Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
At a glance, any "value" to be found in the campaign versus retail would have to come from stretch goals and/or Exclusives.
That's the KS trap; price for the baseline and things blow up, you end up possibly owing far more in materials to each backer than you can easily of comfortably afford, even with the increased funding. Set the price of the tiers high enough to account for those things, and people will whine about the lack of 'value' until some arbitrary point.
During a campaign late last year, the creators had a graphic on the page showing how their $300 tier had $900 worth of content (so let's call it around $600 even as CSI's prices) and people still complained there 'wasn't enough value'.
The $100 tier was closer to $375 in 'retail value', and that wasn't enough. And I don't think either number reflected a number of KS exclusives the tiers got (some shared, some not).
That said, being at roughly 1/2 the funding goal, and needing to get to ~3 times the current amount just to upgrade the rulebook from B&W to colour probably isn't helping. It's hard to be enthusiastic to need to triple the funding just to colour the pages of the booklet.
Edit: of course, campaigns can choose to offer a target goal at a set price with minor stretch goals, but no, backers these days want KD:M and Zombicide 'omg for $X00 you get a gajillion minis!' and anything less is somehow an affront.
Something that I've come to be frustrated with a number of communities over.
Just because it's not on par with the best, almost nothing is ever good enough.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 18:58:39
Forar wrote: At a glance, any "value" to be found in the campaign versus retail would have to come from stretch goals and/or Exclusives.
That's the KS trap; price for the baseline and things blow up, you end up possibly owing far more in materials to each backer than you can easily of comfortably afford, even with the increased funding. Set the price of the tiers high enough to account for those things, and people will whine about the lack of 'value' until some arbitrary point.
During a campaign late last year, the creators had a graphic on the page showing how their $300 tier had $900 worth of content (so let's call it around $600 even as CSI's prices) and people still complained there 'wasn't enough value'.
The $100 tier was closer to $375 in 'retail value', and that wasn't enough. And I don't think either number reflected a number of KS exclusives the tiers got (some shared, some not).
That said, being at roughly 1/2 the funding goal, and needing to get to ~3 times the current amount just to upgrade the rulebook from B&W to colour probably isn't helping. It's hard to be enthusiastic to need to triple the funding just to colour the pages of the booklet.
Edit: of course, campaigns can choose to offer a target goal at a set price with minor stretch goals, but no, backers these days want KD:M and Zombicide 'omg for $X00 you get a gajillion minis!' and anything less is somehow an affront.
Something that I've come to be frustrated with a number of communities over.
Just because it's not on par with the best, almost nothing is ever good enough.
problem is with this project right off the back you are paying twice what the game is worth on a very generous level, most similar board games at their highest are listed at $50 this game is twice that and its a stretch to say its even worth half that amount and because of the high cost of the game compared to retail cost, that has hurt them when it comes to investors, those who buy to sell for more later.
and right now it seems the pledges have stalled, this game will most likely not fund and the big bad meanie RRT backers will be to blame.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
It's way too early to say but people have brought up a lot of relevant data regarding the complete lack of foresight Palladium had in promoting the game. Isn't Kevin's updates across the Palladium mailing group enough? Board Game Geek? Why would we promote there? Game play examples? We said it was AWESOME isn't that enough?
We can't tell you about the mechanics because it's a secret like the Colonel's eleven secret herbs and spices but the Wayne, NMI, and Kevin think it's awesome in a non-specific sort of nebulous way.
Are you ready to move your army men next to each other and roll for mega-damage body blocks? Are you ready to roll with the punch to prevent mega damage? Are you really expecting something beyond a watered down version of the RPG rules?
I mean, it could surprise but the silence in face of a few honest questions regarding playability, reviews, thoughts, concrete details is deafening, no?
It has an MRSP of $100, so presumably we'd see it on CSI (if they even picked it up) for $70 or so.
I'm looking at Imperial Assault, which is $100 MRSP ($75 on CSI), and contains 34 minis (as opposed to 22, which I believe the mini count here is?). And more dice, a valuable license, I'm sure some will argue 'better minis', more cards(?), etc, etc, etc, this isn't a perfect comparison, but a ballpark.
