and underpowered for an eldar heavy weapon and two shots is low rof by eldar standards. I can't believe i was having to re-explain how absurd eldar are up above.

I'd like to see scatter lasers become s3 ap3, heavy 6. That way they'd still be relevant as infantry hunters but worth nothing against high toughness models and vehicles. Scatter lasers are far too good against a wide variety of targets which means you rarely see anything else.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
I'd like to see scatter lasers become s3 ap3, heavy 6. That way they'd still be relevant as infantry hunters but worth nothing against high toughness models and vehicles. Scatter lasers are far too good against a wide variety of targets which means you rarely see anything else.

That's almost TWICE as many dead marines per scatterlaser per turn... And almost 50% more effective against Tyranid T6sv3+ MCs. Literally the worst "fix" proposition in this thread...

And it becomes pure trash vs Orks. It's 0.89 dead Orks per gun, and 0.89 dead marines per gun, as opposed to 2.22 Orks and 0.74 marines. If those marines or orks get cover, this gun becomes even worse. The current scatterlaser inflicts 0.44 wounds on 3+ T6 and the new one inflicts 0.44 as well.

Martel732 wrote:
And it becomes pure trash vs Orks. It's 0.89 dead Orks per gun, and 0.89 dead marines per gun, as opposed to 2.22 Orks and 0.74 marines. If those marines or orks get cover, this gun becomes even worse. The current scatterlaser inflicts 0.44 wounds on 3+ T6 and the new one inflicts 0.44 as well.

Read again - he wants it to be HEAVY 6!

nou wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And it becomes pure trash vs Orks. It's 0.89 dead Orks per gun, and 0.89 dead marines per gun, as opposed to 2.22 Orks and 0.74 marines. If those marines or orks get cover, this gun becomes even worse. The current scatterlaser inflicts 0.44 wounds on 3+ T6 and the new one inflicts 0.44 as well.

Read again - he wants it to be HEAVY 6!

Didn't see the 6. That's too much AP 3. Still a trashy gun vs Orks, and too good vs meqs and 3+ MCs.

Martel732 wrote:

nou wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And it becomes pure trash vs Orks. It's 0.89 dead Orks per gun, and 0.89 dead marines per gun, as opposed to 2.22 Orks and 0.74 marines. If those marines or orks get cover, this gun becomes even worse. The current scatterlaser inflicts 0.44 wounds on 3+ T6 and the new one inflicts 0.44 as well.

Read again - he wants it to be HEAVY 6!

Didn't see the 6. That's too much AP 3. Still a trashy gun vs Orks, and too good vs meqs and 3+ MCs.

Sounds pretty bad against MC's at S3.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

nou wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And it becomes pure trash vs Orks. It's 0.89 dead Orks per gun, and 0.89 dead marines per gun, as opposed to 2.22 Orks and 0.74 marines. If those marines or orks get cover, this gun becomes even worse. The current scatterlaser inflicts 0.44 wounds on 3+ T6 and the new one inflicts 0.44 as well.

Read again - he wants it to be HEAVY 6!

Didn't see the 6. That's too much AP 3. Still a trashy gun vs Orks, and too good vs meqs and 3+ MCs.

Sounds pretty bad against MC's at S3.

Just do the math. It is 0.65 wound a turn vs current 0.43. Ap3 removes one entire roll from equation.

nou wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

nou wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And it becomes pure trash vs Orks. It's 0.89 dead Orks per gun, and 0.89 dead marines per gun, as opposed to 2.22 Orks and 0.74 marines. If those marines or orks get cover, this gun becomes even worse. The current scatterlaser inflicts 0.44 wounds on 3+ T6 and the new one inflicts 0.44 as well.

Read again - he wants it to be HEAVY 6!

Didn't see the 6. That's too much AP 3. Still a trashy gun vs Orks, and too good vs meqs and 3+ MCs.

Sounds pretty bad against MC's at S3.

Just do the math. It is 0.65 wound a turn vs current 0.43. Ap3 removes one entire roll from equation.

Seems a bit far to call that too good.

It is a single 10pt gun. For a price of a Carnifex you can get four or five, depending on platform. And this entire thread is about how even weaker than this "fixed" scatterlasers are to good for everything and this "fix" makes them better against everything without AV, T7 or 2+.

So everyone (on the receiving end) hates Scatter Lasers by the look of it.
Since Dark Eldar Reavers had their armour reduced to a 5+ in the 5th edition codex it has irked me that they didn't drop Windriders to a 4+

Also I remember in 3rd Edition the Big Shootas on Ork bikes had their range cut in half (from 36" to 18")
Would that be enough if they did both of those to the jetbike?