That said, I'm guessing FFG is producing in numbers high enough (and has a lucrative enough license to justify that more easily). If Carmen can't get FFG's economy of scale breakpoint, yeah, I can see it ending up being slightly more expensive than it might be otherwise.
This isn't going to be sitting on a million store shelves, most likely. It's a niche game for an existing niche product. Sure, it's more expensive than some other games of it's rough size/scope.
That doesn't make it some kind of nefarious or sinister conspiracy.
And finally, you're not getting it, I'm not getting it, who cares? There are plenty of legit critiques to offer up, but 'it's too expensive'? He set a price, and people can choose to pay it or not. Acting like "it's too expensive" is some kind of affront to consumers is a waste of our time. And it's a catch-22. If it was priced more aggressively I just know you'd be proclaiming that he was under-valuing the product and couldn't possibly make enough to pay for all those molds and plastic and cardboard, but it went a little high, and instead of seeing it as him having some contingency funds included, somehow this is a big deal.
Balancing what people receive versus what they're willing to pay is only fruitful when those people are willing to pay it. We know for a fact you're not, so 'omg it's too expensive' is possibly the least valuable line of critique you can follow.
Like, people have complained about the massive delivery target, but that seems like an improvement over claiming it'll be done in 6 or 7 months. People have complained about the language indicating that not all backers will necessarily get their boxes before retail or convention sales, but... that's not a requirement for Kickstarter. I applaud him at least being up front about it. That kind of transparency is pretty laudable, trying to make it a negative (as some are) feels like just trying to turn everything into some kind of mark against the campaign.
Again, I'm not backing, I don't want it, but sheesh, let's not become 'that guy'. There are legit points of critique to level here, but it doesn't help ones case to seem to be grasping at straws.
Like, who cares if the game is a little more expensive than some other options, didn't you (Rick) find some campaign killer that Kickstarter will be using to shut this gak down asap? How's that coming along?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/09 19:35:03
I mean, it could surprise but the silence in face of a few honest questions regarding playability, reviews, thoughts, concrete details is deafening, no?
"I was led to believe that this would be a Palladium product, and as such there would be no need for concrete answers."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 19:38:15
Forar wrote: It has an MRSP of $100, so presumably we'd see it on CSI (if they even picked it up) for $70 or so.
I'm looking at Imperial Assault, which is $100 MRSP ($75 on CSI), and contains 34 minis (as opposed to 22, which I believe the mini count here is?). And more dice, a valuable license, I'm sure some will argue 'better minis', more cards(?), etc, etc, etc, this isn't a perfect comparison, but a ballpark.
That said, I'm guessing FFG is producing in numbers high enough (and has a lucrative enough license to justify that more easily). If Carmen can't get FFG's economy of scale breakpoint, yeah, I can see it ending up being slightly more expensive than it might be otherwise.
This isn't going to be sitting on a million store shelves, most likely. It's a niche game for an existing niche product. Sure, it's more expensive than some other games of it's rough size/scope.
That doesn't make it some kind of nefarious or sinister conspiracy.
And finally, you're not getting it, I'm not getting it, who cares? There are plenty of legit critiques to offer up, but 'it's too expensive'? He set a price, and people can choose to pay it or not. Acting like "it's too expensive" is some kind of affront to consumers is a waste of our time. And it's a catch-22. If it was priced more aggressively I just know you'd be proclaiming that he was under-valuing the product and couldn't possibly make enough to pay for all those molds and plastic and cardboard, but it went a little high, and instead of seeing it as him having some contingency funds included, somehow this is a big deal.
Balancing what people receive versus what they're willing to pay is only fruitful when those people are willing to pay it. We know for a fact you're not, so 'omg it's too expensive' is possibly the least valuable line of critique you can follow.
actually Forar my price point is based on similar board games like zombie 15' (although you get over a 100 minis in that game, mostly zombies), Axis & Allies, etc. etc. miniature games you can go up to the $100 mark but even thouse have more miniatures then what RBG is offering, this game will not be sitting on many if any game shelves and can see it hitting clearance down to $20 on CSI and such.
alos Kickstarter is slow why I also sent said info to a government agency, they have very strict rules and such about certain things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 19:36:35
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
So, Rogue Heroes set up an LLC next door to Palladium for reasons of potential currency fluctuations in the Canadian Dollar? I mean, they put that up with a straight face? And people are defending it with a straight face as well? There's not red flags going up there's red flares and rockets flying up all over the place.
Sorry, technical difficulties uploading a game play video? Backers can look forward to technical difficulties in regards to communication as well. Sorry, the internet was out and I caught Chinese New Year from a convention holding back production of crud but big things I won't tell you about are Kevining out this year!
Did I get the future updates right?
I feel bad because Palladium is doing such a mad scramble to do all the basic things 99% of board game kickstarters have been doing for the past 2-3 years. Apparently Kevin expected funds to roll in ala Robotech kickstarter and for the first stretch goal to be cleared by now. They found out they have to go into the trenches outside the Palladium multi-verse and look for backing from board gamers in general and that's scary for them. Palladium just discovered they've generated enough ill will in general to be unable to produce a lousy $100K kickstarter the first day and that's a bit humbling for the old Kevster who just realized his actions have REAL WORLD (i.e. financial) consequences to his brand.
Good luck to them generating interest among gamers in general who, yeah, when they think Palladium they think loused up $1.44 million dollar kickstarter that has left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Kevin's just had the wake up call that the Rifts IP is worth a fantastic $50k from the fanfriends and they now begin the long arduous journey to try to shill and squeeze another $50K (more or less) out of the generally disinterested gamers abroad.
well on a side note if RH did set up a LLC in Michigan that means they are going to to get hit big time by taxes from the IRS "if" the project funds, furthermore the LLC is a seperate item just for the kickstarter, that there should be ringing alarm bells all over the place because it protects the parent company while leaving something they can just drop and nothing will come of it., but on a good point for Carmen it looks like the project will not fund.
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
Forar wrote: It has an MRSP of $100, so presumably we'd see it on CSI (if they even picked it up) for $70 or so.
I'm looking at Imperial Assault, which is $100 MRSP ($75 on CSI), and contains 34 minis (as opposed to 22, which I believe the mini count here is?). And more dice, a valuable license, I'm sure some will argue 'better minis', more cards(?), etc, etc, etc, this isn't a perfect comparison, but a ballpark.
That said, I'm guessing FFG is producing in numbers high enough (and has a lucrative enough license to justify that more easily). If Carmen can't get FFG's economy of scale breakpoint, yeah, I can see it ending up being slightly more expensive than it might be otherwise.
This isn't going to be sitting on a million store shelves, most likely. It's a niche game for an existing niche product. Sure, it's more expensive than some other games of it's rough size/scope.
That doesn't make it some kind of nefarious or sinister conspiracy.
And finally, you're not getting it, I'm not getting it, who cares? There are plenty of legit critiques to offer up, but 'it's too expensive'? He set a price, and people can choose to pay it or not. Acting like "it's too expensive" is some kind of affront to consumers is a waste of our time. And it's a catch-22. If it was priced more aggressively I just know you'd be proclaiming that he was under-valuing the product and couldn't possibly make enough to pay for all those molds and plastic and cardboard, but it went a little high, and instead of seeing it as him having some contingency funds included, somehow this is a big deal.
Balancing what people receive versus what they're willing to pay is only fruitful when those people are willing to pay it. We know for a fact you're not, so 'omg it's too expensive' is possibly the least valuable line of critique you can follow.
Like, people have complained about the massive delivery target, but that seems like an improvement over claiming it'll be done in 6 or 7 months. People have complained about the language indicating that not all backers will necessarily get their boxes before retail or convention sales, but... that's not a requirement for Kickstarter. I applaud him at least being up front about it. That kind of transparency is pretty laudable, trying to make it a negative (as some are) feels like just trying to turn everything into some kind of mark against the campaign.
Again, I'm not backing, I don't want it, but sheesh, let's not become 'that guy'. There are legit points of critique to level here, but it doesn't help ones case to seem to be grasping at straws.
Like, who cares if the game is a little more expensive than some other options, didn't you (Rick) find some campaign killer that Kickstarter will be using to shut this gak down asap? How's that coming along?
That was an excellent post!
Exalted!
And it should be required reading here, and should also perhaps inform everyone's posting moving forward too?
I exalted Forar's post, as well. At least the KS is being realistic. Carmen is not CMON, so can't provide the economy of scale that CMON (and FFG) have. Additionally, backers looking for SG's rather than the IP might (would) be less supportive of the project than the fan faithful. Seems from the KS, Carmen can't promise (and that's all that KS and SG's are, promises) more than what he's showing in the KS. Were he do to promise CMON-levels of SG's, the project would *definitely* fail, dragging down the newbie KS backers whom we'd probably want around KS. There will *always* be backers who won't listen, and I think KS is at a point where, if these people leave KS, nobody will notice, and KS might become a better place. Of course, failure is still failure, and Carmen's transparency, while it may be a consolation prize to the faithful, doesn't change how risky this KS is.
EDIT: fwiw, I'm seeing more KS games affording and thus only print enough copies for backers and replacement parts, rounded up to minimum quantities for reduced cost of scale. If the project succeeds, the first printing might (is likely to) only be sold through the Palladium web store. In the case there's enough demand, Carmen might hold another KS for a second printing.
EDIT EDIT: Carmen's not naming the manufacturer. Forget what I said.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/05/09 22:12:40
I think everyone's points are very true.. besides looking at the games themselves look at the company associated with them.
Fantasy flight games.. solid made games that you can tell are play tested, clear notice where things are in the pipe line and usually ships things on time.
Palladium Games .. Out dated rules with newer things overpowered to make people want to buy it with no concern of balance. .. weekly updates of we
are working on things... but never on time.. just "we are working on it"
Financials are a big thing also.. How many times have we heard Palladium has almost went bankrupt.. It would concern me as investor and one reason
I was under the impression that Ninja division was doing the RTT campaign. Always thought it would be handled more like a CMON project until they jumped
ship or was told too..
If someone has a bad track record and your associated with that person.. what are people going to think..
3. Head to Head Mode: Two players do away with the board and miniatures to compete in a vicious, face to face card game to see who comes out victorious. A fun, fast, abstract card game that is easy to grasp and takes only 15-20 minutes. Can be played almost anywhere.
Is something I may have been interested in. Having a passing interest in RIFTS but no interest in a board game. I would think that having a card game in the box means that the rules are going to be fairly diluted.
"“
@ End Times: I have a manufacturer choose, have my price quotes from them and I will be ready to go once all the final details are sorted. But I will not state who I will be using here, its bad industry practice to do so.
May 9 2017 on Rifts® Board Game"
Holy fartballs. It's now bad practice to tell who is making the figures?
Rogue Heroes Publishing Creator 6 minutes ago
@ End Times: I have a manufacturer choose, have my price quotes from them and I will be ready to go once all the final details are sorted. But I will not state who I will be using here, its bad industry practice to do so.
Really? I mean really? He certainly learned his transparency from good old Unca Kevster. I can just imagine the average kickstarter backer that has no interest in gRifts as a fanboy of the IP thinking the creator was on a solid footing with his ideas of where he was going with this endeavor. I have a manufacturer lined up but it's a secret. Why do you need to know? Just give me the money! These questions are being asked point blank because we've learned from another certain kickstarter to ask these questions BEFORE money is handed over. The obfuscation on DAY TWO is very telling. I mean the hurdles to come and already this kickstarter is getting uncomfortable.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: "“
@ End Times: I have a manufacturer choose, have my price quotes from them and I will be ready to go once all the final details are sorted. But I will not state who I will be using here, its bad industry practice to do so.
May 9 2017 on Rifts® Board Game"
Holy fartballs. It's now bad practice to tell who is making the figures?
Prodos Unicast is my guess. They're a manufacturer with as bad a rep for dragging people around for years as Palladium and therefore a perfect match.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sining wrote: Someone should try posting that in the KS comments and see if the white knights understand sarcasm
Feel free. I won't send you a Palladium style cease and desist letter for infringing on my post's copyright. Heck, I didn't even TM the hell out of it like the Palladium weekly totally not the same company Rifts Board Game updates.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 22:07:14
Also glad Carmen is not arsed out about potential shipping complications regarding the UK leaving the EU. Hell with it, I'll cross that bridge in two years. If I even care in two years, by then I'll have blamed Robotech for all my woes and be letting Kevin post updates in the Palladium newsletter to the effect that Robotech AND the gRifts Bored Game are BOTH never far from our minds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 22:31:20
TwoGunBob wrote: So, Rogue Heroes set up an LLC next door to Palladium for reasons of potential currency fluctuations in the Canadian Dollar? I mean, they put that up with a straight face? And people are defending it with a straight face as well? There's not red flags going up there's red flares and rockets flying up all over the place.
Sorry, technical difficulties uploading a game play video? Backers can look forward to technical difficulties in regards to communication as well. Sorry, the internet was out and I caught Chinese New Year from a convention holding back production of crud but big things I won't tell you about are Kevining out this year!
Did I get the future updates right?
I feel bad because Palladium is doing such a mad scramble to do all the basic things 99% of board game kickstarters have been doing for the past 2-3 years. Apparently Kevin expected funds to roll in ala Robotech kickstarter and for the first stretch goal to be cleared by now.
You don't understand the mindset of palladium superfans which trickles down from genre redefining game genius Kevin himself. Why should there be any consequences from Robotech when they're still working on it four years with nothing to show for the last two years even when it was 98% done and ready to manufacture within 40 days? Why should Palladium change their rules when one of the best "features" is the (mandatory) ability to change the rules just to make them function as written? Clearly YOU are the unreasonable one for suggesting something is wrong.
Rogue Heroes Publishing Creator 5 minutes ago
@ George H. Webster III: Will not post info here, that is bad practice and which might result in problems for my manufacturer. As I fear that may be why others are asking. Sorry.
and who is the paranoid ones again ?
also it appears they are already losing some backers who were interested in the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 22:41:26
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
ced1106 wrote: Carmen is not CMON, so can't provide the economy of scale that CMON (and FFG) have. Additionally, backers looking for SG's rather than the IP might (would) be less supportive of the project than the fan faithful. Seems from the KS, Carmen can't promise (and that's all that KS and SG's are, promises) more than what he's showing in the KS. Were he do to promise CMON-levels of SG's, the project would *definitely* fail, dragging down the newbie KS backers whom we'd probably want around KS.
$100 is $100, whether I give it to CMoN or PB. When I back something like Zombicide or World of Smog, I'm pre-paying full MSRP for something I can get at a very heavily-discounted price a year later. The difference in the amount paid, coupled with the risk by prepaying needs to be made up via SGs to cover the difference.
ced1106 wrote: Carmen is not CMON, so can't provide the economy of scale that CMON (and FFG) have. Additionally, backers looking for SG's rather than the IP might (would) be less supportive of the project than the fan faithful. Seems from the KS, Carmen can't promise (and that's all that KS and SG's are, promises) more than what he's showing in the KS. Were he do to promise CMON-levels of SG's, the project would *definitely* fail, dragging down the newbie KS backers whom we'd probably want around KS.
$100 is $100, whether I give it to CMoN or PB. When I back something like Zombicide or World of Smog, I'm pre-paying full MSRP for something I can get at a very heavily-discounted price a year later. The difference in the amount paid, coupled with the risk by prepaying needs to be made up via SGs to cover the difference.
SG's ? lol the only one they have up there they will not meet, as it goes it looks like the project will not fund, since the bulk of backers have already joined and the game is not appealing enough to the random gamer who backs such things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/09 22:43:25
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project.
(although they will say it won't cause they are too fast and they will catch it. 
)
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
Heck, I didn't even 
